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But What About...Heaven
Episode 133 – But What About … Heaven
Welcome to Anchored by Truth brought to you by Crystal Sea Books. In John 14:6, Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life.” The goal of Anchored by Truth is to encourage everyone to grow in the Christian faith by anchoring themselves to the secure truth found in the inspired, inerrant, and infallible word of God.
Script:
The angel showed me a river that was crystal clear, and its waters gave life. The river came from the throne where God and the Lamb were seated. Then it flowed down the middle of the city's main street. On each side of the river are trees that grow a different kind of fruit each month of the year. The fruit gives life, and the leaves are used as medicine to heal the nations.
Revelation, chapter 22, verses 1 and 2, Contemporary English Version
********
VK: Hello. I’m Victoria K. Welcome to Anchored by Truth brought to you by Crystal Sea Books. Today, we are coming to the final episode of our study series we’ve called “But what about” because a lot of time you hear questions like “but what about angels and demons” or “what about heaven and hell?” So far in our series we have discussed the angels, demons, the Angel of the Lord, the Holy Spirit and hell. On today’s show we want to focus on the happiest topic of this series - but what about heaven. I’m in the studio today with RD Fierro, author and Founder of Crystal Sea Books. RD, why did you pick these topics to feature on this “but what about series?” I suppose we could probably have picked any number of others because there are so many topics in the Bible that cause some level of confusion in the minds of many Christians. Why did we focus on the topics we did?
RD: Well, before we get started I want to say a word of greeting and thanks to all the Anchored by Truth listeners. Thank you for joining us here today. We picked the topics we did because we wanted to spend some time focusing on the supernatural dimensions of the Christian faith – or you might say the unseen realm. Christianity is a faith that is firmly anchored in time and space. Unlike some religions you can go to a map and find the locations that are described in the Bible. We know where Jerusalem, Egypt, Syria, Greece, and Rome are. We not only know where they are today but we know where they were thousands of years ago. We can also determine when events described in the Bible took place. We know when the Philistines occupied the Mediterranean Coast of Palestine, the Babylonians conquered Judah, and Pontius Pilate was the Roman governor in Jerusalem. The Bible’s history is real history and the Bible’s descriptions of the world and physical phenomena can be confirmed.
VK: And that, by the way, includes the science that underscores the historicity of Genesis. We did a 10 episode series on Anchored by Truth called “The Truth in Genesis” to illustrate the accuracy of the opening chapters of Genesis. That series is available from our website, crystalseabooks.com, or most major podcast apps.
RD: Right. So, Christianity is firmly anchored in time and space but it is also a faith that recognizes that created reality includes more than just the things and world we can perceive with our five senses.
VK: And, as we have pointed out, if the Bible did not give us information about the unseen realm we might have reason to wonder whether the Bible had a supernatural point of origin. If the Bible only described things we can see and hear we could get the revelation the Bible contains from our own senses. But the Bible gives us evidence of its supernatural origin because it contains additional, special revelations. The Bible gives us information that we can only get from the Bible such as information about angels, heaven, and hell.
RD: Exactly. And it’s important to note that the information the Bible gives us about the unseen, supernatural realm isn’t just a sort of random inclusion. The information the Bible conveys about the supernatural is included for a specific purpose. Its inclusion is a part of God’s overall plan to redeem a people for Himself.
VK: In the case of hell, we are given stark images of the fate that awaits those who do not acknowledge God and Jesus as a warning. In the case of heaven, we are given images of a state of eternal joy, blessing, and bliss as a part of encouraging us to remain faithful even when our time on this earth is filled with tribulation and trouble.
RD: Yes. So, just as with the rest of the Bible, the Bible gives us information about the unseen realm for our benefit. God’s concern throughout the Bible is for the welfare of His people. Our awareness that there is a better destiny waiting for us can help us endure the struggles of this life as we strive to remain faithful to Jesus. So, it’s important for us to know that there is something better that is absolutely assured for everyone who trusts Christ as their Savior.
VK: And the destiny that awaits Christians is not just better, but far better. In Philippians, chapter 1, verse 23 the Apostle Paul says, “I am torn between the two. I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better indeed.” That’s the version in the Berean Study Bible. So, what do you think Paul means that it is “far better indeed” for him to depart and be with Christ.
RD: The Greek phrase that is translated there as “far better indeed” is a very emphatic one. Albert Barnes who wrote a Bible commentary in the mid 19th century says that “the apostle seems to labor for language which will fully convey his idea. It means, ‘by much more, or rather better,’ and the sense is, ‘better beyond all expression.’” The idea is that Paul knows, and he wants all Christians to know, that the very instant, millisecond we leave this life we are with Jesus and that life with Jesus will be so much better than anything we can envision on this earth.
VK: And in his first letter to the Corinthians Paul says that. 1 Corinthians, chapter 2, verses 9 and 10 Paul says, “… the Scriptures … say, “No eye has seen, no ear has heard, and no mind has imagined what God has prepared for those who love him.” Paul is literally saying no human mind ever has, or ever can, imagine the wonder, joy, and beauty God has prepared for His children.
RD: Correct. So, in Philippian 1:23 Paul is telling us something very important about heaven and it’s one of the key thoughts I want to emphasize for today. Sometimes we’re given these cartoon versions of heaven – of believers and angels sitting around on clouds playing harps. Or we’re told that in heaven we will worship continually – which is true – but the vision people have is believers sitting in a sort of really big, perhaps beautiful, church and singing hymns over and over. In other words, believers sometimes try to associate earthly ideas and concepts about worship and church with heaven. But I think that misses one of the main points about heaven. Heaven is not just a better version of earth. Heaven is an entirely different reality which is characterized by life, abundance, triumph, joy, and, yes, worship.
VK: The New Geneva Study Bible put it this way: To think of heaven as a “place” is more right than wrong though the word [place] could mislead. Scripture describes heaven as a spatial reality that touches and interpenetrates created space.” In other words, heaven is a place but it is not this place but just improved as somebody would remodel a house to update it or make it better. Heaven is a different kind of place than our creation.
RD: Right. And here is where the words and images get tricky. The Bible has to use human words to create to human beings and our words are like us – necessarily finite. So, the Bible uses analogies that we’re familiar with to try to get us on the right path when thinking about heaven. Heaven is filled with joy and bliss so one analog the Bible gives us reminds us one of the most joyous of earthly occasions - a wedding feast.
VK: Well, I’ve been to a couple of wedding dinners that were more chaotic than joyous.
RD: And that points out one of the huge differences between heaven and earth. The feasts and banquets in heaven are never chaotic or affected by the tensions that so often afflict earthly celebrations. But as human beings our view of the analogs that are used to describe heaven are inevitably tinged by the effects of our fallen creation and our fallen nature. That’s why the New Geneva Study Bible warns us that to think simply as a “place” can be misleading. Heaven isn’t just someplace other than earth. It is an entirely new reality into which believers will enter. And when we enter into that heavenly reality not only is the destination to which we’re heading different. We are different.
VK: Wow. That’s an amazing thought. It’s staggering in its own way. That throws a whole new light on 2 Corinthians, chapter 5, verse 17 where the Apostle Paul says, “Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old things have passed away; behold, the new has come into being.” That’s from the Berean Study Bible. As long as we are on this earth the “new creation” is unavoidably linked to the “old” person. So, believers receive a new spiritual life the moment they accept Christ but we are still in our old bodies with our sin-tainted minds. But when we leave this earth we leave all that behind – forever.
RD: Exactly. So, when we come into the presence of Christ – at first in what is sometimes termed the intermediate state – the remaining elements of our fallen, corrupted self fall away. As the final portion of 2 Corinthians 5:17 says “the new has come into being.” When we leave this earth we can now experience our relationship with Jesus and with others in a brand new way. At first we experience that in an intermediate state – a state where our spirit is with Jesus but we will not yet have received our glorified, resurrected body. That occurs after Jesus’ 2nd coming and the final judgment. But even in the intermediate state we are with Jesus in heaven.
VK: You said that heaven is an entirely different reality which is characterized by life, abundance, triumph, joy, and, worship. So, what you’re saying is that we begin to enjoy those experiences immediately after death, but the height, depth, and breadth of those blessings only starts then. The life, joy, abundance and all the rest will grow for believers throughout all eternity.
RD: Exactly. It’s not possible but let’s suppose you could take all the wonderful, beautiful experiences of your life and somehow extract the joy, wonder, happiness, and exhilaration, out of all them. Out of all the birthday parties and Christmases you’ve had. Out of finding out that the person you love really does love you. Out of your wedding, and birth of your children and grandchildren. Out of watching your team come from behind against a top ranked team and pull out a win or out of you scoring the game winning points in that game. Out of all the sunrises and sunsets you’ve seen from the beach or the mountain. Out of all of the grandeur you feel listening to beautiful music or watching an amazing dance. If you could condense all of the beauty, wonder, and bliss you have received in this life and push it all together it wouldn’t equal the joy and happiness we are going to feel in one second in heaven with Jesus.
VK: That’s a lot to take in. Anyone who is older than 4 or 5 has had some moments of happiness and joy but they’ve also had times of pain and regret. And some people who are pretty old have led very blessed lives so they’ve experienced a lot of pain, loss, and agony but they’ve also experienced a lot of beauty, joy, and bliss. So, to think that the first second with Jesus will dwarf all that emotion and feeling of an entire lifetime is a pretty staggering thought.
RD: Yes. It is. And even that doesn’t begin to convey the reality of heaven because as we’ve been saying it’s not just that heaven is far, far better than this world – we will be far, far different than we are in this fallen creation. We will be better people in a better reality and most importantly we will have a better relationship with the Lord.
VK: The New Geneva Study Bible says this: “We can form an idea of the perfect life in heaven from what we experience imperfectly now.” So, that’s what the Bible is doing for us when it compares heaven to a wedding feast or banquet. Wedding feats and banquets are joyous occasions so we can know a little about the joy of heaven be thinking about the joy that goes along them. And we can know something about the abundant life of heaven from our opening scripture which says, “The angel showed me a river that was crystal clear, and its waters gave life. The river came from the throne where God and the Lamb were seated. Then it flowed down the middle of the city's main street. On each side of the river are trees that grow a different kind of fruit each month of the year. The fruit gives life, and the leaves are used as medicine to heal the nations.”
RD: Right. Notice that the central images of those verses from Revelation are life and abundance.
VK: And the life and abundance flow from God and Jesus because those verses say the river came from the throne where God and Jesus are seated.
RD: Right. So, heaven is characterized by life and abundance.
VK: So, that’s why you had Maria in your book The Prodigal’s Advocate tell the Prodigal “But in the Advocate’s land, no one ever lacks anything. His kingdom is defined by abundance. Scarcity is not only unknown, it’s impossible. The Advocate is so generous that before we will ever recognize that we want anything, He will already have supplied it. His kingdom is so big that it contains everything anybody could conceive of wishing for.”
RD: Yes. Heaven is characterized by life and abundance. Now I think there might be a tendency to think that the joy and bliss we feel are the natural consequences of all that life and abundance.
VK: And worship for God who is the source of all the abundance would be a natural response to joy and bliss. Correct?
RD: Sort of. But I think we have to be careful. Heaven is characterized by life and abundance and for human beings happiness and joy are a natural response to having everything our hearts could desire. But I don’t want to get things backward. The primary business of heaven is not to give us everything we want or could have wanted. The primary business of heaven is to give us what every human being needs most – a direct apprehension of our Father, Creator, and Savior and a truly intimate relationship with Him. It’s not too strong a statement to say that our primary activity in heaven is worship but again the words become tricky.
VK: What you’re saying is that on this earth many people think of worship like they do any other human activity. We set aside time to eat, work, use the computer, exercise, watch sports, whatever – and we see worship in the same vein. Worship is what we do at church or when we say grace before a meal. For the more faithful of us maybe we set aside our own private times of worship where we read the Bible and pray – hopefully regularly. But even for those who do that we tend to think of worship as a separate activity that we fit into our overall life schedules.
RD: Yes. But even on this earth it is possible to understand worship differently. The New Living Translation of Colossians 3:23 tells us to “Work willingly at whatever you do, as though you were working for the Lord rather than for people.” Or said a little differently, it is possible even on this earth and in this fallen creation to not just confine our worship to time we are in church, prayer, or reading the Bible. Our service and worship to God should be the central focus of lives here.
VK: Because it will definitely be the focus of our life in heaven?
RD: Yes. So, while heaven is characterized by life and abundance that life and abundance is not primarily what heaven is all about.
VK: What you’re saying is that heaven is first and foremost heaven because in heaven we will have unbroken communion with God. 1 Corinthians, chapter 13, verse 12 and 13 say, “Now we see things imperfectly, like puzzling reflections in a mirror, but then we will see everything with perfect clarity. All that I know now is partial and incomplete, but then I will know everything completely, just as God now knows me completely. Three things will last forever—faith, hope, and love—and the greatest of these is love.” That’s the New Living Translation.
RD: Yes. When believers die they immediately enter into the presence of Jesus and from that morning forward our communion with Jesus enters a new phase.
VK: 2 Corinthians, chapter 5, verse 8 tells us that to be absent from the body is to be present with Christ.
RD: So, in this new phase of our relationship we will continue what we began on this earth. But we enter that phase without being afflicted by our old sin nature. That dropped off us as if we tossed off an old set of rags we were wearing and then everyone could see the beautiful outfit that was underneath. At first in the intermediate state we live with that first outfit, but after Jesus’ 2nd coming we will receive an even better outfit. One day, our eternal spirit will be clothed with a body that is not only eternal but also imperishable. And, as the Apostle Paul then we will know God in the same way that God knows us today.
VK: That, of course, doesn’t mean that we will know God exhaustively. We can never do that. God is infinite and we are finite.
RD: We will not know God exhaustively but we will know God directly, immediately and we will not have a sin nature that will affect our vision. So, in that state of unbroken communion with God we also enjoy the benefits of being in the immediate presence of the One who is the source of all things good. Notice that in the verses from Revelation the river gives life and the fruit of the trees also give life. And unlike trees on this earth even the leaves of those trees have healing properties.
VK: This is not to imply that there is sickness in heaven but what the book of Revelation is doing is drawing a contrast between the new heavens and new earth and the old one. In the Garden of Eden there was one tree of life. But in heaven, trees that bear fruit that gives life are planted all along the river that flows through the city. And those trees don’t just have a harvest once a year – like most trees on earth - they have fruit every month of the year. And there’s no barrier to anyone picking the fruit. It’s open to everyone all the time.
RD: Heaven is characterized by life and abundance but we must keep in mind that the life and abundance is present because we are with God. Our focus and worship will be on God but God is a king and the king is always going to be sure that His subjects could never want for anything. Contrast this with hell, where not only isn’t there life and abundance there is nothing but want and misery. Remember the story of Lazarus and the rich man we heard last time. The rich man in hell could not obtain anything he wanted. No water for his tongue, no relief from the flames, and there was no way for him to warn his brothers not to join him. It’s trite but true. The choices we make on this earth have eternal consequences.
VK: And that’s why we do people a disservice if we try to tamper with the plain language that we get in scripture. Jesus is the figure in the Bible who talks most about hell and He gave a graphic warning about what it would be like to be consigned there. But we would also do people a disservice if we don’t try to elevate their understanding of the beauty and majesty of heaven. It’s like you said. Heaven is not just a better place than our fallen creation. It is certainly that. But heaven is also a place of transformation for all who have put their trust in Christ. Believers are transformed into new, far more beautiful creations and in their transformed state they are able to experience a level of communion with God that is literally impossible here. That’s why when we talk about heaven being a place of continual worship we can actually yearn for that experience. We will naturally worship that for which we have the greatest love. In heaven we will not only love as transformed beings but we will be able to experience God’s love for us at a level that would shake our mortal bodies apart here.
RD: Amen. Ask any young – or old – person how much time they want to spend with a new sweetheart and they will tell you “all of it.” That sense of romantic human affection and connection is just a pale foretaste of what our eternity in heaven will be like all the time. Even believers who never experienced that on earth will experience it in heaven. Life and abundance characterize heaven before life and abundance are attributes of God. He overflows with them. The Garden of Eden possessed those attributes but Adam and Eve relinquished them when they rebelled. In heaven we reclaim continuous life and abundance not because of anything we will do but because of what God and Jesus have already done. They want to shower their goodness on their beloved – which amazingly enough is us. They would gladly shower life and abundance – and love – on all people but sadly some people simply reject their offer.
VK: So, what you’re saying is that just as people in hell are denied even the comfort of claiming that they were put their unfairly in heaven we cannot avoid joy, beauty, inspiration, and adoration because they will all be before us in the presence of God and Jesus. And we will be so transformed that it will be in our very nature to respond unreservedly to the gifts they give.
RD: Right. People who accept Christ as their Savior have already been transformed spiritually but we still live in decaying bodies. One day we will rise from these decaying bodies and receive not only new, glorified bodies but a glorified creation in which we will spend eternity.
VK: Well, this sounds like a good time to go to God in prayer. Since Veterans Day is right around the corner today let’s listen to a prayer for all those who have so selflessly given of themselves to protect their nation and their communities so we can continue to worship and live freely.
---- PRAYER FOR VETERANS DAY
We hope you’ll be with us next time and we hope you’ll take some time to encourage some friends to tune in too, or listen to the podcast version of this show. If you’d like to hear more, try out crystalseabooks.com where “We’re not famous but our Boss is!”
(Bible Quote from the Contemporary English Version)
Revelation, chapter 22, verses 1 and 2, Contemporary English Version
Topical Bible: Heaven (biblehub.com)
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By R.D.Fierro
5
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Episode 133 – But What About … Heaven
Welcome to Anchored by Truth brought to you by Crystal Sea Books. In John 14:6, Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life.” The goal of Anchored by Truth is to encourage everyone to grow in the Christian faith by anchoring themselves to the secure truth found in the inspired, inerrant, and infallible word of God.
Script:
The angel showed me a river that was crystal clear, and its waters gave life. The river came from the throne where God and the Lamb were seated. Then it flowed down the middle of the city's main street. On each side of the river are trees that grow a different kind of fruit each month of the year. The fruit gives life, and the leaves are used as medicine to heal the nations.
Revelation, chapter 22, verses 1 and 2, Contemporary English Version
********
VK: Hello. I’m Victoria K. Welcome to Anchored by Truth brought to you by Crystal Sea Books. Today, we are coming to the final episode of our study series we’ve called “But what about” because a lot of time you hear questions like “but what about angels and demons” or “what about heaven and hell?” So far in our series we have discussed the angels, demons, the Angel of the Lord, the Holy Spirit and hell. On today’s show we want to focus on the happiest topic of this series - but what about heaven. I’m in the studio today with RD Fierro, author and Founder of Crystal Sea Books. RD, why did you pick these topics to feature on this “but what about series?” I suppose we could probably have picked any number of others because there are so many topics in the Bible that cause some level of confusion in the minds of many Christians. Why did we focus on the topics we did?
RD: Well, before we get started I want to say a word of greeting and thanks to all the Anchored by Truth listeners. Thank you for joining us here today. We picked the topics we did because we wanted to spend some time focusing on the supernatural dimensions of the Christian faith – or you might say the unseen realm. Christianity is a faith that is firmly anchored in time and space. Unlike some religions you can go to a map and find the locations that are described in the Bible. We know where Jerusalem, Egypt, Syria, Greece, and Rome are. We not only know where they are today but we know where they were thousands of years ago. We can also determine when events described in the Bible took place. We know when the Philistines occupied the Mediterranean Coast of Palestine, the Babylonians conquered Judah, and Pontius Pilate was the Roman governor in Jerusalem. The Bible’s history is real history and the Bible’s descriptions of the world and physical phenomena can be confirmed.
VK: And that, by the way, includes the science that underscores the historicity of Genesis. We did a 10 episode series on Anchored by Truth called “The Truth in Genesis” to illustrate the accuracy of the opening chapters of Genesis. That series is available from our website, crystalseabooks.com, or most major podcast apps.
RD: Right. So, Christianity is firmly anchored in time and space but it is also a faith that recognizes that created reality includes more than just the things and world we can perceive with our five senses.
VK: And, as we have pointed out, if the Bible did not give us information about the unseen realm we might have reason to wonder whether the Bible had a supernatural point of origin. If the Bible only described things we can see and hear we could get the revelation the Bible contains from our own senses. But the Bible gives us evidence of its supernatural origin because it contains additional, special revelations. The Bible gives us information that we can only get from the Bible such as information about angels, heaven, and hell.
RD: Exactly. And it’s important to note that the information the Bible gives us about the unseen, supernatural realm isn’t just a sort of random inclusion. The information the Bible conveys about the supernatural is included for a specific purpose. Its inclusion is a part of God’s overall plan to redeem a people for Himself.
VK: In the case of hell, we are given stark images of the fate that awaits those who do not acknowledge God and Jesus as a warning. In the case of heaven, we are given images of a state of eternal joy, blessing, and bliss as a part of encouraging us to remain faithful even when our time on this earth is filled with tribulation and trouble.
RD: Yes. So, just as with the rest of the Bible, the Bible gives us information about the unseen realm for our benefit. God’s concern throughout the Bible is for the welfare of His people. Our awareness that there is a better destiny waiting for us can help us endure the struggles of this life as we strive to remain faithful to Jesus. So, it’s important for us to know that there is something better that is absolutely assured for everyone who trusts Christ as their Savior.
VK: And the destiny that awaits Christians is not just better, but far better. In Philippians, chapter 1, verse 23 the Apostle Paul says, “I am torn between the two. I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better indeed.” That’s the version in the Berean Study Bible. So, what do you think Paul means that it is “far better indeed” for him to depart and be with Christ.
RD: The Greek phrase that is translated there as “far better indeed” is a very emphatic one. Albert Barnes who wrote a Bible commentary in the mid 19th century says that “the apostle seems to labor for language which will fully convey his idea. It means, ‘by much more, or rather better,’ and the sense is, ‘better beyond all expression.’” The idea is that Paul knows, and he wants all Christians to know, that the very instant, millisecond we leave this life we are with Jesus and that life with Jesus will be so much better than anything we can envision on this earth.
VK: And in his first letter to the Corinthians Paul says that. 1 Corinthians, chapter 2, verses 9 and 10 Paul says, “… the Scriptures … say, “No eye has seen, no ear has heard, and no mind has imagined what God has prepared for those who love him.” Paul is literally saying no human mind ever has, or ever can, imagine the wonder, joy, and beauty God has prepared for His children.
RD: Correct. So, in Philippian 1:23 Paul is telling us something very important about heaven and it’s one of the key thoughts I want to emphasize for today. Sometimes we’re given these cartoon versions of heaven – of believers and angels sitting around on clouds playing harps. Or we’re told that in heaven we will worship continually – which is true – but the vision people have is believers sitting in a sort of really big, perhaps beautiful, church and singing hymns over and over. In other words, believers sometimes try to associate earthly ideas and concepts about worship and church with heaven. But I think that misses one of the main points about heaven. Heaven is not just a better version of earth. Heaven is an entirely different reality which is characterized by life, abundance, triumph, joy, and, yes, worship.
VK: The New Geneva Study Bible put it this way: To think of heaven as a “place” is more right than wrong though the word [place] could mislead. Scripture describes heaven as a spatial reality that touches and interpenetrates created space.” In other words, heaven is a place but it is not this place but just improved as somebody would remodel a house to update it or make it better. Heaven is a different kind of place than our creation.
RD: Right. And here is where the words and images get tricky. The Bible has to use human words to create to human beings and our words are like us – necessarily finite. So, the Bible uses analogies that we’re familiar with to try to get us on the right path when thinking about heaven. Heaven is filled with joy and bliss so one analog the Bible gives us reminds us one of the most joyous of earthly occasions - a wedding feast.
VK: Well, I’ve been to a couple of wedding dinners that were more chaotic than joyous.
RD: And that points out one of the huge differences between heaven and earth. The feasts and banquets in heaven are never chaotic or affected by the tensions that so often afflict earthly celebrations. But as human beings our view of the analogs that are used to describe heaven are inevitably tinged by the effects of our fallen creation and our fallen nature. That’s why the New Geneva Study Bible warns us that to think simply as a “place” can be misleading. Heaven isn’t just someplace other than earth. It is an entirely new reality into which believers will enter. And when we enter into that heavenly reality not only is the destination to which we’re heading different. We are different.
VK: Wow. That’s an amazing thought. It’s staggering in its own way. That throws a whole new light on 2 Corinthians, chapter 5, verse 17 where the Apostle Paul says, “Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old things have passed away; behold, the new has come into being.” That’s from the Berean Study Bible. As long as we are on this earth the “new creation” is unavoidably linked to the “old” person. So, believers receive a new spiritual life the moment they accept Christ but we are still in our old bodies with our sin-tainted minds. But when we leave this earth we leave all that behind – forever.
RD: Exactly. So, when we come into the presence of Christ – at first in what is sometimes termed the intermediate state – the remaining elements of our fallen, corrupted self fall away. As the final portion of 2 Corinthians 5:17 says “the new has come into being.” When we leave this earth we can now experience our relationship with Jesus and with others in a brand new way. At first we experience that in an intermediate state – a state where our spirit is with Jesus but we will not yet have received our glorified, resurrected body. That occurs after Jesus’ 2nd coming and the final judgment. But even in the intermediate state we are with Jesus in heaven.
VK: You said that heaven is an entirely different reality which is characterized by life, abundance, triumph, joy, and, worship. So, what you’re saying is that we begin to enjoy those experiences immediately after death, but the height, depth, and breadth of those blessings only starts then. The life, joy, abundance and all the rest will grow for believers throughout all eternity.
RD: Exactly. It’s not possible but let’s suppose you could take all the wonderful, beautiful experiences of your life and somehow extract the joy, wonder, happiness, and exhilaration, out of all them. Out of all the birthday parties and Christmases you’ve had. Out of finding out that the person you love really does love you. Out of your wedding, and birth of your children and grandchildren. Out of watching your team come from behind against a top ranked team and pull out a win or out of you scoring the game winning points in that game. Out of all the sunrises and sunsets you’ve seen from the beach or the mountain. Out of all of the grandeur you feel listening to beautiful music or watching an amazing dance. If you could condense all of the beauty, wonder, and bliss you have received in this life and push it all together it wouldn’t equal the joy and happiness we are going to feel in one second in heaven with Jesus.
VK: That’s a lot to take in. Anyone who is older than 4 or 5 has had some moments of happiness and joy but they’ve also had times of pain and regret. And some people who are pretty old have led very blessed lives so they’ve experienced a lot of pain, loss, and agony but they’ve also experienced a lot of beauty, joy, and bliss. So, to think that the first second with Jesus will dwarf all that emotion and feeling of an entire lifetime is a pretty staggering thought.
RD: Yes. It is. And even that doesn’t begin to convey the reality of heaven because as we’ve been saying it’s not just that heaven is far, far better than this world – we will be far, far different than we are in this fallen creation. We will be better people in a better reality and most importantly we will have a better relationship with the Lord.
VK: The New Geneva Study Bible says this: “We can form an idea of the perfect life in heaven from what we experience imperfectly now.” So, that’s what the Bible is doing for us when it compares heaven to a wedding feast or banquet. Wedding feats and banquets are joyous occasions so we can know a little about the joy of heaven be thinking about the joy that goes along them. And we can know something about the abundant life of heaven from our opening scripture which says, “The angel showed me a river that was crystal clear, and its waters gave life. The river came from the throne where God and the Lamb were seated. Then it flowed down the middle of the city's main street. On each side of the river are trees that grow a different kind of fruit each month of the year. The fruit gives life, and the leaves are used as medicine to heal the nations.”
RD: Right. Notice that the central images of those verses from Revelation are life and abundance.
VK: And the life and abundance flow from God and Jesus because those verses say the river came from the throne where God and Jesus are seated.
RD: Right. So, heaven is characterized by life and abundance.
VK: So, that’s why you had Maria in your book The Prodigal’s Advocate tell the Prodigal “But in the Advocate’s land, no one ever lacks anything. His kingdom is defined by abundance. Scarcity is not only unknown, it’s impossible. The Advocate is so generous that before we will ever recognize that we want anything, He will already have supplied it. His kingdom is so big that it contains everything anybody could conceive of wishing for.”
RD: Yes. Heaven is characterized by life and abundance. Now I think there might be a tendency to think that the joy and bliss we feel are the natural consequences of all that life and abundance.
VK: And worship for God who is the source of all the abundance would be a natural response to joy and bliss. Correct?
RD: Sort of. But I think we have to be careful. Heaven is characterized by life and abundance and for human beings happiness and joy are a natural response to having everything our hearts could desire. But I don’t want to get things backward. The primary business of heaven is not to give us everything we want or could have wanted. The primary business of heaven is to give us what every human being needs most – a direct apprehension of our Father, Creator, and Savior and a truly intimate relationship with Him. It’s not too strong a statement to say that our primary activity in heaven is worship but again the words become tricky.
VK: What you’re saying is that on this earth many people think of worship like they do any other human activity. We set aside time to eat, work, use the computer, exercise, watch sports, whatever – and we see worship in the same vein. Worship is what we do at church or when we say grace before a meal. For the more faithful of us maybe we set aside our own private times of worship where we read the Bible and pray – hopefully regularly. But even for those who do that we tend to think of worship as a separate activity that we fit into our overall life schedules.
RD: Yes. But even on this earth it is possible to understand worship differently. The New Living Translation of Colossians 3:23 tells us to “Work willingly at whatever you do, as though you were working for the Lord rather than for people.” Or said a little differently, it is possible even on this earth and in this fallen creation to not just confine our worship to time we are in church, prayer, or reading the Bible. Our service and worship to God should be the central focus of lives here.
VK: Because it will definitely be the focus of our life in heaven?
RD: Yes. So, while heaven is characterized by life and abundance that life and abundance is not primarily what heaven is all about.
VK: What you’re saying is that heaven is first and foremost heaven because in heaven we will have unbroken communion with God. 1 Corinthians, chapter 13, verse 12 and 13 say, “Now we see things imperfectly, like puzzling reflections in a mirror, but then we will see everything with perfect clarity. All that I know now is partial and incomplete, but then I will know everything completely, just as God now knows me completely. Three things will last forever—faith, hope, and love—and the greatest of these is love.” That’s the New Living Translation.
RD: Yes. When believers die they immediately enter into the presence of Jesus and from that morning forward our communion with Jesus enters a new phase.
VK: 2 Corinthians, chapter 5, verse 8 tells us that to be absent from the body is to be present with Christ.
RD: So, in this new phase of our relationship we will continue what we began on this earth. But we enter that phase without being afflicted by our old sin nature. That dropped off us as if we tossed off an old set of rags we were wearing and then everyone could see the beautiful outfit that was underneath. At first in the intermediate state we live with that first outfit, but after Jesus’ 2nd coming we will receive an even better outfit. One day, our eternal spirit will be clothed with a body that is not only eternal but also imperishable. And, as the Apostle Paul then we will know God in the same way that God knows us today.
VK: That, of course, doesn’t mean that we will know God exhaustively. We can never do that. God is infinite and we are finite.
RD: We will not know God exhaustively but we will know God directly, immediately and we will not have a sin nature that will affect our vision. So, in that state of unbroken communion with God we also enjoy the benefits of being in the immediate presence of the One who is the source of all things good. Notice that in the verses from Revelation the river gives life and the fruit of the trees also give life. And unlike trees on this earth even the leaves of those trees have healing properties.
VK: This is not to imply that there is sickness in heaven but what the book of Revelation is doing is drawing a contrast between the new heavens and new earth and the old one. In the Garden of Eden there was one tree of life. But in heaven, trees that bear fruit that gives life are planted all along the river that flows through the city. And those trees don’t just have a harvest once a year – like most trees on earth - they have fruit every month of the year. And there’s no barrier to anyone picking the fruit. It’s open to everyone all the time.
RD: Heaven is characterized by life and abundance but we must keep in mind that the life and abundance is present because we are with God. Our focus and worship will be on God but God is a king and the king is always going to be sure that His subjects could never want for anything. Contrast this with hell, where not only isn’t there life and abundance there is nothing but want and misery. Remember the story of Lazarus and the rich man we heard last time. The rich man in hell could not obtain anything he wanted. No water for his tongue, no relief from the flames, and there was no way for him to warn his brothers not to join him. It’s trite but true. The choices we make on this earth have eternal consequences.
VK: And that’s why we do people a disservice if we try to tamper with the plain language that we get in scripture. Jesus is the figure in the Bible who talks most about hell and He gave a graphic warning about what it would be like to be consigned there. But we would also do people a disservice if we don’t try to elevate their understanding of the beauty and majesty of heaven. It’s like you said. Heaven is not just a better place than our fallen creation. It is certainly that. But heaven is also a place of transformation for all who have put their trust in Christ. Believers are transformed into new, far more beautiful creations and in their transformed state they are able to experience a level of communion with God that is literally impossible here. That’s why when we talk about heaven being a place of continual worship we can actually yearn for that experience. We will naturally worship that for which we have the greatest love. In heaven we will not only love as transformed beings but we will be able to experience God’s love for us at a level that would shake our mortal bodies apart here.
RD: Amen. Ask any young – or old – person how much time they want to spend with a new sweetheart and they will tell you “all of it.” That sense of romantic human affection and connection is just a pale foretaste of what our eternity in heaven will be like all the time. Even believers who never experienced that on earth will experience it in heaven. Life and abundance characterize heaven before life and abundance are attributes of God. He overflows with them. The Garden of Eden possessed those attributes but Adam and Eve relinquished them when they rebelled. In heaven we reclaim continuous life and abundance not because of anything we will do but because of what God and Jesus have already done. They want to shower their goodness on their beloved – which amazingly enough is us. They would gladly shower life and abundance – and love – on all people but sadly some people simply reject their offer.
VK: So, what you’re saying is that just as people in hell are denied even the comfort of claiming that they were put their unfairly in heaven we cannot avoid joy, beauty, inspiration, and adoration because they will all be before us in the presence of God and Jesus. And we will be so transformed that it will be in our very nature to respond unreservedly to the gifts they give.
RD: Right. People who accept Christ as their Savior have already been transformed spiritually but we still live in decaying bodies. One day we will rise from these decaying bodies and receive not only new, glorified bodies but a glorified creation in which we will spend eternity.
VK: Well, this sounds like a good time to go to God in prayer. Since Veterans Day is right around the corner today let’s listen to a prayer for all those who have so selflessly given of themselves to protect their nation and their communities so we can continue to worship and live freely.
---- PRAYER FOR VETERANS DAY
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(Bible Quote from the Contemporary English Version)
Revelation, chapter 22, verses 1 and 2, Contemporary English Version
Topical Bible: Heaven (biblehub.com)