In April 2019, artist Roxy Farhat and curator Gaby Cepeda met at Index to talk at Roxy Farhat’s exhibition WUH-PSHHH. In this conversation regarding the need to rethink, their discussion takes on productivity, carving spaces, art and systematic stress, loving and hating what you are doing, open letters to Kim Kardashian, being lazy, capitalism, collective practices, race, feminism and queer approaches.  Now, Index re-activates the conversation as a podcast. Listen again now to their reflections from a year ago, enduringly relevant today.  Carving Spaces is organised as a part of Spaces of Care, Disobedience and Desire: Tactics of Minority Space-Making, a collaborative research project initiated by Rado Ištok, Marie-Louise Richards and Natália Rebelo, supported by the artistic research and development funding of the Royal Institute of Art in Stockholm.