A special episode from the How To Academy Podcast. Human rights lawyer and award-winning author Philippe Sands QC meets the Dutch historian and viral superstar Rutger Bregman to hear a new argument: that it is realistic, as well as revolutionary, to assume that people are good.

How To Academy is London’s home of big thinking. In livestream and through live events, they host the world’s biggest thinkers, artists, entrepreneurs and leaders – from Ai Weiwei to Malcolm Gladwell, Bill Gates to Patti Smith, Isabel Allende to Denis Mukwege. Each week, their podcast offers an in-depth interview with their most exciting recent guests. The show's available on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts - just search for How to Academy.