Below the Surface

Episode 50: The Audit System, a Great Idea Under Pressure

Fifty episodes in, Gunnar and Hammond look back at their favourite conversations before tackling a big question: is the contaminated land site audit system working as well as it could?

Both support the scheme and value the expertise auditors bring. But their experiences, and Gunnar’s conversations with around 15 auditors and senior consultants, raise questions about how audits are requested, conducted and supported.

In this episode:

• When is an audit needed? 
• The pressure on auditors. 
• The cost of excessive conservatism. 
• Consistency and accountability. 
• What could improve? 

There are frustrations, a few laughs and plenty of respect for the auditors who help solve difficult problems. The aim is to improve a valuable system and make technical outcomes the centre of the conversation.

Have a different perspective? We welcome feedback from auditors, consultants, councils and regulators. If you work with the scheme and would like to join the discussion, get in touch.

Thanks for listening to our fiftieth episode. If you enjoy Below the Surface, share it with a colleague.

Episodes mentioned:

#35 The PFAS Heath Advice 

#45 The Disclaimer 

#19 The Inventor 

#11 The Sampling Evolution  

#16 The Sparrow in the Lead Mine 

#27 The Chronicles of an Auditor with Rod Hardwood 

Links:

Thomas Midgley 

Eddie the Eagle making Olympic history!

Eric Moussambani 

Elizabeth Swaney 

The episode was recorded on 9 October 2026

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The necessary disclaimer: The views, thoughts, and opinions expressed in this Podcast are the speakers’ own. They do not necessarily represent the views, thoughts, and opinions of 4Pillars Environmental Consulting Pty Ltd or any Client, Supplier or other party related to 4Pillars or the speakers. 

(c) Gunnar Haid and James Hammond

What makes a good regulator?

Gunnar and Hammond are joined for the second time by Jason Scarborough, former NSW EPA officer and founder of JS Regulatory Services and Echidna, to talk about how regulation should actually work.

They discuss behaviour change, regulatory transparency, poorly designed KPIs, explain the term "regulatory capture", the “fit and proper person” test and why vague regulatory language can create problems.

This episode is particularly relevant to regulators and anyone in a position of regulation or enforcement, but also to consultants and businesses that regularly deal with regulators.

There is also some discussion of surveillance technology, AI, Homer Simpson, Star Trek and the question of how much it would take to bribe a regulator.

Jason Scarborough - Echidna | LinkedIn

The episode was recorded on 4 September 2026

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The necessary disclaimer: The views, thoughts, and opinions expressed in this Podcast are the speakers’ own. They do not necessarily represent the views, thoughts, and opinions of 4Pillars Environmental Consulting Pty Ltd or any Client, Supplier or other party related to 4Pillars or the speakers. 

(c) Gunnar Haid and James Hammond

What makes something worth keeping, and who gets to decide?

In this episode of our The Basics Series, Gunnar and Hammond talk with heritage specialist Dr MacLaren North.

They cover what heritage actually means, the differences between built, archaeological and Aboriginal cultural heritage, how heritage significance is assessed, and why the process can sometimes be surprisingly subjective.

They also look at how heritage considerations affect development, why getting specialist advice early matters, and whether an old building is genuinely significant or simply in need of maintenance.

A practical and surprisingly entertaining introduction to the world of heritage.

AS4482-1999 and 2005 withdrawn | ALGA

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The necessary disclaimer: The views, thoughts, and opinions expressed in this Podcast are the speakers’ own. They do not necessarily represent the views, thoughts, and opinions of 4Pillars Environmental Consulting Pty Ltd or any Client, Supplier or other party related to 4Pillars or the speakers. 

(c) Gunnar Haid and James Hammond

Who keeps environmental professionals honest, and what happens when they get it wrong?

Gunnar and James open with a deceptively simple question: would you take a guaranteed $50,000 or risk it on a coin toss for $1 million? Their answers lead to a revealing conversation about risk, certainty, running a business and how personal circumstances shape financial decisions.

Then the episode switches to newly appointed EIANZ President Fiona Gainsford about the growing influence of professional certification in the environmental industry. A frank discussion about professionalism, accountability and who sets the standards for the environmental industry.

They discuss ethics, complaints and disciplinary action, conflicts of interest, misuse of certification seals, and whether the CEnvP system now holds considerable power over environmental professionals and their careers.

They also push Fiona on some pointed questions: why the EIANZ stayed quiet during the asbestos in mulch saga, whether certification seals are vulnerable to misuse, how conflicts of interest are handled in practice, and whether an unpaid volunteer board should hold this much sway over people's livelihoods. 

BBC Audio | More or Less | Would you take £50,000 or a 50/50 chance of £1m?

Proposed AS ISO 18400-106 Soil Quality – Sampling

Tony Albert - Wikipedia

Tony Albert: Not a Souvenir | MCA Australia

www.eianz.org

www.cenvp.org

EIANZ peer review guidelines

Episode #14 The Honest Truth

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The necessary disclaimer: The views, thoughts, and opinions expressed in this Podcast are the speakers’ own. They do not necessarily represent the views, thoughts, and opinions of 4Pillars Environmental Consulting Pty Ltd or any Client, Supplier or other party related to 4Pillars or the speakers. 

(c) Gunnar Haid and James Hammond

What does a career in the environmental industry actually look like, and how do you know when it is time for a change? That change can range from minor adjustment in your life and your expectations and goals to a big one like changing jobs or even careers altogether.

Gunnar and Hammond are joined by career coach Kellie Guenther to discuss career pathways, professional development, leadership, mentoring and workplace culture. 

They also explore the pressures facing young professionals, why the first job can shape an entire career, and why working in the environmental industry may involve fewer dolphins and butterflies than expected. 

Links:

EPA Updates: Regulatory, licensing, policy and legislative updates | EPA 

PFAS Position Statement 

Asbestos in Recovered Fines

EPA Response to OCSE paper

Free Asbestos Waste Disposal for households

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The necessary disclaimer: The views, thoughts, and opinions expressed in this Podcast are the speakers’ own. They do not necessarily represent the views, thoughts, and opinions of 4Pillars Environmental Consulting Pty Ltd or any Client, Supplier or other party related to 4Pillars or the speakers. 

(c) Gunnar Haid and James Hammond

Disclaimers in our reports. Useless fluff or necessary ass covering? 

Who better to discuss this than Sarah Mansfield (LinkedIn) who is returning to Below the Surface and almost immediately raises the bar for all future lawyer and engineer jokes. Sarah, Gunnar and Hammond tackle P&O cruise insults, ALGA glory, puppies, and why a useful “How to Read This Report” section may be better than hiding AI created legal fog at the back.

Other subjects: Report reliance, executive summaries, confused clients, angry clients, and why “nobody other than the Client can rely on this report” is not quite the magic spell consultants hope it is (spoiler: don't bother with that statement).

Sarah's first appearance on BTS

HWLE Lawyers

H2coco poppers pulled from Woolies shelves due to plastic straws - Inside Waste

Coal companies to reap billions more in taxpayer diesel subsidies as Labor approves new mining 

The episode was recorded on 16 June 2026

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The necessary disclaimer: The views, thoughts, and opinions expressed in this Podcast are the speakers’ own. They do not necessarily represent the views, thoughts, and opinions of 4Pillars Environmental Consulting Pty Ltd or any Client, Supplier or other party related to 4Pillars or the speakers. 

(c) Gunnar Haid and James Hammond

In Episode #30 The Duplicate, Gunnar famously declared that duplicate soil samples in heterogeneous fill are useless. Risk assessor Belle Casement of Terravale Consulting heard the episode… and decided Gunnar needed correcting. 😲

In this nerd-out episode, they discuss QA/QC, dodgy duplicates, lab uncertainty, conservative risk assessments, and whether the typical QC sections in contaminated land reports are actually science or just expensive pseudo scientific fluff we do to please regulators. 

Gunnar briefly ponders writing his own version of the ASC NEPM and re-introduces the term Quality Theatre in hope of getting it officially introduced into the Miriam Webster next year. 

They also get into lead, vapours, CRM samples, rinsates, trip blanks and upper confidence limits, with a completely unnecessary but somehow relevant detour into Henry VIII and Scientology. Nobody backs down, several sacred cows get kicked over, while Hammond tries hard to keep the two fighters apart and sometimes even dares to enter the ring himself. 

BTS Episode #30: The Duplicate - the OG duplicate episode

BTS Episode #11: he Sampling Evolution - Ross McFarland

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The necessary disclaimer: The views, thoughts, and opinions expressed in this Podcast are the speakers’ own. They do not necessarily represent the views, thoughts, and opinions of 4Pillars Environmental Consulting Pty Ltd or any Client, Supplier or other party related to 4Pillars or the speakers. 

(c) Gunnar Haid and James Hammond

Hammond relives his time as a representative for Australia in international biodiversity negotiations at COP13 of the Convention on Biological Diversity. But before that a few updates, a hint for auditors and Gunnar almost completely loses it while talking about one of the latest EPA announcements leading to a most epic Gu-rant.

Links:

Clarence Coal mine penalty

Constitutional heads of power.

'Getting to Yes'.

Never Split the Difference.

Rapport - The Four Ways to Read People.

Sam Harris | #132 - Freeing the Hostages with Chris Voss

Professional AS Soils Short Courses - Southern Cross University

Recorded on 2 April 2026

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The necessary disclaimer: The views, thoughts, and opinions expressed in this Podcast are the speakers’ own. They do not necessarily represent the views, thoughts, and opinions of 4Pillars Environmental Consulting Pty Ltd or any Client, Supplier or other party related to 4Pillars or the speakers. 

(c) Gunnar Haid and James Hammond

Microplastics: The Invisible Problem (or is it?)

Brooke Kelly from Reditus joins Gunnar and James to unpack microplastics. From penguin carcasses and seal scat (that's science code for poo) to human exposure, they explore where microplastics come from, how they are measured, and why they are everywhere. There is a lot of hype surrounding microplastics and some evidence of ecological harm exists, but human health impacts remain largely observational. They tackle analytical limitations, media-driven panic versus scientific uncertainty, and the parallels with PFAS. 

The episode lands on a pragmatic note: while the science evolves, a precautionary approach and simple exposure reduction strategies are worth considering.

Links from the episode:

NEJM: https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2309822

https://shirtloadsofscience.libsyn.com/prof-michaela-lucas-465

Broadscale microplastic assessment | EPA

https://aahms.org/publications/microplastics-precaution-and-biomonitoring-needed/

https://theconversation.com/scientists-may-be-overestimating-the-amount-of-microplastics-in-the-environment-and-the-culprit-is-lab-gloves-258545

Below the Surface: The PFAS Health Advice

Recorded on 17 April 2026

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The necessary disclaimer: The views, thoughts, and opinions expressed in this Podcast are the speakers’ own. They do not necessarily represent the views, thoughts, and opinions of 4Pillars Environmental Consulting Pty Ltd or any Client, Supplier or other party related to 4Pillars or the speakers. 

(c) Gunnar Haid and James Hammond

Artificial intelligence has gone from curiosity to daily tool almost overnight. 

In this episode, Gunnar and James sit down with AI consultant Alex Rankin who spent over 25 years in senior roles across the Australian Public Service before turning her focus to helping environmental consultancies figure out where AI actually fits into their workflows. Together they cut through the hype and talk about what AI can actually do for environmental professionals right now.

In this episode:

• What LLMs, generative AI, agentic AI, and AGI actually mean, and which ones matter for your practice right now
• Why AI is better thought of as a fast intern than a consultant (for now)
• What environmental consultants are actually using AI for (and what they're still struggling with)
• The hallucination problem (Gunnar calls it lying) and the cross-checking trick that helps
• How to train an AI tool and what "training" actually means in practice
• A practical framework for dipping a toe in without blowing your budget or your deadline
• Why Claude, ChatGPT, and Gemini are not interchangeable and when to use which

This episode was recorded on 6 March 2026.

Book a meeting with Alex: https://meetings-ap1.hubspot.com/a/driftwood-discovery

ALGA launches Special Interest Group for AI

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The necessary disclaimer: The views, thoughts, and opinions expressed in this Podcast are the speakers’ own. They do not necessarily represent the views, thoughts, and opinions of 4Pillars Environmental Consulting Pty Ltd or any Client, Supplier or other party related to 4Pillars or the speakers. 

(c) Gunnar Haid and James Hammond