We bid a fond farewell to Leslie Loble as Deputy Secretary in the department in this special episode recorded before Leslie's retirement in July. In conversation with Kelly Stephens, Director of Strategic Education Reform and Policy, Leslie reflects on some highlights and key learnings from 20 years driving education policy reform in New South Wales. Leslie also reflects on some key lessons education could take from responses to COVID-19, and her hopes for the future of education in Australia. Transcript available at https://bit.ly/Edspresso_14.