In this episode, Chip talks with Karen Swim of Solo PR Pro about the challenges faced by solos and small agency owners in the current chaotic environment. They discuss the impact of economic, political, and societal issues on public relations and communications, emphasizing the need for adaptability in business strategies.

They highlight the importance of diversifying communication tactics beyond traditional media relations, focusing on owned and internal communications, and the value of continuous business development. The conversation also covers managing anxiety among employees, clients, and agency owners themselves, and the importance of peer support and professional community engagement.

Karen Swim is many things but clients agree that she is genuine, hard working and cares deeply about their personal and professional success. Works with clients in a variety of industries including technology, healthcare and nonprofits. President of Solo PR Pro and co-host of That Solo Life podcast.

The following is a computer-generated transcript. Please listen to the audio to confirm accuracy.
CWC with Karen Swim

Chip Griffin: Hello and welcome to another episode of Chats with Chip. I’m your host Chip Griffin, the founder of SAGA, the Small Agency Growth Alliance, and I’m delighted to have with me one of my most frequent guests, a very smart individual who always has great insights for us, Karen Swim of Solo PR Pro. Welcome, Karen.

Karen Swim: Thank you, Chip. It’s always great to, to be with you and, I’m going to apologize to your audience because I do have the flu, but the flu could not keep me away from doing your podcast. That’s how much. I like you.

Chip Griffin: Well, I, I, I appreciate that very much and the, the feeling is mutual and, and, I’ll remember that, if, if I catch the flu the next time I’m on your show, I’ll power right through and not even hesitate.

So, but I, I think, you know, it, it is important to have the conversation we’re going to have today because we are both talking with a lot of, of solos and small agency owners who are concerned about the current environment. And there are all sorts of things to be worried about if you’re a business owner right now.

And, and it doesn’t even matter, you know, what your political views are, those kinds of things. There are a lot of economic issues. There are the political issues that, that certainly are getting a lot of headlines right now. There are societal issues. There’s just, there’s all sorts of stuff going on.

Karen Swim: Yeah.

Chip Griffin: And so it is really a chaotic environment to be running your business in, and a lot of this is having a direct impact on public relations, communications, marketing, the specialties that we work with on a day to day basis. So I think it’ll be interesting to have a conversation about how do you cope with this chaos in the moment?

How do you, if not thrive as a business, at least survive as a business as you’re navigating your way through it? So, I’ll throw the floor open to you for thoughts that you may have.

Karen Swim: Yeah, it’s a really difficult time. And as you noted, especially for those in the communication professions, because so many of the pillars that are integral to the work that we do, we’re seeing such a chaotic landscape.

Social media platforms, there’s so much chaos. And there’s a lot of exiting from those platforms and people, you know, pushing back against them. And so if people are spreading out on more social media channels and not really being engaged anywhere, how do you use that tool now in 2025 to, to reach your, your audience, your publics?

We’re also seeing the media landscape just go through an incredible shifting. We’re seeing, you know, a lot of layoffs. We’re seeing local news go away. We’re seeing, you know, the quality of journalism change. And, you know, we are also seeing and, you know, history bears this out. This is where independent journalism rises. And they fight against what’s happening with, you know, integrity and with a mission to report the truth.

But those publications are all over the place. So how do communicators even find them? How do you find those newsletters by independent journalists? How do you pitch them? How do you use these tools with your clients? It’s, it’s a really uncertain time.

Chip Griffin: Yeah, I, I think that’s a, that’s a great point. That, that even before we get to these larger environmental issues that are impacting business, we get to the issue of the places where we typically have gone to help clients communicate are, are disappearing and or changing substantially.

And so we need to learn to adapt to that as a business, right? We can’t, we can’t simply lament the fact that that there is less traditional media and so it’s harder to get stories placed. We need to come up with a solution for our clients because they don’t want to hear us say well, you know there’s just there’s so many fewer places.

It’s so hard. They’ve got fewer reporters. They don’t have time for pitches. So, you know, yeah, I know we didn’t produce anything the last three months, but you know, that’s just that’s just the way it is. You need to come up with something that you can explain to the client, this is what we’re doing and this is how it’s having a result.

So fundamentally, that means a lot of the folks that we work with who are traditional media relations folks, they need to be rethinking that pure media relations approach and thinking more about Gini Dietrich’s PESO model, for example, and how do we Integrate additional types of communication, but even then, to your point, the social media platforms are changing. And a lot of people originally started to migrate from one platform to another.

That was maybe more hospitable to their own personal views of the world. But then people just started throwing their hands up and say, well, I’m not going anywhere. So then how do you find people? How do you, you need to find your audience, your client’s audience, wherever they are.

Karen Swim: Yeah, and it’s funny because we have, how many years have we been saying, stop pushing the lever of media relationships, as your only tool in the toolbox.

We’ve been saying this forever. Public relations is so much more, media relations is a tactic. It is not a strategy. And so I think now is the time that communicators have to really be strategic. And they have to focus on quality, not quantity, and they have to look at other tactics that they can utilize to help clients achieve what’s most important to them.

That’s still possible. And so, you know, my advice is don’t get caught up in the distractions because it’s all noise. These things are happening. It’s not going to change, but what can you do? You have to be solution oriented. You’ve got to become more business minded. What’s really important to your client and how can you achieve those objectives?

Chip Griffin: Yeah, I mean, it’s you can’t be an implementer who’s focused just on performing the tactics that you’ve always done. You need to be in a position where you’re saying to yourself Okay. You know, this is, this is the business goal my client is trying to achieve. How can I use all of the expertise, all of the knowledge that I have to help them achieve them?

And, and it’s something you should have been doing anyway, right? Even before these things change, right? You need to understand your clients and we always, you know, we’ll, we’ll talk about when you’re pitching new business, ask questions instead of just coming in there and talking about all the great things that you do. But it’s even more important now.

And so I guess, you know, if you are someone who is historically been a media relations specialist, either as an individual or an agency, how do you, realistically, how do you expand beyond that? Because that’s been your bread and butter. That’s what you’re, you know, and are comfortable with.

Karen Swim: Absolutely. But there’s, excuse me, so many other things that we can do.

There is, you know, I think people forget about internal communications. They forget about email marketing. Excuse me, that’s, that’s something that you own and you can control. Focus on getting people into your internal systems, into your owned channels.

Chip Griffin: Right. Yeah. I mean, if you’re able to start focusing on those things that, that you control, I think, I think owned and internal are two great places to get started because, I mean, owned is, I’m a huge fan of owned anyway, because with all of these changes taking place, having a place that you can call your own, that, that you can house your client’s content and it’s going to be there, you know, for posterity, for the future.

 That’s helpful, but it’s also something that you control so much that, particularly in the early stages of a relationship where it’s hard to get, even if you’re really good at media relations and you’ve got great connections and all that, it’s hard. And, and you can get more traction sooner by producing owned content.

So I think that’s a great place to get started.

Karen Swim: And it doesn’t mean that media relations is dead. It means that you’ve got to focus on qualitative coverage, where can you achieve coverage that really aligns and it’s really going to reach your client’s audience, and more importantly, really move the needle in a way that’s meaningful.

Chip Griffin: So you know, obviously, you know, we focused so far on on some of the the structural changes and and and changing what you do for clients, but we can’t ignore the fact that this is just a, a tough environment overall. There, you know, even before the start of 2025, there were economic questions and, and we saw over the last 18 months or so that the clients became slower to respond to proposals, slower to spend money, more risk averse.

And so I, in the past, we’ve talked about, you know, the importance of de risking engagements with clients and that sort of thing. But you know, how do you, how do you approach, let’s start with the economic side of it. And then, then we’ll get into the political and societal stuff because I think we can’t overlook that, but, but how do you approach the economic environment, as a solo or an agency to, to try to do the best you can?

Karen Swim: I think it’s really tough, but there are industries that are growing. So, I think take a look at what’s growing, what’s in demand, and think about serving those industries because your skills are transferable. So many times we lock ourselves into this box without realizing that we really can branch out.

And it may take some work. It may take teaming up with someone who is in that industry and doing it as a collaborative project or a collaborative, you know, proposal. Or, you know, working together with somebody that has expertise in that space. But you’ve got to be scrappy in this environment because not every industry is dead.

There are so many industries that are really doing well. There are companies that have cash. They’re not laying off. They have healthy environments, and so you’ve just got to look. And I think the message is get out of your comfort zone. Don’t just sit there and go, Oh, woe is me. Like, nobody is, nobody is, you know, hiring outside contractors, and nobody’s spending money, and it’s so hard, and all the – Nope.

Then you gotta sit down and do the research and dig in and figure out, okay, where are the fish at? That’s where I’m gonna cast my line.

Chip Griffin: Yeah, and I think, I think the other thing to consider is, you know, don’t necessarily throw out your existing specialty. You know, it’s really easy to get enamored with whatever the shiny new object is, whether that’s a service or an industry or whatever, and chase that because, you know, you’re just, you need the cash.

But I think even, even if you serve an industry that is struggling right now, there’s still opportunity there. You may need to adapt what services you’re pitching or who you’re pitching to. But as a solo or a small player, you have a lot more flexibility to do this. The people who have to abandon particular industries are the big players who need huge contracts in order to survive and thrive.

You don’t need that. So before you give up on whatever specialty you may have now, ask yourself if there’s a way you can adapt to the current reality.

Karen Swim: Yeah, they’ve got problems that need to be solved. So, you know, sit down and figure out, like, what’s their struggle right now, and how can public relations help them to hit their goals?

How can, what can I do, what solutions do I offer that really matter to them? You know, and I also think, you know, don’t lower your prices, but consider changing the way that you engage. So, maybe it’s not a monthly retainer. Maybe it’s a six month retainer. Maybe it’s a project. Maybe you’re doing more project work.

You know, again, get scrappy, start to think. Well, would people be more amenable to shorter engagements because they are feeling uncertain and don’t want to be locked in? And that doesn’t require you to lower your prices or take less or devalue your services. It’s just a different way of looking at the model.

Chip Griffin: And that’s a great warning. Do not lower your prices or cut your margins in order to, to win business because Too often I see that as the solution. And so someone will say, Well, I’ll just come in cheaper and I’ll be able to charge more later when things get better. Or I’ll take a loss on this early project, but then, you know, we’ll do follow on work and that’s where I’ll make it up.

You won’t. Once you are the cheap option, or cheaper option for somebody, you are never able to recover that, because that’s what they’ve come to expect to pay you.

Karen Swim: Yeah.

Chip Griffin: And so you need to, to hold firm on that, but you do, I would encourage you to look at all of your other non negotiables and ask, are they still non negotiable?

Because if you have a requirement that I’ll only do this size minimum engagement or this, this amount of time, only annual contracts, if those are things that are truly non negotiable to you, fine. Understand that that increases the risk and so maybe harder to sell in the current environment. If you’re able to back down on some of those while still doing profitable work that makes sense.

That might be something to consider.

Karen Swim: Yeah, I, I also think that we have to amp up business development. You know, we get lazy. You’ve got a roster of clients and you do the work and you know, you do business development when you need to, which has always been a bad strategy. You should be doing business development consistently, no matter how many clients you have.

Full stop. Because you’ve got to have a pipeline. And when you have a pipeline, that means some people are going to be at, you know, the point where they’re ready to pull the trigger. I think what’s happening now is we’re seeing a lot of people do business development and they’re just at top of funnel.

Well, all those people are not going to go through the funnel immediately. So it may take time, which is if you do business development all the time and continue to manage and nurture those relationships, then you’re going to move people through the pipeline. So get smart about sales. And if you feel like you know, I don’t really know much about this.

There’s so many ways that you can learn more about how to sell.

Chip Griffin: And, and I would encourage you, don’t even think about it as selling. Just think about it as having meaningful conversations with as many people as possible. It’s amazing how many good things will happen if you’re just having meaningful conversations with people.

Who either can hire you or can refer business to you. And so if you’re doing that consistently, and I always say the, the most, and I’ve learned this lesson the hard way over the years. The most important time to be doing that is when you are the busiest. Yeah. So if you find yourself overwhelmed with client work, that should be a ringing alarm bell that you need to focus on business development and networking and having these conversations because otherwise at some point, even when things are going great.

Inevitably, a client just leaves for no good reason. They have a staffing change, something specific happens to that organization, they turn out to be the next Enron or something. You know, these are all things that can happen even in good times. So you need to be focused on this.

Karen Swim: I agree. I mean, and let’s look at what’s happened in the CMOs, which is typically our client contacts.

They are not here for the long term. CMOs are, are there and they’re gone. And a lot of companies are turning to fractional CMOs and it is just like a rolling roster of different people. So we all know that if your contact changes, sometimes the new CMO comes in with alliances with another agency. So you don’t want to be at anyone else’s mercy for your business.

Chip Griffin: No, but you should be building your own relationships with people who might be going on to their next opportunity. So, I was talking with a client recently who has, there are changes taking place with one of their big clients. I said, well, make sure you find out where all of those people go, because those are all opportunities.

Yes, there’s a risk to your existing business because, you know, anytime there’s change, it threatens your contract, but there’s also opportunity because all those people go somewhere else. And if you’ve got good relationships with them, you might be able to get your tentacles in somewhere new.

Karen Swim: Yeah. I would also encourage people to network with the people that can refer you business or that are your clients.

You know, too often we’ll go to all the, you know, conferences for public relations and marketing, but we don’t go to industry things. We miss that. Why wouldn’t you go and talk directly to your audience? And as you’ve said, you know, we’ve all had that experience where we’ve met someone who was so excited about their work.

And they started a conversation with us, which made us interested. Like you said, it’s not selling. You’re not forcing something on people. You’re talking about the work that you do. Hopefully it’s work that you love and you’re good at. Why wouldn’t you want to share that? Why would you want to keep that a secret?

Chip Griffin: And I think, frankly, if you think of agency business development as sales, you’re making a mistake anyway. Because It is not, and, and I always discourage folks from picking up sales books, right? You know, how, how to do effective sales. Because the reality is you’re not really selling. You’re trying to build a meaningful relationship with someone that you can genuinely help. That there’s a good match for.

Sales is about saying, I’ve got a widget. I need to sell this widget. I need to sell this widget as quickly as I can at as high a price as possible. If that’s what you’re doing, you’re going to destroy the reputation of your agency. You’re going to be miserable in the process. So don’t do that. Just focus on getting people to say yes at the right time for the right thing for both of you.

Karen Swim: Agree. I completely agree.

Chip Griffin: Let’s take just a moment to talk about the elephant in the room, which is political and societal chaos that is enveloping us. And, you know, there are a lot of agencies that are, I mean, I talk to agency owners who have employees who have high anxiety. The owners have anxiety, but now you’ve got employees as well who have anxiety and you’re trying to figure out how to, how to address that.

You’re dealing with clients who are uncertain or maybe they’re making big changes. And obviously, in the news, as we record this, there’s been a lot of discussion around DEI programs. And there are a lot of agencies that historically have done a lot of work in the DEI space. And I’ve had some of them, our clients, and they come to me and they say, what, what should we do?

You know, is this, is this just gone and, and, and now I need to be focusing on something else? And I’ll, I’ll be interested in your take, but, but my encouragement is if that’s your specialty and your passion, stay with it. Because there are still organizations who are going to want to be focused on DEI.

What you’re doing now is you’re getting rid of the tick boxers. You’re getting rid of the people who are doing it for performative reasons, to keep stockholders happier, to get, you know, a nice press release or something like that. And that impacts, frankly, more of the big players. If I’m one of the big PR agencies, I’m worried about a DEI practice that I have. Because that’s just, that’s just layered onto something existing.

But if I’m a small agency and this is core to my work, I think there’s still a lot of opportunity there. And I, and I’m singling out DEI just because it’s gotten so much attention, but there are a lot of other things like there are industries that are falling out of favor in Washington right now, but I still think there’s huge opportunity if you’re able to harness it and use your expertise in the right way.

Karen Swim: Yeah, I mean, I never, ever will count passion out. If it’s the work that you do, as you’ve said, we’re now just weeding out the people who really didn’t have a commitment to those policies. The companies that truly are committed still exist and there’s still opportunity. I also think that there’s such a great opportunity to change the conversation.

Right now it’s about that label and that label being misused and weaponized. Part of that might be on communicators. We need to look at ourselves. Did we over index on certain things? Were we as clear as we could be on what DEI programs really meant? Did we really talk about the social impact and how that impacts all of society?

So I think it’s a great time to look at our own messaging and think of new ways that you could communicate and communicate with clarity and how you can be more inclusive in your, your communications. But I don’t think it’s dead at all. It’s important work. It always has been. I mean, that would be like saying, okay, the United States is going towards, you know, I don’t know what it’s going towards, but.

You know, activists are dead. And they’re not, you know, there are still people that are very passionate about doing the work. And if you’re one of those people keep doing the work because it’s still needed and still valued.

Chip Griffin: And I mean, as business owners, you know, we’re also human. And so, you know, and, and just about every business owner I know has political and social views of their own. There is, you know, we talked about employees having stress, but the owners have stress too. How do you manage that as a business owner so that you can continue to be productive in your day to day for your business, for your clients, even if maybe you are, either celebrating or discomfited by the news that’s around you?

Karen Swim: Chocolate, therapy,

crying breaks. I mean, just have yourself a little cry. I mean, I’m kidding, but I’m not because we’ve all been there. You know, everything is being shaken to its core and we don’t really understand. You know, I have been impacted by tariffs with people in other countries worried about the prices of US expenditures.

And so cutting back. That’s really hard when a lot of us went global to protect against the vagaries of the U. S. economy. But again, I think this is where you have to tune out the noise. And even if that means ignoring, you know, all of the information that’s being thrown at you and focus in on your business and on your well being.

Protect yourself, protect your mind and realize that as a business owner, you’ve got to be good and you cannot allow yourself to get caught up. Because, make no mistake about it, there’s a strategy to chaos. It, it may seem like there’s no strategy. There is a strategy. And it will make you take your eye off the ball.

Let’s not do that. Let’s stay focused on what’s really important and not get caught up in all of this stuff. Because it’s gonna happen anyway. Whatever’s going on, it’s happening. So how do you deal with it?

Chip Griffin: Yeah. And look, I, I think that that’s important no matter what period of time we’re in. And this is similar advice that I would have given 25 years ago after 9/11 or during the financial crisis in 08-09 or five years ago with COVID.

You need to be able to compartmentalize to a significant degree your, everything that’s going on in the world from your business. And within the business, control what you can control. If you can’t control it, you should be aware of it. I mean, I’m not encouraging you to bury your head in the sand and don’t look at news coverage for the next decade, right?

You need to be aware because there are impacts on your business. But focus on the aspects of it that you can control. Then outside of the business, you know, after you’ve completed your work week. If you want to get wrapped up in this sort of thing, either because you’re a political junkie like me, and so you’re just, there’s sort of a perverse interest in just seeing what happens. Or because you’re an activist and you want to make a difference, or you just like to doom scroll, or whatever it is, that’s fine, but that needs to be a separate compartment, and can’t take away from running of the business, because otherwise your business will suffer big time.

Karen Swim: It really will, and, and I’m seeing people spin out. And get burned out and depressed and it’s natural. I mean, there’s a lot going on. There’s a lot coming fast and furious. And to mention, we have really had some real life tragedies this year. You know, the wildfires, the floods, the school shootings, plane crashes.

So there’s, there’s enough in the world to cause anxiety. And I think we have to, you know, as you said, acknowledge those things, feel those things. Put your hand in the places where you feel like, you know, you, you can make an impact, you can support, you can help, but you have to put on your business owner hat and you have to steer the ship and steer your people.

And I think, you know, one of the things that helps me is having mentors, coaches, and a community that is a safe place to go with those natural feelings and have people to sort of level set you like, okay. You know, and, and all of us on any given day can be the one who helps level set someone else. Because you may be having a great day where you’re like, okay.

I’m rising above it and here’s what I’m doing and here’s a strategy that worked on a day that someone else needs to hear that. So don’t go it alone. This is not the time to be the lone wolf. And invest in yourself, you know, invest in development. What skills could you be adding that are going to future proof your business? Invest in business coaches and workshops. Turn to people that are experts that can help you to navigate through these times.

I mean, that’s, that’s an investment that has a huge ROI. So, again, you’re not by yourself and it may seem like, Uh, should I really be investing in things when the economy is so bad? Yes, just like we tell companies when times are hard, don’t cut marketing. Same thing.

Chip Griffin: Yeah, and I think, I really want to single out the engaging with your peers because I think that there is so much value there, but I see far too often agency owners and solos who are afraid to do that.

Because they don’t want to be vulnerable with, with those people. They view them as competitors in, in ways that frankly, I think is unhealthy because there’s plenty of business to go around. And, and the reality is that most of the people we think of as competitors don’t think of us as competitors. So, take a deep breath and, and, you know, try to find out how you can engage with them. Whether that’s informally, just because you pick up the phone or send an email and say, Hey, let’s just, let’s have coffee, let’s, let’s have a Zoom conversation, whatever, let’s catch up. Whether it’s joining a more formal community like Solo PR Pro, all of these things are really helpful to you.

And, and you want to take advantage of that because there’s, there’s a, I mean, there’s a lot that you can take from just everybody saying, yeah, we’re in the same boat. I mean, even, even if they don’t have the answer for you or the advice for you, just knowing that there are other people going through the same thing is therapeutic.

Karen Swim: That affinity is so important too, because friends and family can empathize. But unless they’re in this line of work, they don’t truly get it the way that your peers do. So why wouldn’t you utilize that resource? There’s something really powerful about sharing with people who get it, who understand the job, who understand the challenges, and can be supportive and help navigate.

I mean, even brainstorming. You know, I’ve seen this happen in Solo where people are like, okay, I, I need some ideas and you know, that groupthink produces things and inspires them, like, wow, I never thought of that. Because you can be staring at a problem and not see the solution right in front of you. So, yeah, tap into community.

Chip Griffin: And, and to that point, I will, I will harp on something that I like to rant about, which is, if someone asks to pick your brain, say yes. Yeah. I mean, You know, I see too much of this. Oh no, you know, I’m, I don’t have the time for that, or oh no, you have to pay me for my time. Look, you can’t let people take advantage of you.

And if they call up and ask to pick your brain every, every week or every month, okay, no, that’s a problem. But if someone calls up every two or three years and says, can I pick your brain, please try to say yes, because you’ll get just as much out of that as they will. And so it’s a great way to commiserate with people, to do some market research, to hear what’s going on, just take advantage of those opportunities because you know, you can get so much value out of it.

Karen Swim: Oh my gosh. I completely agree. And the person that’s asking you questions can reenergize you. You know, I had a bunch of those kinds of meetings this week in spite of being sick. That just really like lit me up and I learned things from each person and I got excited and it inspired me to think of something that I didn’t think of before.

So I agree with you. We’ve got to move away from that mindset. I think, you know, that kind of popped up with hustle culture, like… We’re not there. Let’s move past that.

Chip Griffin: Yeah, and, I mean, there’s all sorts of problems with true hustle culture, but I think that, yeah, I’m not going to go on that rant today, because I, I, we would go another half hour if I go down that rabbit hole, so.

But just

be helpful to your, your fellow communicators, whether they’re in house or solo or agency or whatever. And there will be value to come back to you. Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but eventually. And that’s how you grow your business. So, well, Karen, I really appreciate you powering through and taking the time to share your insights.

If, if someone has been living under a rock and has not heard you here or anywhere else. Where can they go to find out more about you and Solo PR Pro?

Karen Swim: Go to soloprpro.com and you’ll find us. And you can look for me everywhere. Karen Swim and ask me questions. Yes, you can pick my brain. Yes, you can send me a calendar link.

Yes, I’ll meet with you. I love talking to people. So I’m on LinkedIn, I’m on Blue Sky, I am on, still on Facebook, Instagram. You know, you can find me. Reach out.

Chip Griffin: And I can attest to the fact that Karen is always very helpful and finds any way that she can be useful. So

I appreciate the time that you spent today and all that you’ve done with me and for me over the years.

So with that, that will draw to an end this episode of Chats with Chip. I’m your host, Chip Griffin, and I look forward to having you back here again very soon. Thanks Karen.

Karen Swim: Thank you.