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Brian Carroll | Connecting to What The Customer Cares About
Michael Webb: You're listening to the Sales Process Excellence Podcast with Michael Webb. B2B sales and marketing works to find the highest quality prospects, reach decision makers, and sell value. Operational excellence uses data and systems thinking to make changes that cause improvement and eliminate waste. My name is Michael Webb and this is the Sales Process Excellence Podcast. In the next 30 to 40 minutes, we're going to destroy the myth that these two groups conflict, and show you how to bring both strategies together to create more wealth for your company and your customers.
Michael Webb: Hello, everyone. This is Michael Webb and I'm excited today to have on the phone a friend of mine from many years ago, Brian Carroll. Brian, welcome here.
Brian Carroll: Thanks for having me.
Michael Webb: It would be great if you could tell the audience a little bit about your background and then how we got connected, oh, I guess it was probably 15 years ago, or 14 years ago.
Brian Carroll: Yeah, yeah. For everyone, my background, I've focused primarily on the intersection of marketing and sales. I wrote a book, Lead Generation for the Complex Sale. I've worked with the who's who of technology, really forward thinkers. I had an opportunity to work with some of the largest, most well-known brands. SAP, Google, the marketing tech world, Eloqua, Marketo.
Brian Carroll: So as you think about all the changes we're experiencing today, very early on, we were implementing technology to connect with customers and develop leads for sales teams, and so, Michael, you and I connected around your work with sales process and the notion of Six Sigma and continually optimizing. That's where I came from. We'll talk about a little bit, but I had this Jerry Maguire moment, 2014, working with my own team and how we connect with customers, so I shifted my work and focus around not just looking at how do we get more leads and higher quality leads and driving pipeline, but just really recognizing that we no longer have an issue around conversion in the same way we did. It's actually harder now to connect with customers. That's what I've been doing for the past three years is seeing empathy as a sales and marketing super power.
Michael Webb: As you went from your own firm, which was, Leads to Sales I think it was called, and it was acquired by MarketingExperiments group, right?
Brian Carroll: Yeah, so MECLABS owns MarketingSherpa and MarketingExperiments, and you know, I admired both of the brands so much. I was speaking at a conference and just the things we were focusing on, what I wanted to do is bring more science and more research, because in best practices you take something you learned and you apply it to another customer base and it doesn't work. Experience doesn't always determine you're going to be successful, and what I wanted to understand is why.
Brian Carroll: Most people focus on how do you get marketing working. And what I've always wondered is why isn't it working. That's why I really loved being able to sell my company to MECLABS because we were trying to understand what really works and why by understanding how customers make choices. While I was there, we saw the motivation, the customers, the most important thing. After I left MECLABS to do my own work, I've really focused on this notion of customer motivation, because neuroscience, a breakthrough happened in 2014 where it had been previous to that, but just finding... Antonio Damasio is a neuroscientist that found we aren't thinking machines that feel, we're feeling machines that think.
Brian Carroll: So, that's how all the focus I had previously done on value proposition, and messaging, and specific channels and cadences, what I realized I was missing is this deeper understanding of how emotions drive all of our decisions. That's the important thing that I'm working on today is how do we better connect to what people care about.
Michael Webb: So, that's why you're so interesting because you understand the scientific mindset, and then you're also into this, your new positioning is around empathy. How do other people feel? What are they thinking? What motivates them? Which is traditionally thought of as a soft fuzzy, you know, you can't measure that kind of thing. So let's start out with what is empathetic marketing? Is that what you're calling it?
Brian Carroll: Yeah, yeah.
Michael Webb: What is that, empathy-based.
Brian Carroll: So, why it matters. I always start with why. Why should you care about this? What I saw is today we have more ways of reaching our customers. Every few months we have a new channel we can reach our customers through. The other thing is we have more data about our customers, behavioral data. I just went through an experience with someone on their own website where I knew that they have my behavioral data, they have my chat data, they have information about who I am because Clearbit and other tools and discover.org tell them personal data, and so there's all this research around persuasion.
Brian Carroll: Cialdini's work around how do we use behavioral economics and tools to connect with people. We have all the stuff, and what's happening though is that it's still not working. The issue has shifted from focused on conversion that the gap we have is connection, connecting to what our customers care about. Ironically. So you have more ways and more data, but actually connecting what your customers care about has never been harder. So when I talk to marketers, that's the struggle. And what empathy based marketing is, is moving your focus from if I were the customer, how would this appeal to me? Most people think, well, I'm already empathetic. I already care about my customers. I'm already curious about them.
Brian Carroll: But the issue is, is that what science has shown is that we think we're being empathetic. We think we're thinking about the customer, but we're using our own bias, our own preferences. We're trying to get what we want, and we actually aren't connecting to what our customers care about. So what do they do? They read in-boxes to delete things, not to read them. They ignore messages. They are immune because what's happening is that they got to care about it. We got to connect with the care about. And then the shift is, is no longer about funnels. It's about becoming a Sherpa.
Brian Carroll: So, here's the way to sum up what's empathy-based marketing. It's being your customer to understand what they care about so that you can create messages that resonate and focus on what matters, either problems they have they don't want, results they want they don't yet have, not only that, but you're like a Sherpa helping a mountain climber climb the mountain. You know, they still got to climb, but we now are moving to this mode of you can't make someone do something, but what you can do is equip and enable them.
Brian Carroll: You can bring science to this process. It's just you have to appreciate, it's the emotion. Even in complex sales that's way bigger now because the stakes are higher. It's riskier to make bad decisions.
Michael Webb: So when you say, "Shifting from conversion to connection," by connection you mean something that is valuable to them in their activity goal, mission, someth...
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By Michael Webb
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Michael Webb: You're listening to the Sales Process Excellence Podcast with Michael Webb. B2B sales and marketing works to find the highest quality prospects, reach decision makers, and sell value. Operational excellence uses data and systems thinking to make changes that cause improvement and eliminate waste. My name is Michael Webb and this is the Sales Process Excellence Podcast. In the next 30 to 40 minutes, we're going to destroy the myth that these two groups conflict, and show you how to bring both strategies together to create more wealth for your company and your customers.
Michael Webb: Hello, everyone. This is Michael Webb and I'm excited today to have on the phone a friend of mine from many years ago, Brian Carroll. Brian, welcome here.
Brian Carroll: Thanks for having me.
Michael Webb: It would be great if you could tell the audience a little bit about your background and then how we got connected, oh, I guess it was probably 15 years ago, or 14 years ago.
Brian Carroll: Yeah, yeah. For everyone, my background, I've focused primarily on the intersection of marketing and sales. I wrote a book, Lead Generation for the Complex Sale. I've worked with the who's who of technology, really forward thinkers. I had an opportunity to work with some of the largest, most well-known brands. SAP, Google, the marketing tech world, Eloqua, Marketo.
Brian Carroll: So as you think about all the changes we're experiencing today, very early on, we were implementing technology to connect with customers and develop leads for sales teams, and so, Michael, you and I connected around your work with sales process and the notion of Six Sigma and continually optimizing. That's where I came from. We'll talk about a little bit, but I had this Jerry Maguire moment, 2014, working with my own team and how we connect with customers, so I shifted my work and focus around not just looking at how do we get more leads and higher quality leads and driving pipeline, but just really recognizing that we no longer have an issue around conversion in the same way we did. It's actually harder now to connect with customers. That's what I've been doing for the past three years is seeing empathy as a sales and marketing super power.
Michael Webb: As you went from your own firm, which was, Leads to Sales I think it was called, and it was acquired by MarketingExperiments group, right?
Brian Carroll: Yeah, so MECLABS owns MarketingSherpa and MarketingExperiments, and you know, I admired both of the brands so much. I was speaking at a conference and just the things we were focusing on, what I wanted to do is bring more science and more research, because in best practices you take something you learned and you apply it to another customer base and it doesn't work. Experience doesn't always determine you're going to be successful, and what I wanted to understand is why.
Brian Carroll: Most people focus on how do you get marketing working. And what I've always wondered is why isn't it working. That's why I really loved being able to sell my company to MECLABS because we were trying to understand what really works and why by understanding how customers make choices. While I was there, we saw the motivation, the customers, the most important thing. After I left MECLABS to do my own work, I've really focused on this notion of customer motivation, because neuroscience, a breakthrough happened in 2014 where it had been previous to that, but just finding... Antonio Damasio is a neuroscientist that found we aren't thinking machines that feel, we're feeling machines that think.
Brian Carroll: So, that's how all the focus I had previously done on value proposition, and messaging, and specific channels and cadences, what I realized I was missing is this deeper understanding of how emotions drive all of our decisions. That's the important thing that I'm working on today is how do we better connect to what people care about.
Michael Webb: So, that's why you're so interesting because you understand the scientific mindset, and then you're also into this, your new positioning is around empathy. How do other people feel? What are they thinking? What motivates them? Which is traditionally thought of as a soft fuzzy, you know, you can't measure that kind of thing. So let's start out with what is empathetic marketing? Is that what you're calling it?
Brian Carroll: Yeah, yeah.
Michael Webb: What is that, empathy-based.
Brian Carroll: So, why it matters. I always start with why. Why should you care about this? What I saw is today we have more ways of reaching our customers. Every few months we have a new channel we can reach our customers through. The other thing is we have more data about our customers, behavioral data. I just went through an experience with someone on their own website where I knew that they have my behavioral data, they have my chat data, they have information about who I am because Clearbit and other tools and discover.org tell them personal data, and so there's all this research around persuasion.
Brian Carroll: Cialdini's work around how do we use behavioral economics and tools to connect with people. We have all the stuff, and what's happening though is that it's still not working. The issue has shifted from focused on conversion that the gap we have is connection, connecting to what our customers care about. Ironically. So you have more ways and more data, but actually connecting what your customers care about has never been harder. So when I talk to marketers, that's the struggle. And what empathy based marketing is, is moving your focus from if I were the customer, how would this appeal to me? Most people think, well, I'm already empathetic. I already care about my customers. I'm already curious about them.
Brian Carroll: But the issue is, is that what science has shown is that we think we're being empathetic. We think we're thinking about the customer, but we're using our own bias, our own preferences. We're trying to get what we want, and we actually aren't connecting to what our customers care about. So what do they do? They read in-boxes to delete things, not to read them. They ignore messages. They are immune because what's happening is that they got to care about it. We got to connect with the care about. And then the shift is, is no longer about funnels. It's about becoming a Sherpa.
Brian Carroll: So, here's the way to sum up what's empathy-based marketing. It's being your customer to understand what they care about so that you can create messages that resonate and focus on what matters, either problems they have they don't want, results they want they don't yet have, not only that, but you're like a Sherpa helping a mountain climber climb the mountain. You know, they still got to climb, but we now are moving to this mode of you can't make someone do something, but what you can do is equip and enable them.
Brian Carroll: You can bring science to this process. It's just you have to appreciate, it's the emotion. Even in complex sales that's way bigger now because the stakes are higher. It's riskier to make bad decisions.
Michael Webb: So when you say, "Shifting from conversion to connection," by connection you mean something that is valuable to them in their activity goal, mission, someth...