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Cay Horstmann: Java Still Vibrant After 30 Years
Duke’s Corner Java Podcast: Cay Horstmann: Java Still Vibrant After 30 Years
Jim Grisanzio from Java Developer Relations talks with Cay Horstmann, a professor, author, and Java Champion. In April 2025 in Cologne, Germany at JCON Cay received the Java Community Lifetime Achievement recognition from Sharat Chander on the Oracle Java Developer Relations Team.
This conversation covers the evolution of Java, the constant polishing of the library, the upcoming Java 25 release, the six-month release cycle, improvements in the Java language to make the technology more beginner friendly, teaching methodologies, conferences vs unconferences, and also timeless task-driven learning methods for students and developers to keep their skills sharp. Also, Cay has been writing books about Java for decades and years ago he was instrumental in initially getting Java integrated into the curriculum for the computer science AP exam in the United States.
“One of the reasons why Java is still so vibrant 30 years in is that there is a constant stream of low-level innovation going on. It’s pretty amazing.”
Links on the web for this conversation: Apple | Bluesky | Libsyn | LinkedIn | LinkedIn | LinkedIn | LinkedIn | Flickr | Flickr | Flickr | WordPress | WordPress | X | X | X | X | YouTube | YouTube | YouTube. All of Duke’s Corner Java Podcasts can be found here. Here are more quotes from the conversation below:
Links: Apple | Bluesky | Libsyn | LinkedIn | LinkedIn | LinkedIn | LinkedIn | Flickr | Flickr | Flickr | WordPress | WordPress | X | X | X | X | YouTube | YouTube | YouTube
Java’s Vibrancy and Evolution
Java’s Continuous Low-Level InnovationTimestamp: 00:13:45–00:14:12Context: Cay discusses why Java remains vibrant after 30 years, emphasizing the impact of the Java six-month release cycle and the steady stream of incremental improvements. He contrasts this with how individual features might not seem groundbreaking alone in any given release, but cumulatively they drive significant progress. He also ties this process to the natural competition among programming languages, where Java’s consistent updates help it stay relevant in a fast-evolving field.Quote: “And I think one of the reasons that Java is so vibrant 30 years in is that it’s doing a really good job. I mean, if you think about it, every six months, there’s a new version that has some features that some are interested in for some people, some for others. And there is a constant stream of low-level innovation going on. Very few of these features seem like momentous on their own, but altogether, it is pretty amazing.”
Polished Java Library Through Continuous RefinementTimestamp: 00:07:05–00:07:33Context: Cay highlights how Java’s library has been refined over decades, making it more polished and user-friendly compared to other languages. He explains that this comes from ongoing attention to the API, where small complications are identified and simplified over time, and while each change might seem minor in isolation, the repeated process over 20 to 30 years results in a highly refined system that stands out for its logic and ease of use.Quote: “There is the evolution, but there’s also the constant polishing of the library. So the API gets attention. You say, this is just a little bit too complicated. And someone says, yeah, sure. And then some small simplification comes. It never looks [like] much of a deal once, but repeat that over 20, 30 years, and you have really a super polished library. You do not have that with other languages.”
Java 25 and Beginner-Friendliness
Simplifying Java for BeginnersTimestamp: 00:08:49–00:09:16Context: Cay explains how updates in Java 25 will reduce syntactic complexity for beginners by removing the need for a class in simple programs and improving I/O methods. He notes that while beginners have historically managed with templates, this change makes the language less intimidating from the start, and he appreciates its regularity compared to Python’s mix of top-level code and methods, which allows for a smoother introduction to programming concepts without unnecessary distractions.Quote: “Nevertheless, Java 25 now does make this a lot easier. You now no longer have to have a class for simple programs. You still do need to have a main method, which I think is actually fine because it’s more regular than Python. In Python, you have a slightly confusing mix of top-level code and then methods. And in Java, it’s just methods for simple programs.”
Visual Clarity in Java 25 for Educational ContentTimestamp: 00:09:16–00:09:49Context: Reflecting on rewriting his textbook, Cay notes how Java 25’s simplified syntax reduces visual clutter, benefiting students and textbook authors. He describes how textbooks often feature numerous small sample programs, unlike larger developer projects, and removing elements like public static void main makes the code less overwhelming visually, allowing developers to focus on core ideas rather than ceremonial syntax that can distract them while learning.Quote: “At first I thought, you know, big deal, but now I’ve rewritten the first three chapters of Core Java with this and I really, really like it. It just is visually less distracting when you write a textbook. There’s lots and lots of small sample programs… and public static void main, you know, if you even have one in a framework, you would never even have it. But in a textbook, yeah, it’s nice.”
Simplified I/O in Java 25Timestamp: 00:10:24–00:10:33Context: Cay discusses how Java 25 introduces simpler I/O methods, making it easier for beginners to learn and use. He says that this eliminates odd constructs like system.out, replacing them with straightforward static methods, which helps beginners master a few key concepts early on and progress smoothly for the first several weeks before transitioning to more advanced object-oriented features. Quote: “To read something now, you no longer need to use system.out, which was always kind of an odd beast. You just say io.printon. It’s a static method.”
Teaching and Learning Methodologies
Task-Driven Learning for Lifelong SkillsTimestamp: 00:19:42–00:20:10Context: Cay advocates for task-driven learning, where students engage with material through hands-on experimentation, which he believes is more effective than traditional lectures. He stresses that while learning the basics is necessary, the real value comes from applying them in practical ways, which encourages trial and error to build motivation and skills. This approach aligns with how professionals tinker and iterate in real-world work scenarios.Quote: “You really want the learner to engage with the material by trying things out, by kicking the tires, by failing and then succeeding. There are some times when you need some fundamentals, you can’t build without knowing some basics. So I’m not against teaching those as facts. But then you quickly want to motivate students by putting things to work.”
Teaching Students to Learn How to LearnTimestamp: 00:18:11–00:18:29Context: Reflecting on his teaching career, Cay emphasizes that teaching students how to learn is more valuable than pushing specific subject matter, which is especially important given the rapid evolution of technology. He shares how he shifted focus from content delivery to guiding students through vast information landscapes, helping them navigate changes like in Android programming where details quickly become obsolete.Quote: “I realized that subject matter really does not matter that much because it changes anyway. What really mattered to me is how students could learn to learn better, and how they could find their own way in that morass of materials out there.”
Interactive Learning in Small ClassesTimestamp: 00:18:39–00:18:58Context: Cay describes the shift from large lectures to small, interactive lab sessions where students collaboratively fix outdated code, promotes practical learning. He explains that by using last year’s notes as a starting point, students learn to adapt to shifts in technology, identifying principles for troubleshooting and using tools like AI or Stack Overflow to aid the process.Quote: “I really stopped lecturing. We had, like, a lab session every day where I said, here are the lecture notes from last year, none of this stuff works anymore, let’s fix it together. And in fact, none of this stuff did work anymore because this or that shifted. And so then what we really learned is how can you tease out the underlying principles that help you understand where even to look for the failures?”
Challenges of AI Tools in EducationTimestamp: 00:23:46–00:24:07Context: Cay addresses the challenge of students using AI tools like chatbots to complete homework, emphasizing the importance of learning through personal effort. He observes that while younger students seem to intuitively know when to avoid these tools, older ones struggle, and he compares it to self-practice in other skills, noting that exercises are meant for cognitive development, not just output.Quote: “What’s the value in that though, right? It’s not that people want to have another program that prints prime numbers. It’s that those exercises are there to make you think and to make you a better programmer. And so at that point, one needs to learn. And for students, this is hard. One needs to learn not to use the chatbot. I mean, it’s just like if you want to learn Italian or to play the piano, you need to do it yourself.”
Contributing to the Java Community
Instrumental Role in Java’s AP Curriculum IntegrationTimestamp: 00:04:39–00:05:02Context: Cay remembers his role in helping integrate Java into the U.S. Advanced Placement Computer Science Curriculum when he was advocating for a minimal subset of Java to focus on fundamentals. He mentions being invited to the committee due to his expertise in Java books and teaching, and how they successfully transitioned from C++ while resisting too many additions that could complicate the course unnecessarily.Quote: “And so we actually managed to do that. I was very proud that we did not just switch to Java, but we switched to the smallest possible subset of Java that we could. Because I felt that the programming language should not be the key of this course. It is a course in fundamentals of computer science.”
Blogging and Conference ContributionsTimestamp: 00:03:11–00:03:35Context: Cay reflects on his contributions to the Java ecosystem through writing books, blogging, and speaking at conferences, which he initially underestimated as community work. He describes the effort involved in daily blogging at large events like JavaOne, which included late nights after sessions and parties. He viewed this work as an important responsibility tied to his press pass and a way to share insights widely with developers at the event.Quote: “I mean, I’ve been writing books, of course, for as long as Java existed. I do a lot of blogging, I speak at conferences, and I guess that’s community work too. For many years, I would go to every JavaOne and I would snag myself a press pass and then I would blog about it. Every day. So it was actually, it was hard work.”
JCrete and Unconferences
Unconferences Foster Dynamic LearningTimestamp: 00:29:00–00:29:57Context: Cay praises the informal, interactive format of unconferences like JCrete in Greece. Events like these prioritize participant-driven discussions over the tight schedules and polished presentations of traditional corporate events. He explains that topics emerge from the attendees and their interests, with groups forming naturally around shared ideas, allowing for real-time adjustments like slowing down explanations or skipping known parts. These sessions are far more engaging than standard conference talks and better for deep learning.Quote: “The interesting part is what goes on in the hallway. And so the unconference kind of says, okay, let’s give us more hallway. Let’s make it so that there is more interaction… That interaction is much more effective because I feel when I’m there, I can stop the speaker and say, that was too fast for me. Or can you dig into this a little bit further? Or we can all tell the speaker, oh, we know this part. Just move on. So you have a much better way to learn.”
JCrete’s Mix of Experts and NovicesTimestamp: 00:30:40–00:31:09Context: Cay highlights how JCrete’s mix of experts and novices fosters innovation and learning, encouraging young programmers to participate despite feeling intimidated. He says that novices often bring fresh perspectives given their experience from emerging industries, while experts also gain insights into new applications. He urges employers to recognize the value of such networking opportunities.Quote: “What most of these unconferences purposefully try to do is get a mix of experts and novices. Because for me, it’s also super interesting to know how someone who is just getting started, how they use the technology. Also, sometimes the people who get started, they get started in more innovative industries than what we already know… So we want young people in these events.”
Lifelong Learning Strategies
Setting Aside Time for LearningTimestamp: 00:17:22–00:17:34Context: Cay advises developers to dedicate time to learning and make deliberate choices about what to study, which is especially important given the rapid pace of technological change that never seems to stop. He says that this has been a constant in the field for decades, and while it can feel overwhelming, it’s normalized through consistent habits, which is different from some students who may need more guidance to adopt these practices early.Quote: “You have to absolutely, you have to do two things, right? One is you have to set aside a certain amount of time every week, every month to learn. And secondly, you have to make choices what to learn and what not to learn.”
Task-Driven Learning for DevelopersTimestamp: 00:21:16–00:21:54Context: Cay shares his approach to learning new technologies by setting small, practical tasks, which he believes is an effective way for developers to acquire new skills. He gives examples like when he was starting with basic cloud deployments before advancing, noting that this method avoids the overwhelm of building full apps immediately and mirrors how people naturally learn through motivation and iteration via small tasks.Quote: “I think this task-driven learning is how people learn. So when I first had to learn like a cloud, AWS and that kind of stuff, you know, I said, okay, I just want to have something running in the cloud. And then I said, okay, now I want to do something with the database. And so I set myself small tasks that were not of the ‘build an app lift’ because I didn’t yet know what app I might want to build.”
Final Advice: Hands-On LearningTimestamp: 00:32:46–00:32:56Context: “In his closing remarks, Cay reiterates the importance of hands-on, task-driven learning as a lifelong strategy for developers. He encourages figuring out personal goals and learning incrementally to achieve them, repeating the process to stay current. He ties this back to his own experiences in updating books and adapting to new tech over 30 years.Quote: “No, really, my advice is to take the time to learn new stuff and do it by some hands-on process. Figure out what you want to do and then learn just enough to do that. Repeat and rinse.”
Interview Archive
Get full access to Jim Grisanzio at jimgrisanzio.substack.com/subscribe
View all episodes
By Jim GrisanzioDuke’s Corner Java Podcast: Cay Horstmann: Java Still Vibrant After 30 Years
Jim Grisanzio from Java Developer Relations talks with Cay Horstmann, a professor, author, and Java Champion. In April 2025 in Cologne, Germany at JCON Cay received the Java Community Lifetime Achievement recognition from Sharat Chander on the Oracle Java Developer Relations Team.
This conversation covers the evolution of Java, the constant polishing of the library, the upcoming Java 25 release, the six-month release cycle, improvements in the Java language to make the technology more beginner friendly, teaching methodologies, conferences vs unconferences, and also timeless task-driven learning methods for students and developers to keep their skills sharp. Also, Cay has been writing books about Java for decades and years ago he was instrumental in initially getting Java integrated into the curriculum for the computer science AP exam in the United States.
“One of the reasons why Java is still so vibrant 30 years in is that there is a constant stream of low-level innovation going on. It’s pretty amazing.”
Links on the web for this conversation: Apple | Bluesky | Libsyn | LinkedIn | LinkedIn | LinkedIn | LinkedIn | Flickr | Flickr | Flickr | WordPress | WordPress | X | X | X | X | YouTube | YouTube | YouTube. All of Duke’s Corner Java Podcasts can be found here. Here are more quotes from the conversation below:
Links: Apple | Bluesky | Libsyn | LinkedIn | LinkedIn | LinkedIn | LinkedIn | Flickr | Flickr | Flickr | WordPress | WordPress | X | X | X | X | YouTube | YouTube | YouTube
Java’s Vibrancy and Evolution
Java’s Continuous Low-Level InnovationTimestamp: 00:13:45–00:14:12Context: Cay discusses why Java remains vibrant after 30 years, emphasizing the impact of the Java six-month release cycle and the steady stream of incremental improvements. He contrasts this with how individual features might not seem groundbreaking alone in any given release, but cumulatively they drive significant progress. He also ties this process to the natural competition among programming languages, where Java’s consistent updates help it stay relevant in a fast-evolving field.Quote: “And I think one of the reasons that Java is so vibrant 30 years in is that it’s doing a really good job. I mean, if you think about it, every six months, there’s a new version that has some features that some are interested in for some people, some for others. And there is a constant stream of low-level innovation going on. Very few of these features seem like momentous on their own, but altogether, it is pretty amazing.”
Polished Java Library Through Continuous RefinementTimestamp: 00:07:05–00:07:33Context: Cay highlights how Java’s library has been refined over decades, making it more polished and user-friendly compared to other languages. He explains that this comes from ongoing attention to the API, where small complications are identified and simplified over time, and while each change might seem minor in isolation, the repeated process over 20 to 30 years results in a highly refined system that stands out for its logic and ease of use.Quote: “There is the evolution, but there’s also the constant polishing of the library. So the API gets attention. You say, this is just a little bit too complicated. And someone says, yeah, sure. And then some small simplification comes. It never looks [like] much of a deal once, but repeat that over 20, 30 years, and you have really a super polished library. You do not have that with other languages.”
Java 25 and Beginner-Friendliness
Simplifying Java for BeginnersTimestamp: 00:08:49–00:09:16Context: Cay explains how updates in Java 25 will reduce syntactic complexity for beginners by removing the need for a class in simple programs and improving I/O methods. He notes that while beginners have historically managed with templates, this change makes the language less intimidating from the start, and he appreciates its regularity compared to Python’s mix of top-level code and methods, which allows for a smoother introduction to programming concepts without unnecessary distractions.Quote: “Nevertheless, Java 25 now does make this a lot easier. You now no longer have to have a class for simple programs. You still do need to have a main method, which I think is actually fine because it’s more regular than Python. In Python, you have a slightly confusing mix of top-level code and then methods. And in Java, it’s just methods for simple programs.”
Visual Clarity in Java 25 for Educational ContentTimestamp: 00:09:16–00:09:49Context: Reflecting on rewriting his textbook, Cay notes how Java 25’s simplified syntax reduces visual clutter, benefiting students and textbook authors. He describes how textbooks often feature numerous small sample programs, unlike larger developer projects, and removing elements like public static void main makes the code less overwhelming visually, allowing developers to focus on core ideas rather than ceremonial syntax that can distract them while learning.Quote: “At first I thought, you know, big deal, but now I’ve rewritten the first three chapters of Core Java with this and I really, really like it. It just is visually less distracting when you write a textbook. There’s lots and lots of small sample programs… and public static void main, you know, if you even have one in a framework, you would never even have it. But in a textbook, yeah, it’s nice.”
Simplified I/O in Java 25Timestamp: 00:10:24–00:10:33Context: Cay discusses how Java 25 introduces simpler I/O methods, making it easier for beginners to learn and use. He says that this eliminates odd constructs like system.out, replacing them with straightforward static methods, which helps beginners master a few key concepts early on and progress smoothly for the first several weeks before transitioning to more advanced object-oriented features. Quote: “To read something now, you no longer need to use system.out, which was always kind of an odd beast. You just say io.printon. It’s a static method.”
Teaching and Learning Methodologies
Task-Driven Learning for Lifelong SkillsTimestamp: 00:19:42–00:20:10Context: Cay advocates for task-driven learning, where students engage with material through hands-on experimentation, which he believes is more effective than traditional lectures. He stresses that while learning the basics is necessary, the real value comes from applying them in practical ways, which encourages trial and error to build motivation and skills. This approach aligns with how professionals tinker and iterate in real-world work scenarios.Quote: “You really want the learner to engage with the material by trying things out, by kicking the tires, by failing and then succeeding. There are some times when you need some fundamentals, you can’t build without knowing some basics. So I’m not against teaching those as facts. But then you quickly want to motivate students by putting things to work.”
Teaching Students to Learn How to LearnTimestamp: 00:18:11–00:18:29Context: Reflecting on his teaching career, Cay emphasizes that teaching students how to learn is more valuable than pushing specific subject matter, which is especially important given the rapid evolution of technology. He shares how he shifted focus from content delivery to guiding students through vast information landscapes, helping them navigate changes like in Android programming where details quickly become obsolete.Quote: “I realized that subject matter really does not matter that much because it changes anyway. What really mattered to me is how students could learn to learn better, and how they could find their own way in that morass of materials out there.”
Interactive Learning in Small ClassesTimestamp: 00:18:39–00:18:58Context: Cay describes the shift from large lectures to small, interactive lab sessions where students collaboratively fix outdated code, promotes practical learning. He explains that by using last year’s notes as a starting point, students learn to adapt to shifts in technology, identifying principles for troubleshooting and using tools like AI or Stack Overflow to aid the process.Quote: “I really stopped lecturing. We had, like, a lab session every day where I said, here are the lecture notes from last year, none of this stuff works anymore, let’s fix it together. And in fact, none of this stuff did work anymore because this or that shifted. And so then what we really learned is how can you tease out the underlying principles that help you understand where even to look for the failures?”
Challenges of AI Tools in EducationTimestamp: 00:23:46–00:24:07Context: Cay addresses the challenge of students using AI tools like chatbots to complete homework, emphasizing the importance of learning through personal effort. He observes that while younger students seem to intuitively know when to avoid these tools, older ones struggle, and he compares it to self-practice in other skills, noting that exercises are meant for cognitive development, not just output.Quote: “What’s the value in that though, right? It’s not that people want to have another program that prints prime numbers. It’s that those exercises are there to make you think and to make you a better programmer. And so at that point, one needs to learn. And for students, this is hard. One needs to learn not to use the chatbot. I mean, it’s just like if you want to learn Italian or to play the piano, you need to do it yourself.”
Contributing to the Java Community
Instrumental Role in Java’s AP Curriculum IntegrationTimestamp: 00:04:39–00:05:02Context: Cay remembers his role in helping integrate Java into the U.S. Advanced Placement Computer Science Curriculum when he was advocating for a minimal subset of Java to focus on fundamentals. He mentions being invited to the committee due to his expertise in Java books and teaching, and how they successfully transitioned from C++ while resisting too many additions that could complicate the course unnecessarily.Quote: “And so we actually managed to do that. I was very proud that we did not just switch to Java, but we switched to the smallest possible subset of Java that we could. Because I felt that the programming language should not be the key of this course. It is a course in fundamentals of computer science.”
Blogging and Conference ContributionsTimestamp: 00:03:11–00:03:35Context: Cay reflects on his contributions to the Java ecosystem through writing books, blogging, and speaking at conferences, which he initially underestimated as community work. He describes the effort involved in daily blogging at large events like JavaOne, which included late nights after sessions and parties. He viewed this work as an important responsibility tied to his press pass and a way to share insights widely with developers at the event.Quote: “I mean, I’ve been writing books, of course, for as long as Java existed. I do a lot of blogging, I speak at conferences, and I guess that’s community work too. For many years, I would go to every JavaOne and I would snag myself a press pass and then I would blog about it. Every day. So it was actually, it was hard work.”
JCrete and Unconferences
Unconferences Foster Dynamic LearningTimestamp: 00:29:00–00:29:57Context: Cay praises the informal, interactive format of unconferences like JCrete in Greece. Events like these prioritize participant-driven discussions over the tight schedules and polished presentations of traditional corporate events. He explains that topics emerge from the attendees and their interests, with groups forming naturally around shared ideas, allowing for real-time adjustments like slowing down explanations or skipping known parts. These sessions are far more engaging than standard conference talks and better for deep learning.Quote: “The interesting part is what goes on in the hallway. And so the unconference kind of says, okay, let’s give us more hallway. Let’s make it so that there is more interaction… That interaction is much more effective because I feel when I’m there, I can stop the speaker and say, that was too fast for me. Or can you dig into this a little bit further? Or we can all tell the speaker, oh, we know this part. Just move on. So you have a much better way to learn.”
JCrete’s Mix of Experts and NovicesTimestamp: 00:30:40–00:31:09Context: Cay highlights how JCrete’s mix of experts and novices fosters innovation and learning, encouraging young programmers to participate despite feeling intimidated. He says that novices often bring fresh perspectives given their experience from emerging industries, while experts also gain insights into new applications. He urges employers to recognize the value of such networking opportunities.Quote: “What most of these unconferences purposefully try to do is get a mix of experts and novices. Because for me, it’s also super interesting to know how someone who is just getting started, how they use the technology. Also, sometimes the people who get started, they get started in more innovative industries than what we already know… So we want young people in these events.”
Lifelong Learning Strategies
Setting Aside Time for LearningTimestamp: 00:17:22–00:17:34Context: Cay advises developers to dedicate time to learning and make deliberate choices about what to study, which is especially important given the rapid pace of technological change that never seems to stop. He says that this has been a constant in the field for decades, and while it can feel overwhelming, it’s normalized through consistent habits, which is different from some students who may need more guidance to adopt these practices early.Quote: “You have to absolutely, you have to do two things, right? One is you have to set aside a certain amount of time every week, every month to learn. And secondly, you have to make choices what to learn and what not to learn.”
Task-Driven Learning for DevelopersTimestamp: 00:21:16–00:21:54Context: Cay shares his approach to learning new technologies by setting small, practical tasks, which he believes is an effective way for developers to acquire new skills. He gives examples like when he was starting with basic cloud deployments before advancing, noting that this method avoids the overwhelm of building full apps immediately and mirrors how people naturally learn through motivation and iteration via small tasks.Quote: “I think this task-driven learning is how people learn. So when I first had to learn like a cloud, AWS and that kind of stuff, you know, I said, okay, I just want to have something running in the cloud. And then I said, okay, now I want to do something with the database. And so I set myself small tasks that were not of the ‘build an app lift’ because I didn’t yet know what app I might want to build.”
Final Advice: Hands-On LearningTimestamp: 00:32:46–00:32:56Context: “In his closing remarks, Cay reiterates the importance of hands-on, task-driven learning as a lifelong strategy for developers. He encourages figuring out personal goals and learning incrementally to achieve them, repeating the process to stay current. He ties this back to his own experiences in updating books and adapting to new tech over 30 years.Quote: “No, really, my advice is to take the time to learn new stuff and do it by some hands-on process. Figure out what you want to do and then learn just enough to do that. Repeat and rinse.”
Interview Archive
Get full access to Jim Grisanzio at jimgrisanzio.substack.com/subscribe