Dr. Jack Saul, a psychologist and artist, joins us for a conversation about the concept of moral injury explored in his practice, and in his public arts project Moral Injuries of War, which undertakes a national public reckoning on United States war-making and war culture.

As a psychologist and family therapist, Dr. Saul created programs in New York City and abroad for populations that have endured disaster, war, torture, and political violence, as he documents in his book Collective Trauma, Collective Healing.

We explore what "moral injury" means to different populations, specifically war veterans and refugees, as well as how it is connected to grief, love and our sense of a shared humanity amidst unspeakable atrocity.