Bassist, touring musician, producer, and aspiring fashion designer Ben Kelly meets the Rundmans for the first time. This conversation goes from zero to sixty immediately, and Ben wastes no time digging into some very surprising and provocative topics! We discuss how being in a band is like pulling off a heist, the contraction of "entrepreneur" and "producer," Ben's faith that the system will work, and reflections on how the grass is always greener on the other side. And, we keep talking about boats. Fast-paced fun abounds. Get ready.