Children of the Forum is a special series on Confronting the Line, hosted by Lindsey Hartzel, exploring the lasting impact of Large Group Awareness Trainings on young people and those shaped by high-control environments before they had the language to name what was happening to them. This is episode three — and the series continues for as long as there are stories worth telling.

Ann Betz came to est through The Hunger Project in the early 1980s, drawn in by a mission to end world hunger through collective will. She became so absorbed in the work that she dropped out of college to be closer to the New York center — a decision that led to others she would only come to fully understand years later. In this conversation with Lindsey, Ann brings both the lived experience and the researcher's lens. As a neuroscience educator and certified coach, she explores what high-control environments actually do to the brain, and why the damage is especially significant for young people whose identities and nervous systems are still forming.

Ann explains how chronic stress and unresolved trauma can narrow perception, reinforce survival patterns and make people more susceptible to shame, rigidity and manipulation — even when they are bright, motivated and genuinely seeking growth.

She speaks honestly about narcissistic dynamics in personal development spaces, the psychological cost of environments that treat suffering as personal failure, and why so many capable people can spend years inside these spaces still feeling deeply disconnected from themselves. And she offers something rare: a clear-eyed account of what real healing actually looks like — not performing transformation, but slowly, patiently rebuilding trust with your own mind, body and instincts.

If you have ever found yourself in a group, program or relationship that left you more confused than when you started, this conversation offers both understanding and a way forward.

Resources: https://isthisacultbook.com/confronting-the-line-pod/

Confronting the Line is dedicated to the safe and ethical practice of personal and professional development. And the fallout of Host Anne Peterson's book Is This A Cult? https://isthisacultbook.com/confronting-the-line-pod/

Support the show and access early episodes:  https://www.patreon.com/cw/BeyondtheLinesStudio

Transparency and funding information: https://isthisacultbook.com/confronting-the-line-pod/

Cara Cordone thought she'd found her people. Then she tried to fix what was broken — and discovered the damage was by design.

In Part 1 of this two-part conversation, Anne sits down with Cara Cordone — coach, advocate, and host of Fool's Gold: Discernment in the Age of Grift — to trace how a search for healing and connection led Cara deep inside ISTA (the International School of Temple Arts), and what she uncovered when she started asking hard questions.

This is a conversation about what it really means to be transformed — and what happens when the high wears off.

In this episode you'll hear:

• How a COVID-era retreat became a years-long journey into a high-control organisation

• What emotional release techniques actually do to the nervous system — and why the research doesn't support them

• Why "you're responsible for your experience" can be one of the most dangerous ideas in personal development

• The moment Cara encountered DARVO — and recognised it had already happened to her

• How a Facebook group meant to build bridges revealed a decade of unaddressed harm

• What ISTA, Landmark, and high-control groups share — and why internal reform almost never works

• The one question that cuts through any narrative: Who benefits?

Cara brings honesty, hard-won insight, and genuine generosity of spirit to one of the most layered conversations we've had on this show. This is not a takedown. It's a reckoning.

WHO THIS EPISODE IS FOR If you've ever left a programme, group, or community feeling like you were the problem — this conversation is for you. It's also essential listening for coaches, therapists, HR professionals, and anyone working with people navigating recovery from high-control environments.

RESOURCES & LINKS

Check out Cara Cordone's Podcast — Fool's Gold: Discernment in the Age of Grift

Read Anne's Book — Is This A Cult? Confronting the Line Between Exploitation and Transformation → https://isthisacultbook.com/

If you or someone you know is navigating recovery after a high-control group, relationship or organisation: Healthy Healing and Recovery Group with Rachel Bernstein → https://ilumn8.life/op/lgat-recovery-group/

Join us Beyond the Line If this conversation resonated, you're invited to Beyond the Line — our Patreon community for listeners who want to go deeper. Members receive early access to episodes, bonus reflections, and thoughtful discussions supporting ethical inquiry, survivor-centred learning, and safer pathways forward. Your membership directly supports this work and helps keep resources accessible to those who need them most. → https://www.patreon.com/cw/BeyondtheLinesStudio (please verify this is your live public URL)

💛 FUNDING & TRANSPARENCY Read about how Confronting the Line is funded and our commitment to transparency: → https://isthisacultbook.com/confronting-the-line-pod/

Your support helps us create thoughtful content, host conversations like this one, and offer accessible learning and support resources — including facilitated healing groups — for people leaving high-demand or coercive environments, regardless of their ability to pay.

🔍 FIND THIS EPISODE IF YOU'RE SEARCHING FOR: ISTA recovery | International School of Temple Arts | high-control group experiences | large group awareness training | LGAT | Landmark Forum | cult recovery | coercive control in wellness | spiritual abuse | emotional manipulation in personal development | DARVO explained | consent and trauma | self-help industry harm | safe communities | Cara Cordone | Fool's Gold podcast | Confronting the Line | CTL podcast | Anne Peterson coach

📋 MODERATION NOTE Healthy debate and discussion on the topics covered here is always welcome. Personal attacks on individuals, places or organisations will be removed. This is a space for thoughtful, survivor-centred conversation.

What happens when the very tools meant to help us grow are turned against us?

In this episode, host Anne sits down with Kellie Rhea — an Australian entrepreneur, former animal behaviorist, and horsemanship expert — who spent nearly two decades inside a personal development organization that slowly crossed the line from helpful to harmful.

Kellie's story is remarkable: a self-made woman who built a 160-acre ranch, 95 horses, and a thriving multi-faceted business — driven by a genuine desire to understand behavior, both animal and human. That curiosity led her to seek out tools for growth. What she found instead was a system built on undue influence, manipulation, and control.

Together, Anne and Kellie explore the slow, quiet nature of this kind of harm — why it's so hard to see from the inside, why "just leaving" isn't as simple as it sounds, and why healing doesn't happen overnight. They also talk honestly about what recovery actually looks like, including the specialist support, the nervous system work, and the community that makes the difference.

This conversation is for anyone who has ever felt pulled toward a teacher, a program, or a community that promised transformation — and wondered later whether it really delivered. You don't need to have been in a cult to find something familiar here.

In this episode:

• How the desire for quick healing can make us vulnerable
• The difference between physically leaving and mentally leaving
• Why professional development often has healthier guardrails than personal development
• What it means to dismantle beliefs that were never really yours

Confronting the Line is dedicated to exploring the personal and professional development industry with honesty, care, and curiosity — because knowing the difference between helpful and harmful just might change your life.

RESOURCES & LINKS:

You can find Kellie on her INSTAGRAM @iamkellierhea

Read Anne’s Book Is This A Cult: Confronting the Line Between Exploitation and Transformation and find other pods and resources → https://isthisacultbook.com/

If you or someone you know is wrestling with recovery after being involved in a high-control group, relationship or any organization, check out the Healthy Healing and Recovery Group w/ Rachel Bernstein https://ilumn8.life/op/lgat-recovery-group/

Join us Beyond the Line

If this conversation resonated, you’re invited to Beyond the Line—our new Patreon community for listeners who want to go deeper.

Members receive early access to episodes, bonus reflections, and thoughtful discussions that support ethical inquiry, survivor-centered learning, and safer pathways forward. Your membership directly supports this work and helps us keep resources accessible to those who need them most. https://www.patreon.com/cw/BeyondtheLinesStudio

FUNDING

Read about how Confronting the Line is funded & our commitment to transparency: https://isthisacultbook.com/confronting-the-line-pod/

Your support helps us create thoughtful content, host conversations like this one, and offer accessible learning and support resources—including facilitated healing groups—for people leaving high-demand or coercive environments, regardless of their ability to pay.

MODERATION NOTE:

While healthy debate and discussion regarding the topics being discussed is encouraged, personal (ad hominem) attacks on people, places or things will be deleted.

If you've ever thought "I would never fall for that" — this conversation is for you.

Anne sits down with author and researcher Jon Caven-Atack (If Scientology Ruled the World, Opening Our Minds) for a candid, wide-ranging conversation about how smart, well-meaning people end up in high-control groups — and why believing you're immune is actually your biggest vulnerability.

Jon spent years inside Scientology before becoming one of the world's foremost experts on undue influence and manipulation. Together, he and Anne trace the surprising historical roots of the modern self-help and human potential movement, explore what makes a personal growth program genuinely empowering versus a well-disguised trap, and get real about why our laws, our culture, and our own psychology leave us more exposed than most of us realize.

In this episode:

• The telltale signs that a group or program may be crossing a line
• Why peak experiences feel like transformation — and how that gets exploited
• The difference between healthy belonging and dangerous groupthink
• What "coercive control" actually means (and why the term itself is misleading)
• Jon's definition of a destructive cult — and why it applies in more places than you'd expect

Plus — Jon is joining Anne as a featured speaker at the upcoming Seek Safely Summit, where they'll be developing accessible education to help everyday people understand and recognize manipulation in real time.

https://ilumn8.life/op/the-seek-safely-summit-2/

Whether you're a survivor, a curious mind, or someone who works in personal development — this one's worth your full attention.🔔 Subscribe so you don't miss upcoming episodes 👇 Drop your questions and reflections in the comments

RESOURCES & LINKS: 

Learn more about the Seek Safely Summit https://ilumn8.life/op/the-seek-safely-summit-2/ 

Jon Caven-Atack's books: 

If Scientology Ruled the World - https://a.co/d/0ipOAuVa 

Opening Our Minds - https://a.co/d/04qRbJLD Check out Jon’s show https://www.youtube.com/@jonatackfamilyfriends6176

Read Anne’s Book Is This A Cult: Confronting the Line Between Exploitation and Transformation and find other pods and resources →  https://isthisacultbook.com/ 

If you or someone you know is wrestling with recovery after being involved in a high-control group, relationship or any organization, check out the Healthy Healing and Recovery Group w/ Rachel Bernstein  https://ilumn8.life/op/lgat-recovery-group/ 

Join us Beyond the LineIf this conversation resonated, you’re invited to Beyond the Line—our new Patreon community for listeners who want to go deeper. 

Members receive early access to episodes, bonus reflections, and thoughtful discussions that support ethical inquiry, survivor-centered learning, and safer pathways forward. Your membership directly supports this work and helps us keep resources accessible to those who need them most.  https://www.patreon.com/cw/BeyondtheLinesStudio 

FUNDING

Read about how Confronting the Line is funded & our commitment to transparency: https://isthisacultbook.com/confronting-the-line-pod/ 

Your support helps us create thoughtful content, host conversations like this one, and offer accessible learning and support resources—including facilitated healing groups—for people leaving high-demand or coercive environments, regardless of their ability to pay.

MODERATION NOTE: 

While healthy debate and discussion regarding the topics being discussed is encouraged, personal (ad hominem) attacks on people, places or things will be deleted. 

Brandon began Landmark programs at just 13 years old and quickly became a success story within the organization. But the deeper he went, the more he began to see things that didn’t line up with the promises of personal and global transformation. And when he started asking questions and raising concerns, Brandon says the response wasn’t reflection or change - it was gaslighting. He was told the problem was with him. Over and over again.

In this episode of Children of the Forum, Lindsey speaks with Brandon about his journey through Landmark - what began as a seemingly empowering personal development experience eventually became something much more complicated.

Brandon shares what it was like to grow up in and around Landmark, the pressure he says he felt to recruit friends, their parents, and even teachers, and the culture inside the organization once he began working for them.

This conversation explores identity formation, manipulation, accountability, and the power of trusting your instincts - even when a system insists you’re the one who’s wrong.

If you’ve ever questioned an organization that told you the problem was you, this conversation will resonate.

Content Warning: This episode contains discussion of sexual abuse of a child and high-control group dynamics. Listener discretion is advised.

RESOURCES & LINKS: 

Get to know Lindsey and her story on the episode we did with her recently E58 Growing Up in Landmark: Introducing Lindsey Hartzel

Join us Beyond the LineIf this conversation resonated, you’re invited to Beyond the Line—our new Patreon community for listeners who want to go deeper. 

Members receive early access to episodes, bonus reflections, and thoughtful discussions that support ethical inquiry, survivor-centered learning, and safer pathways forward. Your membership directly supports this work and helps us keep resources accessible to those who need them most.  https://www.patreon.com/cw/BeyondtheLinesStudio 

FUNDING

Read about how Confronting the Line is funded & our commitment to transparency: https://isthisacultbook.com/confronting-the-line-pod/ 

Your support helps us create thoughtful content, host conversations like this one, and offer accessible learning and support resources—including facilitated healing groups—for people leaving high-demand or coercive environments, regardless of their ability to pay.

If this episode resonated, please subscribe, consider becoming a YouTube Community Member, and share or comment to help others find the conversation.

MODERATION NOTE: 

While healthy debate and discussion regarding the topics being discussed is encouraged, personal (ad hominem) attacks on people, places or things will be deleted.

What Makes Coaching Truly Safe — and When It Crosses the Line

Not all coaching is created equal — and knowing the difference could protect you from real harm.

In this episode, Anne sits down with Ann Betz, CPCC, PCC, MNTC — neuroscience researcher, master coach trainer, and co-founder of BEabove Leadership — to pull back the curtain on the world of personal coaching. They explore where coaching genuinely helps people grow, where it can blur into harmful territory, and how high-control groups and organizations have used "coaching" language in ways that manipulate rather than empower.

They dig into the questions you should always ask before hiring a coach, why no ethical coach can promise you results, and why healing from trauma is never a one-size-fits-all, one-weekend solution. Ann also shares her own journey — recovering from cult involvement and a toxic relationship — and what actually worked when no single method had all the answers.

Whether you're considering hiring a coach, in a coaching program right now, or you're a practitioner yourself, this conversation is full of grounded, honest insight you can use.

In this episode:

• Red flags to watch for when evaluating coaches and certification programs

• The important difference between coaching, therapy, and personal support

• Why promising results is an ethical violation — and a major warning sign

• How "chosen people" group culture creates harmful us-vs-them dynamics

• What healing from cult or narcissistic abuse actually looks like

• How to know if a coaching relationship is truly working for you

  
  

🎙️ Host: Anne L. Peterson — Safe Practitioner Advocate and Creator of Confronting the Line

RESOURCES & LINKS: 

About Ann Betz, CPCC, PCC, MNTC Ann Betz is the co-founder of BEabove Leadership and an international speaker and trainer at the intersection of neuroscience, coaching, and human transformation.  Learn more https://www.beaboveleadership.com/faculty-and-staff/

Read Anne’s Book Is This A Cult: Confronting the Line Between Exploitation and Transformation and find other pods and resources →  https://isthisacultbook.com/ 

If you or someone you know is wrestling with recovery after being involved in a high-control group, relationship or any organization, check out the Healthy Healing and Recovery Group w/ Rachel Bernstein  https://ilumn8.life/op/lgat-recovery-group/ 

Join us Beyond the Line - NEW PATREON CommunityIf this conversation resonated, you’re invited to Beyond the Line—our new Patreon community for listeners who want to go deeper. 

Members receive early access to episodes, bonus reflections, and thoughtful discussions that support ethical inquiry, survivor-centered learning, and safer pathways forward. Your membership directly supports this work and helps us keep resources accessible to those who need them most.  https://www.patreon.com/cw/BeyondtheLinesStudio 

FUNDING

Read about how Confronting the Line is funded & our commitment to transparency: https://isthisacultbook.com/confronting-the-line-pod/ 

Your support helps us create thoughtful content, host conversations like this one, and offer accessible learning and support resources—including facilitated healing groups—for people leaving high-demand or coercive environments, regardless of their ability to pay.

MODERATION NOTE: 

While healthy debate and discussion regarding the topics being discussed is encouraged, personal (ad hominem) attacks on people, places or things will be deleted. 

In this episode of Confronting the Line, Anne Peterson and Dr. Ed Gurowitz examine how prestige, proximity, and institutional affiliation can shield harmful behavior.

Using the case of Jeffrey Epstein as a reference point, this conversation explores how charismatic figures embed themselves within elite networks, borrow credibility through association, and leverage social proof to build trust.

This episode is not about assigning guilt by association. It is about understanding how power operates — and why intelligent individuals and respected institutions can miss red flags.

We discuss:

• How “credibility laundering” works in elite environments • Why proximity to powerful people feels like proof of integrity • The psychology of halo effect, groupthink, and authority bias • How exclusive access reshapes perception and judgment • Why silence and reputational risk protect harmful systems

Confronting the Line examines the boundary between genuine transformation and exploitation — strengthening cultural literacy around power, influence, and ethical leadership.

For a deeper reflection on the psychological and practitioner implications of these dynamics, the conversation continues on my NEW Patreon channel - Beyond the Line.

RESOURCES & LINKS: 

Learn more about Anne & Ed’s Practitioner Studio https://ilumn8.life/op/the-practitioners-studio/ 

Read Anne’s Book Is This A Cult: Confronting the Line Between Exploitation and Transformation and find other pods and resources →  https://isthisacultbook.com/ 

If you or someone you know is wrestling with recovery after being involved in a high-control group, relationship or any organization, check out the Healthy Healing and Recovery Group w/ Rachel Bernstein  https://ilumn8.life/op/lgat-recovery-group/ 

NEW PATREON Community - Beyond the LineIf this conversation resonated, you’re invited to Beyond the Line—our new Patreon community for listeners who want to go deeper. 

Members receive early access to episodes, bonus reflections, and thoughtful discussions that support ethical inquiry, survivor-centered learning, and safer pathways forward. Your membership directly supports this work and helps us keep resources accessible to those who need them most.  https://www.patreon.com/cw/BeyondtheLinesStudio 

FUNDING

Read about how Confronting the Line is funded & our commitment to transparency: https://isthisacultbook.com/confronting-the-line-pod/ 

Your support helps us create thoughtful content, host conversations like this one, and offer accessible learning and support resources—including facilitated healing groups—for people leaving high-demand or coercive environments, regardless of their ability to pay.

MODERATION NOTE: 

While healthy debate and discussion regarding the topics being discussed is encouraged, personal (ad hominem) attacks on people, places or things will be deleted.

As part of Confronting the Line’s ongoing examination of how high-control personal development spaces impact real lives, this special series turns our focus to those who entered Landmark and similar LGAT environments as children—before they were old enough to consent, question, or fully understand the systems shaping them.

In this episode, Marlo shares what it was like growing up with a single mother deeply committed to Landmark Education and its transformational philosophy. What promised integrity and personal growth instead created emotional distance, and quickly pulled her mother away.

As Landmark became the center of the family’s world, Marlo was left to navigate a controlling and confusing environment with little support. When she struggled, her pain was reframed as resistance, negativity, or personal failure. She reflects on feeling abandoned, blamed, and gaslit, and on the long shadow that blind loyalty to the group has cast on her relationship with her mother.

Content Warning: This episode contains discussion of verbal abuse, sexual abuse of a child, emotional neglect, and high-control group dynamics. Listener discretion is advised.

This conversation examines what happens when a system that teaches responsibility and integrity doesn’t apply those principles to its own impact, and how children can become collateral damage in the pursuit of transformation.

RESOURCES & LINKS: 

Get to know Lindsey and her story on the episode we did with her recently E58 Growing Up in Landmark: Introducing Lindsey Hartzel

Join us Beyond the LineIf this conversation resonated, you’re invited to Beyond the Line—our new Patreon community for listeners who want to go deeper. 

Members receive early access to episodes, bonus reflections, and thoughtful discussions that support ethical inquiry, survivor-centered learning, and safer pathways forward. Your membership directly supports this work and helps us keep resources accessible to those who need them most.  https://www.patreon.com/cw/BeyondtheLinesStudio 

FUNDING

Read about how Confronting the Line is funded & our commitment to transparency: https://isthisacultbook.com/confronting-the-line-pod/ 

Your support helps us create thoughtful content, host conversations like this one, and offer accessible learning and support resources—including facilitated healing groups—for people leaving high-demand or coercive environments, regardless of their ability to pay.

If this episode resonated, please subscribe, consider becoming a YouTube Community Member, and share or comment to help others find the conversation.

MODERATION NOTE: 

While healthy debate and discussion regarding the topics being discussed is encouraged, personal (ad hominem) attacks on people, places or things will be deleted.

What happens when transformational programs reach people before they’re old enough to consent?

In this episode Anne formally introduces Lindsey Hartzel, who will be hosting a special series examining the impact of LGATs on children and teens.

Lindsey shares her own story of growing up inside Landmark Worldwide, and why she believes early exposure to adult-oriented transformational spaces deserves much closer scrutiny.

This conversation explores:

• Childhood participation in Landmark-style programs

• Identity formation before informed consent

• Developmental vulnerability in high-pressure environments

• Why these experiences often go unnamed or misunderstoodWhat ethical inquiry could look like moving forward

This episode lays the groundwork for a series focused on children, consent, and the long-term impact of transformational systems.

RESOURCES & LINKS: 

Read Anne’s Book Is This A Cult: Confronting the Line Between Exploitation and Transformation and find other pods and resources →  https://isthisacultbook.com/ 

If you or someone you know is wrestling with recovery after being involved in a high-control group, relationship or any organization, check out the Healthy Healing and Recovery Group w/ Rachel Bernstein  https://ilumn8.life/op/lgat-recovery-group/ 

Join us Beyond the LineIf this conversation resonated, you’re invited to Beyond the Line—our new Patreon community for listeners who want to go deeper. 

Members receive early access to episodes, bonus reflections, and thoughtful discussions that support ethical inquiry, survivor-centered learning, and safer pathways forward. Your membership directly supports this work and helps us keep resources accessible to those who need them most.

FUNDING

Read about how Confronting the Line is funded & our commitment to transparency: https://isthisacultbook.com/confronting-the-line-pod/ 

Your support helps us create thoughtful content, host conversations like this one, and offer accessible learning and support resources—including facilitated healing groups—for people leaving high-demand or coercive environments, regardless of their ability to pay.

MODERATION NOTE: 

While healthy debate and discussion regarding the topics being discussed is encouraged, personal (ad hominem) attacks on people, places or things will be deleted. 

What happens after someone speaks out—and an institution responds?

In this follow-up episode of Confronting the Line, we examine how organizations act when concerns are raised without acknowledging harm.

After Ben Eisenberg shared his experience of growing up inside Landmark Worldwide, Landmark’s Chairman of the Board of Trustees, Harry Rosenberg, responded directly. Shortly afterward, the organization removed references to youth programs from its public-facing websites and stated it has no plans to offer them going forward.

At first glance, this response can appear to reflect institutional maturity. At the same time, the communication does not acknowledge harm or engage the substance of Ben’s lived experience—raising important questions about accountability, self-preservation, and how institutions manage risk when scrutiny increases.

This episode explores:

• Action without acknowledgment

• Institutional maturity vs. self-preservation

• Symbolic change vs. structural change

• Why acknowledging harm is often avoided

• What ethical responsibility actually looks like in practice

Joined by Lindsey Moon Hartzel, we also examine the developmental and neurological impact of high-control environments on children and adolescents—and why consent, identity formation, and nervous system development must be central to any ethical discussion of youth programming.

This episode is not about condemnation. It is about clarity, responsibility, and learning where the line truly is.

FUNDING

Read about how Confronting the Line is funded & our commitment to transparency: https://isthisacultbook.com/confronting-the-line-pod/ 

HOW YOU CAN SUPPORT THIS WORK 

Confronting the Line is a listener-supported project grounded in ethical inquiry and safer learning. Your support helps us create thoughtful content and offer accessible resources for people navigating life after high-demand or coercive groups.

If this episode resonated, please subscribe, consider becoming a YouTube Community Member, and share or comment to help others find the conversation.

RESOURCES & LINKS: 

Read Ben’s manuscript here https://medium.com/@beneisenberg_10514/my-experience-growing-up-in-landmark-education-landmark-worldwide-1aae2ea2582e 

Read Anne’s Book Is This A Cult: Confronting the Line Between Exploitation and Transformation and find other pods and resources →  https://isthisacultbook.com/ 

If you or someone you know is wrestling with recovery after being involved in a high-control group, relationship or any organization, check out the Healthy Healing and Recovery Group w/ Rachel Bernstein  https://ilumn8.life/op/lgat-recovery-group/ 

MODERATION NOTE: 

While healthy debate and discussion regarding the topics being discussed is encouraged, personal (ad hominem) attacks on people, places or things will be deleted.