Ben Settle On Personality-Driven Emails

In this episode, we chat with the one and only Ben Settle. Ben is a well-known email marketer who has a unique approach to writing emails. We get into the specifics of his unique style, why it works so well, why most people royally screw up the entire purpose of emails, and how you can use it in your own business for better results and a heckuva lot more fun writing emails! Resources Mentioned bensettle.com Transcript Jeremy Reeves: Hey, what is going on everybody. Jeremy Reeves here with another episode of The Sales Funnel Mastery Podcast. Today, I have on the line, Ben Settle. Probably a lot of you listening know about Ben. Basically, he is an email marketing bad ass -- if you bring up the subject email marketing, you have probably heard his name somewhere in there. He basically runs -- he does not do copy work anymore, anything like that. He kind of just focuses on you know, showing business owners how to write better sales copy with email and we will talk about it a little bit later where he has a news letter called email players which is pretty awesome and we will get into a little bit about that later. Ben, how are you buddy? Ben Settle: I am doing good, Jeremy. Thanks for having me on your show here. It is good to be here. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, yeah. I appreciate you coming on. So before we get into like you know, the actual tips and all that kind of stuff. Tell everybody a little bit about yourself you know, go into your story a little bit so people know you know, who you are or what you have done and why people talked about you in the industry. Ben Settle: Okay. I felt everybody says good things about me (inaudible 1:25.3) I hope not or else I am doing something wrong. I am basically -- whenever people ask me what I do -- and being in this industry you know the frustration to that problem. You go to a party and it is not business people, certainly not internet people. What do you do, right. What are you saying.. I used to have these different answers. I would like to gauge people’s response. Like I (inaudible 1:47.6) expand emails. I write (inaudible 1:51.0) emails, but now I will say, I am like (inaudible 1:53.4) who gets paid. And then they go, what do you mean by that. I said, well, I wake every day. I write an email, it takes me 10 to 15 or maybe 20 minutes tops and then I am done. I go off and have fun and play all day. That is the essence of what I do and the kind of lifestyle (inaudible 2:09.6) you know, there is people right now out there glorifying long hours and hard work and few hours of sleep and I am like the (inaudible 2:19.9) whatever it is or a writer who does not you know understand grammar, but that is like, I am the opposite. I have tried to build a lifestyle where -- I do other stuff, but I only have to do that and so that is pretty much what I do. Jeremy Reeves: Nice, nice. Why did you make that decision you know, because I am on the same way and everybody listening to this probably is too because that is what I talked about all the time is you know, time freedom and kind of not going after you know, the typical like you work until your eyes bleed just because you know, if you are trying to build a company sell for you know 7, 8, or 9 figures then maybe do that for a couple of years and then sell it and then you know do whatever or like Gary Vaynerchuck says, you know, he cannot live any other way you know, that is just part of your DNA and that is fine, but I mean, I definitely at more along the lines of yours you know what I mean. Work for a couple of hours. Work you know, for a little bit and then enjoy your life you know. So why did you -- why did you end up you know, wanting to go down that path you know, versus like the work until your eyes (inaudible 3:28.4). Ben Settle: Yeah (inaudible 3:28.4) and I was just speaking at an event a couple (inaudible 3:32.2) weekend and I remember telling people I am like the anti Gary V. not that I am against him (inaudible 3:39.8) I respect the guy. Do not get me wrong, but I am anti that in the sense of I do the opposite, like I could not -- I am not a -- like he said, he is apparently -- I have never heard the guy talk before. It is kind of funny because everybody (inaudible 3:50.9). Apparently, I was on this interview called mixology I think with Andrew Warner. Really cool show. He was telling me that in an interview Gary V (inaudible 4:01.5) he is like a mutant. He only needs like an hour of sleep. I do not know man. To me, like that is not what I want. So this is probably back like 2004, I was you know, somewhat new copywriter. I have been doing it for about a year or two or whatever. And I remember being on this guy’s list, Matty Furey. Now, to me, Matt Furey is the email king. I give him all the -- I mean, the stuff he teaches is the foundation of how I got in to all of this. Now I hear often a lot of ways not but the foundational stuff. Yeah, I owe that guy everything as far as I am concern. I will be pumping gas at the Chevron right now (inaudible 4:35.6) for him. He was selling to the fitness niche right. You know, body weight, exercise books master stuff. He would write an email everyday and he will be done. Sometimes he brag (inaudible 4:45.1) you know. I do not even check his email respond. Just pushing (inaudible 4:48.0) I want to go off. I am in China. I am going to go write often and get massages whole day out. And I thought, man, that is what I want. I (inaudible 4:54.8) busting my ass like you know, client work. I am like, I want that. I want to go just send an email out and be gone for the day, so I can have the option to do other things if I want and I do. I write novels like monster novels and I (inaudible 5:07.4) joint ventures that I am involved in like in a golf market, but that stuff is optional, okay. (inaudible 5:12.9) to do this one thing and it is a very freeing way to live. I can still work hard if I want you know, I do. I do work hard. I get bored very easily, but it is nice to not have to, that is my whole point. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah and I think that is a big point you know. It is the freedom to do you know, if you wake up one day and then you are like shit, I just do not feel like working. I mean, you do not have to, you know, versus if you are tied down by a thousand things, it does not matter how you feel when you wake up. You have to work and it is just your grinding through it. You hate your day and that kind of thing. I totally get that. I love that. Ben Settle: To clarify a job at that point. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, it really is, yeah. And I think a lot of people are you know, struggling with that. I think that is how most people set up their businesses. Ben Settle: You know, there is something -- I am also going to play Devil’s Advocate against myself because at the same time and I told (inaudible 6:05.8) you probably heard me talked about this in Kenny Roger’s thing. At the same time, those guys (inaudible 6:12.2) building actual real businesses and companies that they can sell off or just leave to a team to run, I wish I was more like that. I mean they are really the winners. They are the ones are going to win this race. I am just sitting there. I am just coasting along right now. If I get sick or hurt or die, some kind of (inaudible 6:27.1) because I do not have that (inaudible 6:29.5). So there is freedom there, but it is like the freedom of a drifter and like that (inaudible 6:34.4) David Banner wondering the earth. Well if he breaks his legs, he is kind of screwed you know. At the same time, I mean there is something (inaudible 6:42.0) to the other side and I should be thinking more like that. I just have not thinking inspired yet. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, yeah. You know, like anything else, there is pros and cons. There is no black and white. There is no perfect way to do things. It is just whatever works for you and your lifestyle you know, what you want to do you know. So you know, for anybody who has not heard of you, I feel like a lot of the audience listening to this probably has at least a familiarity with you and the style of writing that you do, but tell everybody about like, because your writing is very different than most people you know what I mean. So I guess walk us through like the -- I guess like the overall framework that you used for writing and I do not know if you can write copy. I know some people can just spout off copy off the top of their heads, but like just to kind to give an example of what it sounds like just so people can see, kind of hear how it is different you know, than like a typical email. Ben Settle: Well, here is -- they have been hearing me do it since we got on the phone or on the Skype here because I write just like I talk and this is the fact. If I have a unique way of writing it is only because I have a unique -- everybody has a unique personality. I simply expressed mine through my writing. How I write is exactly how I talk. In fact, you were talking to Jonathan Rivera you said recently and he is my -- I am going to be doing a new podcast by (inaudible 8:05.8) well I can do new (inaudible 8:07.6). Jeremy Reeves: That will be interesting. Ben Settle: I had a podcast for 2-1/2 years with him and he was the producer and I am going to be you know, we ended that in actually just a couple of weeks ago completely. Now we are going to do a new one next year, different one. But anyway, he told me that, he called me on the air once and he went to some mastermind right where there is a bunch of people there that I guess knew me in person. We have hang out (inaudible 8:31.4) and then like you know, Ben sounds exactly like, on his podcast as he does it in email as he does in real life is the exact same voice completely congruent. You know you are talking to -- you can tell it is a Ben email without even seeing the frontline if you know him or heard him talk. So all I am doing is writing like I talk which is a very simple principle that I learned from Matt Furey actually. I give him all the credits for it. I used to censor myself. I do not anymore. I am raw, uncircumcised opinion and that is the way I do things. Jeremy Reeves: Nice. So how do you -- in terms of like you know, because I get a question a lot of you know, how much value do you put it in and like what do you sell. How do you leave the sale like all you know, all the kind of typical marketing questions. What is your -- do you have like a -- I guess like a framework for your emails, like do you follow a certain structure for them or do you kind of just like blurted out and you know, or do you follow like kind of a certain structure for them? Ben Settle: Well when I was figuring all this out, I very consciously started figuring out different structures. So for example, I am going to tell a story and 1 email or I am going to do a Q&A; or I just (inaudible 9:41.3) with somebody ask me and I just answer. That is another structure or checklist of some kind or just a rant like a controversial rant and a whole bunch more. But I had to consciously work all this out and systematized it and you know, that is kind of what I teach these days, but nowadays, it is (inaudible 10:00.1) to me, I do not think any of that stuff. It is just in my subconscious. I just sit down and I have an idea, I start writing and I cannot explain it beyond that (inaudible 10:07.5) it is kind of like (inaudible 10:08.9) right. When you are trying to learn something, you are consciously unconfident. You know, you do not know and then you go from conscious confidence where you can do the thing while you are thinking about it and then you get to the point you are unconsciously confident which is like driving a car, you did not think about it anymore. And that is where I am (inaudible 10:25.2) that now, but I did have to work that stuff out originally and just keep doing it over, over, and over for the last you know, 8 or 9 years every day, sometimes 2 to 3 times a day to the point where it is so (inaudible 10:37.1) it is like hard for me not to write an email every day or voice emails. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah and actually, you know, speaking of daily emails. I know you are (inaudible 10:45.9) daily emails and you know, everybody has a different opinion on that of course. So you know, walk us through like you know, why you do daily emails? Have you tested not doing daily emails you know, have you tested autoresponders you know, what are some of the things that you have kind of try and saw that it work best around like frequency. Ben Settle: Well, when I first get started many months ago, I did like what the late great Gary Halbert used to teach people to do and I mean this with all due respect to him, but he was (inaudible 11:17.1). I mean he is right about a lot of stuff, but this where he was wrong. He was big on like send an email when you have something to say and then or only saw once in a while because then you know, people take it more seriously you know, all that what make sense on the (inaudible 11:32.9) especially back in like the 90s and all -- they kind of make sense. I still think it you know, when the work is well is how I do it now, but whatever, it does not matter. So I used to do that and so well, I would go months and months and months without selling anything. I would just be giving free content and free articles and then one day like exactly 10 years ago actually because I remember 2006, my friend John Anghelache who is a very good copywriter, excellent copywriter, I respect the guy tremendously, he put together a product for freelanced copywriters like how to get clients and my list was you know, very into that sort of thing I said good, I have got something to sell them right, it is a high ticket, high quality thing I believed in. So I send some -- (inaudible 12:14.1) asking for the sale and got a bunch of angry mob of angry people. How dare I sell anything. You are pimping your (inaudible 12:21.2) I never sold anything before though. And that is when I realized trying to appease these loser freebie seekers is the worst thing you can do if you want to have a solid email list or you are not getting a bunch of spam complaints and just trolls and all that. And so I started you know, thinking about that with why I am trying to appease this people. I have something to sell, I should do it and then of course I ran into Matt Furey’s teachings. He is pure daily email from many reasons like for example, people procrastinate you know, and you can assume it even seeing your last 10 emails just because of spam filters and they are busy. I get people telling me Jeremy that they made a decision to buy from me 6 weeks earlier than when they actually did. They just did not have the money. They just (inaudible 13:03.5) for reminding them every day. And here is another thought. If you are trying to position yourself as an expert, personally, I would like to position myself as a leader not just an expert because people listen to experts but they follow leaders, but let us just say -- Jeremy Reeves: It is a good distinction. I like that. Ben Settle: Yeah, I mean, you are trying to position yourself as some kind of authority, let us just put it that way and (inaudible 13:24.1) something to say once a week or twice a week you know, and then this other guy comes along and he has something to say every day. Who is -- perceptually, who is the leader? I mean if you do not have something to say everyday on what you are doing, people may not consciously think about it, but unconsciously, they think about this person is really the expert they say they are. And so, it is that and it is just this consistency, is like talk radio right, like every day you show up. They do not have read every email, but I am there every day and I am going to get them eventually if they are susceptible to my (inaudible 13:55.8) and the people I do not want will leave peacefully because they are tired of getting (inaudible 14:00.0) emails, so it is fine. It works out in so many -- it is a good way to keep your list strong and keep people kind of addicted to you like literally get a dopamine drip when they see your name in it, (inaudible 14:10.7) what is he going to say today. And you know, there are so many reasons to do daily and no I cannot think of any reason not to other than pure laziness or like you know, people just (inaudible 14:20.2) why I have to do the work. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, yeah. That is a good point, and honestly, I think that is what it is most of the time you know. Ben Settle: (inaudible 14:28.4) they do not want to have to do it and I give it (inaudible 14:31.9) I understand it completely. I might even making fun of them because they think I know I should do that I am not doing and I am not doing it because I am being lazy and my rationalization (inaudible 14:43.0) spinning some other reason out, but the fact -- at the same time I will say this too. (inaudible 14:49.1) of internet marketing as we know it, (inaudible 14:52.3) but I once interviewed him, this is back in 2008 or something. He says, he only sends 3 a week and he tested it. Apparently, somehow got more sales doing that, whatever. I have never seen that be the case with anybody else but him, but (inaudible 15:08.3) about or anything. He is not a lazy guy so and he likes writing email, so for him, you know, I guess you have to do your own thing. I think that through writing emails that people want to read. Why wouldn’t you want to be there every day. They are looking forward to it. Jeremy Reeves: One of things I want to touch on and feel free to rant about this as much as you want. Ben Settle: I will Jeremy. (inaudible 15:32.1) free to rant. I love that kind of stuff. Jeremy Reeves: So what are your thoughts on controversy? Ben Settle: I love controversy. I tell you what. It is one of the things I teach people to do. First of all, people love controversy. I mean, it is (inaudible 15:49.2) right. People just arguing about the stupid and shit you know, (inaudible 15:54.0) 300 comments long and nobody has made a point. Nobody has change anyone’s mind, but they just like ranting. (inaudible 16:01.2) talk radio it is a lot of ranting, right. People like to hear ranting about things they are passion about. They like to hear ranting controversial stuff about (inaudible 16:09.2) they disagree about them. Let me give you an example. Back in the late 1980s, Marvel Comics decided to turn the green rampaging Hulk into a smart gray Hulk, who is smaller, not as strong, he is still strong, but not as strong as rampaging green Hulk because he is kind of like sinister-minded, kind of an antihero kind of you know, just a vicious guy basically. And all of the green Hulk people were pissed. They are sending letters (inaudible 16:37.0) writers and editors and we are never reading the Hulk again and then they noticed every month that went by, the same people were still there. They did not leave. They are still there just to see how much mad they can get and sales keep going up more. So controversy, it is a funny thing. Half of your list should disagree you know, half will probably agree with you and that is actually a very good balance and the (inaudible 16:59.8) one, you can pull to your side. So I am all for controversy. It also shows that you have some balls. I mean, most people are afraid to be controversial and people like to follow brave people. They do not want to follow some timid little rabbit like you know, (inaudible 17:16.7) me as I was. I was as timid little rabbit afraid to say too. I have tried to get to controversial. Now, it is like, I just want to see the expression on their faces change when I say something that pisses them off you know what I mean (inaudible 17:30.0). Jeremy Reeves: That gives you your little dopamine rush every day when you get hate mail. Ben Settle: It is a rush of dopamine. I love it. I eat it up. I love and then I use it in the next day’s email to make their point stupid and (inaudible 17:44.0) my part. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah. And the funny thing is, I always say like you know, if you picture yourself kind of like in the middle and you are like you know, like a magnet and the more that you pissed off people and push away and polarized people, the amount that whatever like the amount of whatever polarization you have to those people is the exact like in inverse relationship with people attracted to you, you know what I mean. Ben Settle: Absolutely. I totally agree with that. In fact, that is a major foundation of personal branding like how it is done, at least done. Most of them do not understand personal branding but done properly that is exactly it. You can almost tell your success by how much people hate you. And there is something else that (inaudible 18:29.0) deeper thing at work here too. Someone who is not afraid to just give their opinion up. It has to be done righteously. It cannot be done as a tactic or like I am going to be controversial is a tactic. It is going to be because you really see something that you know is wrong in your mind, in your heart like you are going to talk about it. It makes people realized that you are not me. You do not need them, if you did, you would be dancing on (inaudible 18:52.5) right, and you are almost trying to repulse some away and there is a lot of -- it is under the consciousness. It is not some people think about, but by being controversial that is why people do not go away because they -- there is something about you that they find attractive as a business owner, as a leader, and whatever, and even if they disagree or do they respect you and it is far more important as the late great (inaudible 19:15.5) I would say. It is far more important to be respected than liked and the more effective you are the more respected you are. So just by getting good at what you do, and proving your point and not giving in like the late -- for example, the late Dr. Atkins, right. I mean, he for years, was getting abuse by the media and people mocking him around. He stood with it. Now he is a world recognized brand you know. There is something to be set for that. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah. And I think a good example of not being controversial just to be controversial is like, if you are you know, so like we both agree with the -- we both kind of stand for like the you know, building a business for freedom you know versus the whole work until your eyes bleed thing. So you can be controversial about that. You can say like you know, the other side is I do not agree with that, blah.. blah.. blah.. and that is kind of good way to do, that gives -- you are going to attract people that think the same thing. And then, but if you want to do the stupid way is kind of like if you are like oh I hate all puppies you know, it is like -- like there is no -- there is no meaning behind it. You are just being an idiot you know what I mean and whether you hate puppies or not I mean I do not know how you can hate puppies, but you know what I mean like it is not actually serving a purpose to say that you know what I mean, I think that is a good -- Ben Settle: I will give you a recent example and so I think -- I think this is like, this will give people an email example too so it is kind of like teaching them email stuff at the same time. I am not totally against (inaudible 20:43.2) so for last year and a half, I have been studying this kind of kung fu called Wing Chun. Wing Chun, sometimes people think I am saying Weng Chan. Jeremy Reeves: I actually thought you did. Ben Settle: Yeah, well because of my stupid Midwest accent thing, gets me in all kinds of trouble, but I got to shake that, someday, but anyway, I was talking to my (inaudible 21:05.8) just last week and he was telling me about this -- I do not know Chinese phrases (inaudible 21:10.4) it is called flowery hands. These are like kung fu like and not just kung fu but any kind of martial arts were just all show and it is flashy but it is not really applicable in real life (inaudible 21:21.0) in Hollywood and movies. Most of them is just bullshit, it would never work. It is flowery hands. It is very fluffy. It is made to look cool, but the reality is you are not in balance with anything. You can easily get (inaudible 21:30.7). So I said, we have some of that and this was an email I sent (inaudible 21:34.4) and then we have some flowery hands in the email world too and I went over some things that I think (inaudible 21:40.9) that people do like will take the Gary V and I am trying to pick (inaudible 21:46.2) I just do not agree what a lot of people of do. He has this thing I think it is called jab, jab, jab, right hook, like that. Like give something free, give something free and then make an offer. I am completely against that. I think that is very flowery hands. The style looks nice, but the reality is that it is very selfish to not sell on every email and (inaudible 22:08.4) opinion because if you have something that is going to benefit someone’s life, what good (inaudible 22:14.2) at least left a note (inaudible 22:15.5) everyday. It is kind of like -- if you have a painful urinary tract infection, where it feels like you are pissing a razorblades and all that. You need to go to the store or pharmacy to get your prescription and they have -- the pharmacy (inaudible 22:28.4) and they say look, this is a good will day today, we are not going to sell you anything (inaudible 22:32.2). Like that is the mindset, the flowery hands mindset or people -- for example, there are people who give their list the option on how often they should hear from them. It sounds very nice. Very nice guy. Very (inaudible 22:47.0), it is still very selfish and at the same time, it is going to kill your sales (inaudible 22:50.9). And it is very flowery and I am not saying it would not work and some people can definitely pull it off and it is fine. There is nothing wrong with it, but to me, it is very flowery. It is just for show as to prove that I am not this big salesman. I am a salesman. I am trying to sell you something, but I am going to do it in a way where you like it, you know. I am like the passive abusive guy you know what I mean. I am going to abuse you, but you are going to like it. And you want more the next day. So anyway, I did an email about that. I did it once. There are some other things too and that was controversial email. I was not insulting. I was not trying to insult anyone’s specific (inaudible 23:29.2). I was simply giving people a different option for thinking differently basically because most people are thinking in this (inaudible 23:36.2) world (inaudible 23:37.7). They do not have to listen to me. They do not have to agree with me, but they are going to see another point of view and that could be controversial. Jeremy Reeves: Okay, yeah, yeah. I mean, honestly, if you look like a really good example of all this right now whether you love (inaudible 23:50.8) is trump, right. I mean, oh my God, I mean the marketing (inaudible 23:55.9) from that guy is just, Jesus -- Ben Settle: I hear you. I mean, earlier this year where I finally read his book, (inaudible 24:03.4) and I am like his whole play from what he is doing is in that book. There is no mystery to what he is doing. People like to (inaudible 24:09.4) at the reality is just very basic. Principle based versus tactic based and you are right and you know, he is controversial and he does it on purpose, but he is also doing it because he sees a problem that needs to be solved. Now whether you agree to him or not it does not matter. I do not give this guy a malicious (inaudible 24:26.9). I do not think they are being malicious not certainly on purpose, Hillary maybe, but like (inaudible 24:32.7) I do not look at him as trying -- I do not agree to anything he says, but I do not think he is malicious (inaudible 24:38.0) I think he believes them and it is controversial and (inaudible 24:41.4) and so as Trump is the same way. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, definitely. So let us take this you know, because there is like the whole daily email thing right, and I think we cover that pretty well, but how about like when you are doing -- let us just say that you are doing a promotion you know what I mean. So it is like, you are sitting down. You are planning out some actual strategy because you are not going to write -- you are not going to -- you maybe write the same way in terms of like tone and things like that, but in terms of like the actual strategy behind it, that is going to change obviously because you know, you cannot just send out you know, the exact same daily emails when you are doing like a 4 day promotion or something like that. So how do you switch up the strategy? Do you keep the same tone, I am sure you do, but you know, is there a certain strategy that like a certain way that you like to structure those types of emails or like how does the overall email strategy change based on like the end goal that you are trying to reach. Ben Settle: It does change at all for me. The same email -- for example, if I had a 100 emails in an autoresponder space the day apart, I write them randomly in the exact same as if I am writing email broadcast and it has never hurt me. It is always done very well. What I do, okay, -- this might be the better answer to your question. I do not look at email tactically like most people do. Like -- okay, so I have Facebook group. This one guy was in there saying, well, how about this 4 emails I want to send off. This one tells, agitates the problem and this one you know, whatever, it is like problem education and I said, dude you are dead in the water right now because you approaching this tactically and you should be calling from a principle based thing. This is (inaudible 26:20.7) the world’s most (inaudible 26:23.3) negotiator. The reality is that you should be looking at what your market, what the problems are in your market and writing about that, not thinking (inaudible 26:30.3) agitate. What is insecurity they have that you can write about it you know. It is really (inaudible 26:36.6) like come from the market first not (inaudible 26:39.2). And so, that is how I approach for example for a promotion. I say, look, I think I have a real-life example, a recent one actually of something like it. So I say, okay, so a couple of years ago, I (inaudible 26:39.2) most people do. So this is back when he had this product that shows you how to do the survey funnels. He does not have it anymore. Now it is like a mastermind, but -- I bring this example up because I beat all his affiliates handily including some pretty big names like I just beat them all and I did not even try (inaudible 27:10.8) burned up somewhat. I was (inaudible 27:10.8) vacation. All I did was I said, okay, I have affiliate marketers on my list. I have network marketers on my list. I have freelance copywriters on my list you know, I looked at all the people who are on my list and I did an email about each one. So how could a network marketer (inaudible 27:27.3) this and I write email about that. How can affiliate marketer use this information, wrote an email about that (inaudible 27:32.9) same style and tone and all that, but I was targeting different segments of my market. I did this recently with Danny (inaudible 27:40.5) you know Danny (inaudible 27:41.3). I was selling his course builder (inaudible 27:43.6). He simply really -- this is way better than -- like the average affiliate. I do not know if I did the best or not, but you know, way better. I mean, he was very happy about it. I did the same thing. Okay, so, why would a freelance copywriter need to learn how to build a course. Why would an affiliate marketer need how to build the course. Why would a network marketer (inaudible 28:01.6) it is all about your list and the people on and what they want, tailored around that. That is the principle then you can throw the tactics after the next emails if you want, but starts with that. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, you know what, I am actually -- I am actually working the whole day today and yesterday and tomorrow and probably the weekend actually which I rarely work weekends, but I am just motivated this weekend. But I am coming out with the new course and that is, well like, what the whole thing is wrapped around because I mean, you know, as a copywriter, you know, you are trained to, you are trained to -- and honestly this is really what separates really good copywriters from really bad copywriters is how much you focus on the actual market, the problems they are having you know what I mean, because you can write -- it kind of comes back to the flower hands. You can make the copy sound great but if you are talking about the wrong problems or you are talking to the wrong audience of if it is generalized, it is not going to sell you know what I mean. Ben Settle: (inaudible 29:01.6) all the time. People’s flashy headlines, all the shit. They think it is so cool and it is like, you missed the market -- You know, let us talk about this a little bit more. This is very interesting topic. (inaudible 29:12.0) I do not have the product made yet, so write the ad first, and then create and like create the product in the ad. I did this in the -- work at home (inaudible 29:21.1) we did not have a product, right and we look at the market and I wrote the ad saying if I have unlimited powers what would I teach these people and put it in the ad and then it is like, okay, now we just need to make a product that fulfills all these claims and if we cannot, we just take those claims out. That is the ideal way to do it. Only copywriters are going to get that. Operators are not going to understand that. Jeremy Reeves: I am actually working on a client project right now and I am just about to finish up all the copy and I literally have not seen her product yet. It is actually not even -- it is not even created yet, yeah. And what I told her was, because she was starting to make it and I said, wait until the copy is actually done because then like I can just write it and until it sounds freaking awesome, and then -- Ben Settle: Absolutely. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, and then what you have to do is you have to then create the product so it matches the level of copy you know what I mean, versus if you create the product and the product sucks, will -- I mean the copy or the product is the weak link and the copy can only go up to that level versus if you write the most amazing copy in the world and sell the hell out of it then the product has to come out to that level you know. Ben Settle: Absolutely. It brings it up. It actually raises -- and you know what, when I first got into golf interest like in 2009, I did not know shit about golfing, seriously. I hope I am not slamming too much in your (inaudible 30:39.3) But I did not know anything about golf, like I was -- I never played a bit, not even miniature golf and but I studied the market so intensely and the product was not ready, but I was able to write 80% -- everything but the bullets basically, without even seeing the product or knew the market and they killed, I mean it absolutely killed it in sales. I mean there is no one even close and so yeah, I agree with you on that. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, definitely. And that is the same thing. I just have to go back and do the bullets you know. Having the product, that is really all you need is just the bullets you know. Ben Settle: Yeah, (inaudible 31:12.1) that is really how you need it exactly. Jeremy Reeves: Unless you are doing you know, one of the like (inaudible 31:16.9) old ads where it was just like a headline and then bullets and you know, go here to buy. Ben Settle: One of my favorite kind of ads to write. Jeremy Reeves: Then you kind of you know, you kind of need the product, but in every other case you know and I have not really -- I think that is the only time I have heard or even seen (inaudible 31:34.2) like that. I do not think I have ever seen anybody duplicate one of those you know. Ben Settle: I tried (inaudible 31:39.7) couple case like I have this ebook called Crackerjack Selling Secrets, (inaudible 31:45.8) like a main stream like it is a problem they know they have and they know they want solutions to it and you can (inaudible 31:51.7) it is like informational (inaudible 31:53.5) to teasing, it is perfect. You do not even have to do (inaudible 31:57.2) you know, just start running bullets, it is like to shoot bullets at them. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, bullets are good. I think the biggest thing people are wrong with them is they almost like give it away in the bullet whereas you know, they are fascinations. They are supposed to be you know, they are supposed to build curiosity you know and I think -- Ben Settle: Yeah. 90% is a good -- like 90% (inaudible 32:20.3) 10% but they need to execute it is like the best kind of bullet, because it is informational like you could be getting educated (inaudible 32:27.4) Jeremy Reeves: So one -- oh God, I just had it, and it went out. I love that when that happens during the interview. Alright, well, I guess we will skip that one. Oh you know what, you know what I was going to ask you, it just came back. So one of the things that I always talk about is that you know, when you are doing these type of emails and like a lot of your -- a lot of people think you know, email is dead and obviously that is just total bullshit. But you know, when it comes to doing email or even social media, it is kind of like the same thing whatever you like your main marketing you know, some people are really good at and by the way, anybody listening to this, if you hate writing emails, but you are really good at videos, you are really good on social media, you can use the same principles and just use it in a different media you know what I mean. Ben Settle: It is all the same. It is all freaking same. In fact, I have a guy just showing my email players newsletter. I met him while I was speaking a couple of weeks ago. His name is Tyson (inaudible 33:34.0) I hope I said his name right. He is big in the (inaudible 33:36.3) world and he is a video guy. He is great. He is freaking genius at video. He is like (inaudible 33:40.6) all can be applied to video. I have another subscriber (inaudible 33:46.2) he is a rapper and he was like, Ben, I never write emails but I take it in (inaudible 33:52.2) he is on youtube and it work. So yeah, what you are saying is absolutely true. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, yeah and so where I was going with that because I went off you know, total spider web there. One of my kind of theories is that you know, when you are doing this you are basically building a relationship and even if they are not because you said a while ago, you know, a lot of people -- they know they are going to buy, it is just kind of waiting for the right time whether it is money or whether they are too busy doing other stuff or whatever it is. Would you agree that writing daily emails or even just frequent emails or just having that relationship keeping constant touch, it really just sets -- it’s kind of sets the stage, it builds the trust so that whenever you come out with something, I think this is why you are such a good -- when you do affiliate programs it is because you built that trust you know with them. You built that relationship with them and it is like, it almost does not even matter what you are selling, it is just like oh well, Ben says this is good, therefore, I need it you know. Do you agree with that? Ben Settle: Yes and in fact, I am thinking -- all of the stuff. The relationship is far more important to go back and trying to build credibility and all the stuff because that is the credibility in fact that they like and trust you. That is why I said there is a different -- copywriting is different than email in that sense. Like copywriting has to be very specific because -- you know, it is a static thing (inaudible 35:13.5) everyday you do not have to pitch benefits and try to prove how great you are everyday. You just have (inaudible 35:18.1) with dialogue just like you would -- It is funny that you brought up like people just buy it. So I launched this product called Copy Slacker last February and you know, I ordered 50 sets of it because I do not think (inaudible 35:33.7) I thought I get 50 sales or maybe 40 sales. I have like a 177 and I do not know -- I doubt anybody, any of them really read the sales letter. (inaudible 35:48.2) told me, I just bought you know. So you are right about that and by being there, that is another reason to do daily emails you know everyday like a friend in their inbox. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, definitely. I have heard a lot of product launch you will see it is like you know, hey it is 12 o’clock, the cart is open and you have 10 sales at 12 o’clock exactly you know what I mean. Ben Settle: That is a function of a very good marketing. Well it is the very end of February, first couple of days in March I was -- I spoke at AWAI’s web copywriting intensive (inaudible 36:20.3) and Clayton Makepeace was there. It was honored to actually get to meet him and actually be on the panel. I was like, wow it was like my fan boy dream come true. I remember him teaching. He was -- what we are trying to do, what he was doing in his business is, he wants to (inaudible 36:37.1) so that the sales letters just not even necessary like the selling is already been done before I get there. And this is what emails (inaudible 36:44.4) you do (inaudible 36:45.4) it lets you sell before it is even like you said, the cart opens and it is got to be close in 20 minutes already because it is already sold out. Jeremy Reeves: Yep, yep. Who is that, I think it is Joe Polish that says, basically the you know, the product and marketing should make -- oh God, what am I trying to say. I am blanking here again, wow, I must be tired. Jesus. The purpose of marketing is to make selling superfluous you know what I mean. Ben Settle: That is all (inaudible 37:21.1) actually. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah. I mean the purpose of marketing is basically so that when you are going to sell something they are already sold on it regardless of what it is. Obviously, as long as in touch with what they actually need you know what I mean. It is not like you can go and sell them like a garbage can and then they are going to buy it you know maybe you can, you should do a test. That will be funny. You should put your face on a garbage can. Let us see if it is (inaudible 37:43.2). Ben Settle: You know Jeremy I have a rather unusual example of this, okay. I wrote an email about this many years ago that did pretty well. So I live in Oregon, where it rains a lot. I live in Oregon (inaudible 37:56.8) specifically. (inaudible 37:58.4) it rains like 80 inches of rain a year right. It is raining all the time. When I first got my dog, she got to go out. I take her out in the rain because I have to take her out and she was just pacing around, sniffing around while I am getting soak and then she get into the position like she is going to take a crap right like a rabbit looking position and then she would like not crap and then she starts sniffing around me and she did that 2 or 3 times. I am out there for 20 minutes during this (inaudible 38:24.2) And I was like what the hell -- I called it phantom poop like she is acting like she would poop and she did not. Well then it dawned on me -- it did not take a long to dawned on me that -- if I just wait to take her out when she really has to go when like it is like a periscope coming out of her ass (inaudible 38:41.5) it is coming out, she will go right away and I thought isn’t that how it is with selling, like most products (inaudible 38:49.1) are phantom pooping basically. They acting like they are going to buy. They did not look. They did not sniff around a little bit maybe they can see some other options but if you wait to actually pitch them when they are ready to buy it is a much easier to sell. So I think that goes in line with what Joe Polish is saying. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, definitely and by the way, please tell me that you have written about that in email. Ben Settle: I did. I wrote about that. In fact, this is an example all the time when I get the (inaudible 38:49.1) because it makes the point. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, it really does. It does. Well hey man, I have had a blast you know, I have learned a bunch. I am sure a lot of -- I am sure we have broken a lot of paradigms on this especially if you know anybody listening to this has not kind of been indoctrinated by the settle way. I hope you have kind of shifted some beliefs a little bit you know, I know your stuff gets really good results for a lot of different people in a lot of different industries you know. I always like to say that because people are like, oh my business is different and it is like, no, no. It is really not. Are you selling to (inaudible 39:51.5) yes. Okay, well no it is not. Ben Settle: Yeah. It is not different and you know what that is my whole goal on these things, is you give people options for thinking differently. They do not have to take my option but at least they know that it exist and if they want more they can you know, come to me for more of it. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, yeah and speaking of that you know, before we hop off, tell everybody you know, where they can find you you know, what should they do if they resonate with your -- you know, your style? Ben Settle: Okay, well, they should go to bensettle.com and if you give me your precious email address. I am not going to promise I am not going to abuse it or anything, but I am going to mail you okay, but if you give me your address, I will send you the first issue of my 97$ a month “Email Players” newsletter which is a prestigious newsletter, but I will send you the PDF of the first issue obviously, like my autoresponder and there are 24 ways in there that you can start making more sales with email (inaudible 40:44.1) right away. People have told me they made tens of thousands of dollars just with that free issue, it is yours. If you do not give me your email address you can still click through the blog and there is like almost 2,000 pages of articles on there well over a dozen audio hours of audio and video training, all free. it is bensettle.com. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah and that will be in the show notes for everyone listening. So just you know, go in your phone and click in the show notes and you go right there. Ben it was a pleasure having you on. As always it was entertaining and educational. Thanks for coming on. Ben Settle: Thank you Jeremy. Good talking to you again too. Jeremy Reeves: Yep, you too. See you.