Mel and Michael talk about how to foster a church culture which minimizes the chances of catastrophic moral failures. How can we encourage people to confess their sins without losing the deterrence associated with facing consequences? Can we even control consequences? How does humility promote strong negotiating positions? The conversation finishes with a survey of King Hezekiah’s pride and what we can learn about pastors who are too proud of their churches. What does it look like when the kingdom loses and your church wins?