In this episode, Dr. Lilles discusses the Fifth Mansions Chapter 1 of the “Interior Castle” which covers:






1. Graces of the fifth mansions. 2. Contemplation to be striven for. 3. Physical effects of the Prayer of union. 4. Amazement of the intellect. 5. The Prayer of union and of quiet contrasted. 6. Divine and earthly union. 7. Competent directors in these matters. 8. Proof of union. 9. Assurance left in the soul. 10. Divine union beyond our Power to obtain.




For the Discerning Hearts audio recording of the “Interior Castle” by St. Teresa of Avila  you can visit here

For other audio recordings of various spiritual classics you can visit the Discerning Hearts Spiritual Classics page
For other episodes in the series visit
The Discerning Hearts “The Interior Castle with Dr. Anthony Lilles”
Anthony Lilles, S.T.D. is an associate professor and the academic dean of Saint John’s Seminary in Camarillo as well as the academic advisor for Juan Diego House of Priestly Formation for the Archdiocese of Los Angeles. For over twenty years he served the Church in Northern Colorado where he joined and eventually served as dean of the founding faculty of Saint John Vianney Theological Seminary in Denver. Through the years, clergy, seminarians, religious and lay faithful have benefited from his lectures and retreat conferences on the Carmelite Doctors of the Church and the writings of St. Elisabeth of the Trinity.

 




BTP-IC12 – Fifth Mansions Chapter 1 – The Interior Castle by St. Teresa of Avila – Beginning to Pray with Dr. Anthony Lilles Podcast

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Letter 158 – The Letters of St. Elizabeth of the Trinity – Beginning to Pray with Dr. Anthony Lilles
Dr. Anthony Lilles and Kris McGregor discuss a letter from St. Elizabeth of the Trinity to a seminarian, Monsieur l’Abbé. Elizabeth, a Carmelite nun, corresponds with him to support his journey through the seminary. This particular letter, written on February 24, 1903, before Lent, reflects Elizabeth’s deep spirituality and her contemplative life dedicated to prayer for seminarians and priests.
Elizabeth speaks about being in communion with God and the importance of contemplative prayer. She draws on the imagery of being caught, carried away, and invaded by God’s love. This mystical prayer, according to Lilles, is characterized by God’s divine action in the soul rather than the individual’s efforts. She also discusses the balance between contemplation and action, using the biblical figures of Mary Magdalene and Martha to illustrate her point. Elizabeth believes that even in active roles, one can maintain a contemplative, prayerful state.
The conversation then touches on the significance of the face of Christ in contemplative prayer and how it reveals the love of the Father and the truth about humanity. Lilles explains that contemplative prayer involves seeing with the heart and perceiving divine truths through faith.
Her letter also addresses the challenges faced by the Church and individuals during times of political and social turmoil. She encourages focusing on the eternal mystery of the Trinity rather than being consumed by external events. By living in the will of the Father and remaining in His love, Elizabeth believes one can find peace and purpose regardless of external circumstances.


[February 24, 1903]
Dijon Carmel, February
Amo Christum
J. M. + J. T.
Monsieur l’Abbé,
Before entering into the great silence of Lent, I want to answer your kind letter. And my soul needs to tell you that it is wholly in communion with yours, letting itself be caught, carried away, invaded by Him whose charity envelops us and who wishes to consummate us into “one” with Him. I thought of you when I read these words of Père Vallée on contemplation: “The contemplative is a being who lives in the radiance of the Face of Christ, who enters into the mystery of God, not in the light that flows from human thought, but in that created by the word of the Incarnate Word.”3 Don’t you have this passion to listen to Him?3a Sometimes it is so strong, this need to be silent, that one would like to know how to do nothing but remain like Magdalene, that beautiful model for the contemplative soul, at the feet of the Master, eager to hear everything, to penetrate ever deeper into this mystery of Charity that He came to reveal to us. Don’t you find that in action, when we are in Martha’s role,4 the soul can still remain wholly adoring, buried like Magdalene in her contemplation, staying by this source like someone who is starving; and this is how I understand the Carmelite’s apostolate as well as the priest’s. Then both can radiate God, give Him to souls, if they constantly stay close to this divine source. It seems to me that we should draw so close to the Master, in such communion with His soul, to identify ourselves with all its movements, and then go out as He did, according to the will of His Father. Then it does not matter what happens to the soul, since it has faith in the One it loves who dwells within it. During this Lent I would like, as Saint Paul says, “to be buried in God with Christ,”5 to be lost in this Trinity who will one day be our vision, and in this divine light penetrate into the depth of the Mystery. Would you pray that I may be wholly surrendered and that my Beloved Bridegroom may carry me away wherever He wishes. A Dieu, Monsieur l’Abbé, let us remain in His love;6 is He not that infinity for which our souls so thirst?...

BTP-L3 – Letter 158 – The Letters of St. Elizabeth of the Trinity – Beginning to Pray with Dr. Anthony Lilles – Discerning Hearts Podcast


Awareness of the Presence of Christ – The Life of St. Teresa of Avila – Beginning to Pray with Dr. Anthony Lilles
Dr. Anthony Lilles and Kris McGregor discuss Chapter 27 of the work by St. Teresa of Avila. They explore St. Theresa’s profound spiritual experiences, particularly her visions and locutions, and how they relate to the stages of the spiritual life. In addition, they discuss St. Theresa’s humility in submitting her experiences to her confessor and the transformative effects these experiences have on the soul.
Dr. Lilles draws parallels between Theresa’s visions and experiences of other spiritual writers, comparing the deep personal encounter with Christ they represent, including the distinctions between various levels of spiritual awareness, such as the prayer of quiet and the prayer of union, and how they manifest in the soul’s relationship with God.
While these extraordinary experiences are not necessary for spiritual growth, they can profoundly impact the soul and its journey towards God.

For more episodes in this series: The Life of St. Teresa of Avila; with Dr. Anthony Lilles
For an audio version of the book:  “The Life of St. Teresa of Jesus” by St. Teresa of Avila 
For other audio recordings of various spiritual classics, you can visit the Discerning Hearts Spiritual Classics page.


Discerning Hearts reflection questions for this episode:

* Exploring Spiritual Experiences: How do St. Teresa of Avila’s visions and locutions deepen our understanding of spiritual encounters with God?
* Submission to Spiritual Authority: What lessons can we learn from St. Teresa’s humility in submitting her spiritual experiences to her confessor?
* Transformative Encounters: How do encounters with Christ, like those described by St. Teresa, impact the soul and its journey towards God?
* Levels of Spiritual Awareness: What distinctions can we draw between different levels of spiritual awareness, such as the prayer of quiet and the prayer of union, and how they manifest in the soul’s relationship with God?


An excerpt from Chapter 27, discussed in this episode:
“At the end of two years spent in prayer by myself and others for this end, namely, that our Lord would either lead me by another way, or show the truth of this,—for now the locutions of our Lord were extremely frequent,—this happened to me. I was in prayer one day,—it was the feast of the glorious St. Peter —when I saw Christ close by me, or, to speak more correctly, felt Him; for I saw nothing with the eyes of the body, nothing with the eyes of the soul. He seemed to me to be close beside me; and I saw, too, as I believe, that it was He who was speaking to me. As I was utterly ignorant that such a vision was possible, I was extremely afraid at first, and did nothing but weep; however, when He spoke to me but one word to reassure me, I recovered myself, and was, as usual, calm and comforted, without any fear whatever. Jesus Christ seemed to be by my side continually, and, as the vision was not imaginary, I saw no form; but I had a most distinct feeling that He was always on my right hand, a witness of all I did; and never at any time, if I was but slightly recollected, or not too much distracted,

BTP-LOT18 – Awareness of the Presence of Christ – The Life of St. Teresa of Avila – Beginning to Pray with Dr. Anthony Lilles – Discerning Hearts Podcast


Extraordinary Mystical Phenomenon – The Life of St. Teresa of Avila – Beginning to Pray with Dr. Anthony Lilles
Dr. Anthony Lilles and Kris McGregor discuss locutions and the experiences of St. Teresa of Avila. They explain that locutions, or extraordinary mystical phenomena, are more common than people realize but are unnecessary for salvation. Dr. Lilles points out that these experiences don’t necessarily reflect a person’s spiritual maturity and can be both helpful and potentially misleading. He provides examples of individuals who misinterpreted their experiences and warns against seeking such phenomena for the sake of bypassing the obedience of faith. They go into different types of locutions, emphasizing the importance of discernment and testing these experiences.
Highlighting the transformative power of genuine locutions, which bring clarity, freedom, and strength, helps us live a more aligned life with God’s will.

For more episodes in this series: The Life of St. Teresa of Avila; with Dr. Anthony Lilles
For an audio version of the book:  “The Life of St. Teresa of Jesus” by St. Teresa of Avila 
For other audio recordings of various spiritual classics, you can visit the Discerning Hearts Spiritual Classics page.


Discerning Hearts reflection questions for this episode:

* Understanding Locutions: How would you explain the concept of locutions and their significance in Catholic spirituality?
* Discernment and Spiritual Maturity: What insights does Dr. Anthony Lilles offer regarding the relationship between locutions and spiritual maturity? How does this challenge common misconceptions?
* Distinguishing Genuine Experiences: Based on the discussion, how can one discern between authentic locutions and misleading experiences? What criteria or signs did the speakers mention?
* Responsiveness to Divine Guidance: Reflect on the importance of being receptive to divine guidance in one’s spiritual journey. How can individuals cultivate openness to hearing God’s voice?
* Role of Spiritual Direction: How does this episode highlight the significance of spiritual direction in navigating mystical experiences? What role does accountability and guidance play in discernment?
* Integration with Scripture: Discuss the relationship between locutions and scriptural grounding. How can individuals align their experiences with biblical principles and teachings?
* Personal Reflections on Prayer: Consider your own prayer life. Have you ever experienced moments of perceived divine inspiration? How do these experiences shape your faith and actions?


An excerpt from Chapter 25, discussed in this episode:
“It will be as well, I think, to explain these locutions of God, and to describe what the soul feels when it receives them, in order that you, my father, may understand the matter; for ever since that time of which I am speaking, when our Lord granted me that grace, it has been an ordinary occurrence until now, as will appear by what I have yet to say.
The words are very distinctly formed; but by the bodily ear they are not heard. They are, however, much more clearly understood than they would be if they were heard by the ear. It is impossible not to understand them,

BTP-LOT17 – Extraordinary Mystical Phenomenon – The Life of St. Teresa of Avila – Beginning to Pray with Dr. Anthony Lilles – Discerning Hearts Podcast


The Nature of Spiritual Direction – The Life of St. Teresa of Avila – Beginning to Pray with Dr. Anthony Lilles
Dr. Anthony Lilles and Kris McGregor delve into the topic of spiritual direction, using insights from the experiences of St. Teresa of Avila. The significance of spiritual guidance and the challenges that can arise when seeking direction for one’s spiritual life, the importance of deep listening and discernment in spiritual direction, all highlighting the need for directors to recognize the work of the Holy Spirit in individuals’ lives.
Through the example of St. Teresa of Avila, they illustrate how effective spiritual direction can lead to greater spiritual freedom and growth, and provide practical advice for those seeking spiritual guidance.


For more episodes in this series: The Life of St. Teresa of Avila; with Dr. Anthony Lilles
For an audio version of the book  “The Life of St. Teresa of Jesus” by St. Teresa of Avila 
For other audio recordings of various spiritual classics, you can visit the Discerning Hearts Spiritual Classics page.

Discerning Hearts reflection questions for this episode:

* Understanding Spiritual Direction: How does this episode deepen your understanding of the role of spiritual direction in the Catholic faith?
* Importance of Deep Listening: Reflect on the significance of deep listening in the context of spiritual direction. How can deep listening enhance the effectiveness of spiritual guidance?
* Recognizing the Work of the Holy Spirit: Discuss the importance of recognizing the work of the Holy Spirit in individuals’ lives during spiritual direction. How can spiritual directors cultivate the ability to discern the movements of the Holy Spirit?
* Learning from Saint Teresa of Avila: What insights can we glean from the experiences of Saint Teresa of Avila regarding spiritual direction? How does her journey exemplify the principles discussed in the podcast?
* Seeking Spiritual Guidance: Reflect on the practical advice provided in the episode for those seeking spiritual guidance. How can individuals discern the right spiritual director or resources for their spiritual journey?
* Fostering Spiritual Freedom and Growth: Explore how effective spiritual direction can lead to greater spiritual freedom and growth. How does this align with your own experiences or aspirations in your spiritual life?
* Utilizing Online Resources: Consider the role of online resources like Discerning Hearts in providing spiritual guidance. How can these resources complement traditional forms of spiritual direction in today’s digital age?
* Application in Personal Spiritual Life: Reflect on how the insights shared in the podcast can be applied to your own spiritual life. What steps can you take to deepen your spiritual journey and seek guidance in your relationship with God?


An excerpt from Chapter 23, discussed in this episode:
“But if I was a little distracted, I began to be afraid, and to imagine that perhaps it was Satan that suspended my understanding, making me think it to be good, in order to withdraw me from mental prayer, hinder my meditation on the Passion, and debar me the use of my understanding: this seemed to me,

BTP-LOT16 – The Nature of Spiritual Direction – The Life of St. Teresa of Avila – Beginning to Pray with Dr. Anthony Lilles – Discerning Hearts Podcast


Episode 20 – “Heaven in Faith”  Day 10 Prayer 2  – “A praise of glory is a soul that lives in God” 
Dr. Anthony Lilles and Kris McGregor explore St. Elizabeth of the Trinity’s concept of becoming a “praise of glory” for the Holy Trinity; surrendering completely to God’s will, allowing the Holy Spirit to transform one’s soul into a reflection of God’s love and glory. This transformation involves living in pure love, silence, and faith, gazing upon God and allowing Him to radiate through oneself.
True prayer is not about achieving mental states or experiences but about surrendering to Christ and allowing His life to animate one’s own; asking for intercession to deepen one’s prayer life and encounter with God and cultivating a deep, intimate relationship with Christ, allowing Him to lead one to the depths of prayer and spiritual growth.


From “Heaven in Faith: Day 10 Prayer 2”:
“We have been predestined by the decree of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, so that we may be the praise of His glory.”
It is St. Paul who tells us this, St. Paul who was instructed by God Himself. How do we realize this great dream of the Heart of our God, this immutable will for our souls? In a word, how do we correspond to our vocation and become perfect Praises of Glory of the Most Holy Trinity?
“In Heaven” each soul is a praise of glory of the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, for each soul is established in pure love and “lives no longer its own life, but the life of God.” Then it knows Him, St. Paul says, as it is known by Him. In other words “its intellect is the intellect of God, its will the will of God, its love the very love of God. In reality it is the Spirit of love and of strength who transforms the soul, for to Him it has been given to supply what is lacking to the soul,” as St. Paul says again. “He works in it this glorious transformation.” St. John of the Cross affirms that “the soul surrendered to love, through the strength of the Holy Spirit, is not far from being raised to the degree of which we have just spoken,”180 even here below! This is what I call a perfect praise of glory!
A praise of glory is a soul that lives in God, that loves Him with a pure and disinterested love, without seeking itself in the sweetness of this love; that loves Him beyond all His gifts and even though it would not have received anything from Him, it desires the good of the Object thus loved. Now how do we effectively desire and will good to God if not in accomplishing His will since this will orders everything for His greater glory? Thus the soul must surrender itself to this will completely, passionately, so as to will nothing else but what God wills.
A praise of glory is a soul of silence that remains like a lyre under the mysterious touch of the Holy Spirit so that He may draw from it divine harmonies; it knows that suffering is a string that produces still more beautiful sounds; so it loves to see this string on its instrument that it may more delightfully move the Heart of its God.
A praise of glory is a soul that gazes on God in faith and simplicity; it is a reflector of all that He is; it is like a bottomless abyss into which He can flow and expand; it is also like a crystal through which He can radiate and contemplate all His perfections and His own splendor. A soul which thus permits the divine Being to satisfy in itself His need to communicate “all that He is and all that He has,” is in reality the praise of glory of all His gifts.
Finally, a praise of glory is one who is always giving thanks. Each of her acts, her movements, her thoughts, her aspirations, at the same time that they are rooting her more deeply in love, are like an echo of the eternal Sanctus.
In the Heaven of glory the blessed have no rest “day or night, saying: Holy, holy,

BTP-IC12 – Fifth Mansions Chapter 1 – The Interior Castle by St. Teresa of Avila – Beginning to Pray with Dr. Anthony Lilles Podcast

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