Today's guest is Larry Dorfman

Larry describes himself as a family person with a penchant for building culture and process in businesses. Join Sam and Larry in today's episode.

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[0:00] Intro

[0:57] The 3 questions

[1:46] Failing at retirement

[4:18] Family business

[6:45] Inverted pyramid

[8:38] Engaging the residents

[16:17] Using technology

[17:45] Investors

[20:44] Larry's tips

[23:02] Closing

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Connect with Larry:

Website: https://www.investwithroots.com/

Phone: 4047325910

Email: [email protected]

Connect with Sam:

I love helping others place money outside of traditional investments that both diversify a strategy and provide solid predictable returns.

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HowtoscaleCRE/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/samwilsonhowtoscalecre/

Email me → [email protected]

SUBSCRIBE and LEAVE A RATING. Listen to How To Scale Commercial Real Estate Investing with Sam Wilson

Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/how-to-scale-commercial-real-estate/id1539979234

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4m0NWYzSvznEIjRBFtCgEL?si=e10d8e039b99475f

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Want to read the full show notes of the episode? Check it out below:

00:00:00:06 - 00:00:25:05

Larry Dorfman

But when you can take a workforce housing person, a rental, a renter who makes 55,000, $60,000, their average savings in the United States, about $600 lifetime savings rate. Our average resident savings over 2800 right now in less than a year and a half. Wow. We have made a shift in their lives and I think everybody that watches this show knows what the pride of ownership of real estate is a part of owning something.

00:00:25:12 - 00:00:30:00

Larry Dorfman

They may never own a home, but they own real estate. Right now that is theirs.

00:00:30:12 - 00:00:49:14

Intro

Welcome to the How to Scale Commercial Real Estate Show. Whether you are an active or passive investor, we'll teach you how to scale your real estate investing business into something big.

Sam Wilson

Larry Dorfman is a family person with a penchant for building culture and processes in businesses. Larry, welcome to the show.

00:00:50:06 - 00:00:56:13

Larry Dorfman

Thanks for having me. Really excited to talk to you today. I've been reading about your show and I like how you touch on not just business, but everything.

00:00:56:19 - 00:01:12:08

Sam Wilson

Absolutely, Larry. I appreciate that. There are three questions in the pleasure's mine, by the way, for having great guests like you on the show. You're the ones that make this actually go round. So thank you for coming on today. There are three questions I ask every guest who comes on the show in 90 seconds or less. Can you tell me where did you start?

00:01:12:11 - 00:01:14:00

Sam Wilson

Where are you now and how did you get there?

00:01:15:07 - 00:01:38:05

Larry Dorfman

I started years ago on a family business that didn't work out. I learned a lot from a father who was very a personality. I was very a personality. So after about 11 years, I left there and started my own company in 1984, retired from that in 2019. And then one of my kids helped me fail at retirement and brought me into a new thing we're working on in the real estate business.

00:01:38:05 - 00:01:45:08

Larry Dorfman

I've been investing in real estate for a lot of years, possibly with one of my kids, but now we are actively building something very special.

00:01:46:02 - 00:02:00:24

Sam Wilson

That yeah, failed. I can only imagine. I mean, working that hard for that long. It's going to be tough for all of us. I mean, was there ever that grand vision of like actually retiring or was it just maybe slowing down that didn't work out?

00:02:02:07 - 00:02:19:09

Larry Dorfman

Well, it worked out beautifully. I mean, if you retire in 19 year, then I had really planned on it, but I was traveling a couple of hundred days a year. It really worked out beautifully because this thing called the pandemic happened. Mm hmm. Well, I have to go see a shrink just to get on the guilt of how much fun I had.

00:02:19:14 - 00:02:37:01

Larry Dorfman

Pandemic, which was sad because there's a lot of people die, and it was a terrible thing for sure. But I had the opportunity to have and it actually goes into our story. I have one of actually two of my kids, but this particular kid moving our house for nine months, he was under construction, redoing his property. He's the real estate guy.

00:02:37:16 - 00:02:57:20

Larry Dorfman

And I had him and his wife and his two kids. So we had multi-generational living, which we don't get to experience anymore. And I had it for nine months. We had dinner together every single night. This idea that we're into now, which is called real roots, real estate investment community, was his and a friend of his, and he started talking to me about it.

00:02:57:20 - 00:03:12:10

Larry Dorfman

And the next thing I know, he's dragged me out of retirement back into playing, but I don't think it's the slowing down. I had a great time slowing down. I still get to play at my own pace. That was my first question when he said, No, no, no, no, I don't want advice. I want to know if you want to do it with me.

00:03:13:05 - 00:03:30:09

Larry Dorfman

And I said, you can go back to work. And he said, No, no, you could just work as much as you want. I just I just want you to play. I need three different minds in here. It has been a blast. It's an honor to be asked by one of your kids to participate. We had all stayed away from working with each other because of my background with my dad.

00:03:30:13 - 00:03:34:04

Larry Dorfman

Not too well. So now we are enjoying it.

00:03:34:20 - 00:03:55:11

Sam Wilson

That's really cool and I think that's extra special. Thanks for sharing that because there are myself included, you know, many of us that would probably, you know, avoid working with family just because we go. I know you and I know your quirks and I know my quirks and I know how those quirks may not work together so well.

00:03:56:06 - 00:04:18:19

Sam Wilson

And I think having, again, just a testament of of what you said there in your bio, you know, building, I think it's the effect of focusing on family and businesses that I can't really how I read it. But anyway, it ties into what you were talking about just right there that your kids were able to move in with you, your grandkids were able to move in with you for nine months, and you look back on that time fondly.

00:04:18:19 - 00:04:29:05

Sam Wilson

That's really, really cool. How does that how does that kind of approach to life impact or how has it impacted the way you do business entirely?

00:04:29:12 - 00:04:47:09

Larry Dorfman

I mean, literally entirely. It's it's such a great question. I mean, what a great question. I don't we don't really look at business in person. You know, if I ever wrote a book, it would be called It's More Personal Than that because it's only business. It's not personal is probably the biggest load of you know what I mean?

00:04:47:09 - 00:05:12:12

Larry Dorfman

History, because we live our lives and it's one life. And in the time that we have is, you know, it's all mixed together all the time. So it's not about balancing work life. It's just balancing life, right? And so about 12 or 15 years ago, you are very A-plus personality drive in a business from 1984 to call it 12 or 15 years ago, when I always stayed very engaged with my kids.

00:05:12:12 - 00:05:31:05

Larry Dorfman

But when I started to realize that hammer and that nail all day long wasn't getting what we wanted, it was it was actually causing things to slow down in the business. You know, we became an org chart with almost 300 people on it, 280 people on it with me in the middle and everything going through it. And that really doesn't work.

00:05:31:05 - 00:05:53:24

Larry Dorfman

And so I picked up a book suggested to me by a very dear friend and client of mine called Traction by Gino Whitman. And man, I'll tell you what, we took that thing it was intended to be for, you know, companies with 10 to 50 people. We tripled the business in about four years after starting it. And and it really gave us a process that mixed into our philosophy.

00:05:54:00 - 00:06:15:24

Larry Dorfman

We had a really good culture already. We we believe in treating people well, but when someone died, we'd still be hammered, right? Well, it wasn't done because there was no process to execute. So once we got a really solid execution process in place, it just made being nicer to each other and having more compassion in our requests. Understanding when somebody failed, helping them succeed.

00:06:15:24 - 00:06:20:13

Larry Dorfman

After that, it just turned into another thing. And we got we got bigger and bigger.

00:06:21:09 - 00:06:41:22

Sam Wilson

That's amazing. That's amazing. Yeah. And that book certainly is at the top of the list of, you know, books recommended on this show for people, people looking to scale their businesses. I want to come back and talk more about the culture side of your business here in a little bit. But you had it sounded like I mean, a company with 300 plus people in it.

00:06:41:22 - 00:06:44:09

Sam Wilson

That's it's a sizable operation.

00:06:44:23 - 00:07:13:21

Larry Dorfman

You're lucky it had about 526 and 19. And today I think that probably together they just made an acquisition, maybe another 250. Wow. So, you know, it's a good sized company. It's been around a long time because anytime you stay more than five years, ten years, 20 now, 30 something at this point in the culture that business was was built on the basis of what's called an inverted pyramid, where a service organization where the CEO and the key team are at the bottom.

00:07:14:22 - 00:07:34:02

Larry Dorfman

And instead of sitting at the top of this org chart looking down at people, you know, I can't even I can't even hear the term push it down through the organization. I just for a while, oh, I want to look up and help the next group of people above us have the resources and things they need right to do their job and get out their way.

00:07:34:03 - 00:07:49:03

Larry Dorfman

And then they need to do the same thing because at the end, the big wide party is the one that's touching the customer. Yeah. That's who you need to listen to respect the most and and really get your feedback from to see how your business runs. And so that's sort of the kind of culture we built.

00:07:49:19 - 00:08:09:08

Sam Wilson

Yeah. And that was something I got. I'll go back to a story I read on Southwest Airlines. Now, of course, they've had their fair share of trouble here recently, but this was maybe 30 years ago and it was kind of a revolutionary thing they did. They went out to the flight lines and they talked to all the baggage handlers, they talked to the mechanics, they talked to all the people going, Hey, how can we make this thing better?

00:08:09:08 - 00:08:29:15

Sam Wilson

And then the treasure trove of information that they gleaned from that study really changed the trajectory of their business. So I like that idea of the inverted org chart. You've been in real estate all these years. You go into retirement and your son comes to you and he says, Hey, I got something cool. This is what I want your help with.

00:08:29:16 - 00:08:31:24

Sam Wilson

How is it different and what is it?

00:08:32:21 - 00:08:37:19

Larry Dorfman

Yeah. So first of all, I was in real estate. It was actually an automotive business. I was investing in real estate with Daniel.

00:08:38:05 - 00:08:38:15

Sam Wilson

Got it.

00:08:38:18 - 00:08:59:02

Larry Dorfman

Okay. Been doing syndicated deals. He Daniel 13, 14 years ago every dollar his wife would collect, they bought another one, another rental, the typical bill one at a time basis until they had a portfolio of 23 homes. He was trying to build, you know, passive income to where he wouldn't have to work at all. But he has a little fire in him.

00:08:59:02 - 00:09:20:13

Larry Dorfman

So that didn't work out too well. He just kept on going. And then so when I stepped out, you know, we had I probably was involved with six or seven properties with them. So I watched and seen his particular extraordinary talent to buy property in a way that is a win for everybody. But still to buy back a market because like the U.S. car business, the real estate business is no different.

00:09:20:13 - 00:09:35:02

Larry Dorfman

You make your money when you buy the property. Now, when you sell it right, you're going to sell it when you own it already, you can take your time and sell it to the person who wants it and you make the money. And it makes in most markets, if you have if your patient has some capital, you can stay longer, write songs, it's rented.

00:09:35:02 - 00:09:51:01

Larry Dorfman

You're fine buying it, though. Too many people hurry to buy what they want because they just need to have out of the property. They got 60 grand. They want to make a down payment on. Hopefully they got that many people buy with too little and then they end up with a property that they didn't really evaluate and they end up stuck with that.

00:09:51:06 - 00:10:10:22

Larry Dorfman

Right. So I watched Daniel do that. When he came to me with this idea, I thought, Wow, this is different. So I'll answer that question. What's different about it over the years? You know, we have some experience with a lot of residents living in our properties and what it's like to turn the property and the maintenance costs and all those pieces.

00:10:11:19 - 00:10:36:12

Larry Dorfman

The Daniel's main theory at Root's investment community was, what if you actually engage the resident who lives in the property? I mean, people call them tenants, right? Yeah. Well, you call them tenants and you treat them like tenants. You're going to have a tenement when you get it back. And it's going to be you know, if you talk to workforce housing, people and ask them how often they get their security deposit back, it is almost zero.

00:10:37:23 - 00:10:58:23

Larry Dorfman

Our our estimates are 81% of the time. They get nothing. And the other 19, maybe something or occasionally at all, they don't believe they're going to get it back. So they live in it like they're not going to get it back. Daniel's theory was, how do you increase the value of the asset for the investor? Well, bring the resident in and let them be an investor.

00:10:59:07 - 00:11:31:02

Larry Dorfman

Let them actually own not just a piece of that property, but a piece of an entire real estate fund that happens at this point to be based in Atlanta, where take their security deposit instead of calling a security deposit from an investment deposit. And it's invested into the privately held right our roots investment community that is a reg fund registered with the SEC so that anybody non-accredited investors can invest as little as $100 and get in, let those people invest.

00:11:31:02 - 00:11:51:18

Larry Dorfman

Let them start to make the same returns as the people who invested to buy the buildings, and you'll get a better return our cost return in our property. Same is one third, one third of what it used to be before residents were engaged. And so these residents literally live in the properties like they own it because they do, they take better care of it and therefore the assets worth.

00:11:53:06 - 00:12:09:24

Sam Wilson

That's incredible. I would imagine there would be just some educational hurdles. I love the concept. Right. Because yeah, no, no one no one watches a rental car. Right. But you wash your own car off my own.

00:12:10:04 - 00:12:10:14

Larry Dorfman

Lot.

00:12:12:08 - 00:12:37:06

Sam Wilson

And it's like I've never washed a rental car. Now I think about it in the same thing for these, you know, residents that you have. But there needs to be some education component because a lot of I'm just, you know, projecting here. But I would imagine that this workforce housing resident doesn't have that typical mindset of how to invest in real estate, how to own part of a company, how to be an owner.

00:12:37:14 - 00:12:39:05

Sam Wilson

How do you engage that.

00:12:39:15 - 00:13:07:05

Larry Dorfman

You have even know how to own a property, right? So give me an example. The rules are really simple. Live it like you own it as a trademark we've got. And it means that you're going to pay your rent on time. You're going to be a good neighbor because we have duplexes, triplexes, etc. and once a quarter you're going to help us and be the eyes on the property, not as a police person, but as a helper, saying here's a video showing us the inside, the outside of your property.

00:13:07:05 - 00:13:13:22

Larry Dorfman

If it's an apartment, it's just the inside, obviously. And you're going to show us anything you think needs work.

00:13:14:07 - 00:13:14:15

Sam Wilson

Hmm.

00:13:15:04 - 00:13:28:11

Larry Dorfman

By the way, at the same time, you're showing us that you're taking care of it right now. So in these works, so if you see a dark spot in the bathroom, don't ignore that. Don't, don't, don't, don't think. We don't want to know. We do want to know because that could be a water leak for about 150 bucks.

00:13:28:11 - 00:13:50:09

Larry Dorfman

Right now, our mold abatement problem for 4000 later on. Right. So when Daniel first said to me, I'm going to do a video every quarter, I said, you're out of your mind, right? We're not going to do that. He says that it is about just what you just said, education. And if we communicate properly, they'll do it. Well, we are in our fourth, seventh.

00:13:50:09 - 00:14:21:05

Larry Dorfman

We just finished our seventh quarter nor six quarter in the bond last quarter. First quarter of this year, we had the largest success rate, 83.7% of our residents is right out of 100 doors. Actually, did everything pay the rent on time. We're great neighbors and took the video. And when they do that, they not only get their their reserve that's been put away in their account, they get a $50 rebate rent put in their account every month.

00:14:21:14 - 00:14:42:03

Larry Dorfman

Wow. So in a year, let's take a 1400 for a rental. And here they've got 6000 plus the lift of the quarterly dividends. They can either take those dividends in cash or put them back in their account. And the increase in the net asset value of the fund, which has averaged about ten or 11% in the first year and a half per year annually.

00:14:42:15 - 00:15:03:16

Larry Dorfman

So in 2022, this fund made 16%, including dividends and that asset value. So we know you've got residents who are involved. Number one big winner story we got, we had a resident come to us. They live in a in a single family home. We're downstairs is is a basement unit. Upstairs is a three bedroom, two back there in the side door entrance, the basement unit.

00:15:03:17 - 00:15:27:09

Larry Dorfman

And be honest with you, it wasn't looking that good. Yeah, right. Walk around the path is just a path to the basement. They asked if we would buy them some supplies. We'd reimburse them if they went out and bought the supplies and redid their entryway. I got the pictures yesterday and it's in 260 bucks worth of materials we gave them and they had to put three weekends of work into this thing.

00:15:27:16 - 00:15:57:21

Larry Dorfman

Beautiful walkway to chairs, stones. I mean, just, you know, they improved our property. Sure. Right. And they're looking all of them are on a platform, a digital technical platform we built that they can see their growth and see their money. And yes, we're reminded every month and we are educating them. But when you can take a workforce housing person, a rental, a renter who makes 55,000, $60,000, their average savings in the United States, about $600 lifetime savings rate.

00:15:58:05 - 00:16:16:04

Larry Dorfman

Our average resident savings over 2800 right now in less than a year and a half. Wow. We have made a shift in their lives and I think everybody that watches this show knows with the pride of ownership of real estate is a part of owning something. They may never own a home, but they own real estate. Right now that is theirs.

00:16:17:00 - 00:16:42:15

Sam Wilson

That's really cool. Well, what motivation for those of you are listening to this show to go out and really rethink the way we do resident engagement? I mean, that's that's just a really cool success story. I've got several questions that kind of tie into that though. One of them was an automation question, which I think maybe you answered there, because part of me goes, okay, 100 people send a video every quarter.

00:16:42:15 - 00:16:48:18

Sam Wilson

Like, I mean, I'm thinking, how do you track that? How do you tie the right that?

00:16:48:18 - 00:17:12:20

Larry Dorfman

Yeah, we're building a technology stack, technology stack, which is critical to what we're doing because, look, we can't own property and do this all over the country. Right? But we can lay a piece of technology over any other landlord who wants to improve their landlord, resident relationship, who wants to have their property better take care of who's willing to not only make money, but make it with their residents.

00:17:12:20 - 00:17:40:17

Larry Dorfman

And by the way, you make more when you include everybody. Yeah, right. And then and then there's there's just all we we foresee about a million people on this platform. That is our objective is to help a million people grow. Well, non-accredited investors who haven't been able to get into real estate and residents not only of our properties, but residents of other people's properties who can use this same implementation with the tools needed that we can assist right now.

00:17:40:17 - 00:18:05:14

Sam Wilson

I like that because it because there was a here I hear what you're saying. I think you said there's roughly 100 doors right now that you're running this this program on and I kind of just not even back the napkin back of my head Matt said gosh 100 doors. I would think that the overhead of running a reggae fund of kind of doing all of the you know, the tenant where they can look on their phone and say, hey, this is the value of the value of my shares, blah, blah, blah.

00:18:05:16 - 00:18:10:09

Sam Wilson

Keeping track of the accounting would become kind of really burdensome at that scale.

00:18:10:18 - 00:18:20:02

Larry Dorfman

It is extremely expensive. Yeah, but the barrier to entry to other people who learn about what we're doing and want to do it, we want everybody to do it. We just want to use our technology.

00:18:20:10 - 00:18:31:23

Sam Wilson

Right? So you're simultaneously building a you're building a PROPTECH platform, but also building a real estate holdings for you and your son and your family.

00:18:32:10 - 00:18:59:07

Larry Dorfman

Well, there is there are over 400 members that have invested in this fund already. Wow. From all over the country, about 90% of them, maybe a little bit more. We raised $11 million since June 1st, of course. But when you talk about scaling, we went to market with no properties. We paid dividends from the first quarter and a 6% dividend rate annually because in a rate, you can make money either lending it as mortgage money or you can do it as is real estate investment.

00:18:59:18 - 00:19:34:22

Larry Dorfman

So we took the money that we took in the first quarter, 2.1 million loaned it to our partner company seed, who goes out and buys this property for us, right wires. It fully optimizes. It gets a renter in, it starts gets it. Making money trains the residents because the right residence in his roots bond doesn't buy any properties are fully occupied and paying a 6% plus cash on cash so so that all happens and when you when you have a building that piece the real estate piece is really the the basis upon which we can build the technology to take elsewhere.

00:19:34:22 - 00:20:03:16

Larry Dorfman

Because let's say a landlord has properties in in Texas. Right, right. They're not going to go spend the money to be a reggae and do it. We're doing it. It's just not going to happen. Right. But here's the deal. If they're 400 residents, we'll take care of the property they are living in and they can own a piece of a fund that is a nationally accessible fund, you know, under compliant, under SCC Regulation A and they can invest their reserve and earn rental rebates and build wealth.

00:20:03:21 - 00:20:23:19

Larry Dorfman

Okay. It's Atlanta, Georgia, one of the best markets in the world. Right. So it's not any different. One of the things we like is it's not a single asset property. Right. I mean, one, asset properties are long holds, right. Can't ask non accredited investors to hold for 3 to 5 seven years. People who invest in roots invest as long as $100.

00:20:23:19 - 00:20:44:07

Larry Dorfman

There's no fee to get in. There's no fee to get out unless if you come out in the first year, it's a 6% discount because you're getting paid dividends during that year. If you stay long enough to get capital gains one year, no fee to get out and every quarter you can redeem up to $100,000 any individual. So it's a pretty liquid real estate investment.

00:20:44:16 - 00:21:13:11

Sam Wilson

Wow. That's really, really cool, Larry. You guys have put a ton of thought and a bet, a lot of late nights around the kitchen table figuring out how exactly to get this thing done. And I can't imagine the amount of work that's gone into this. What would you say are some of the some of the really things that are things that you feel like you've done really well that others people should emulate when taking on a monumental task of this size like, what's something you said from the outset?

00:21:13:11 - 00:21:15:15

Sam Wilson

This is the way we're going to do this and actually get it done.

00:21:16:11 - 00:21:36:15

Larry Dorfman

At number one, make your mistakes when you're small. So don't be in a hurry. You know, we we we just we're not going to go out. And this is where one of the problems of institutional investors buying a thousand homes and ended up with 500 of them they need to sell about right now. Right. Right. So for us, we didn't have that wherewithal anywhere, that capability.

00:21:36:15 - 00:21:56:11

Larry Dorfman

So we were very, very focused on making all our mistakes while we're small. Yeah, we're still making some mistakes, but when you're writing a piece of technology that you're going to consider to be a fast product, it's going to go national. You got to get all that worked out. So that would be the number one thing. Number two, really build the team.

00:21:56:11 - 00:22:14:14

Larry Dorfman

People are everything. They make all the difference. And and I believe very strongly in a friend of mine, Dave Anderson, he's a motivational speaker is also he says our our slowly in fact we haven't made every decision perfectly but when we meet somebody and talk about them coming on our team, they're going to read a couple of books we read.

00:22:14:14 - 00:22:43:05

Larry Dorfman

They're going to read our core values, which stand very important for us. They all sit in our wallets. They on our desks. They're going to understand what's expected of them and they're going to tell us what they expect from us. And we're going to live by that together. And, you know, really basically people who will do what they say they're going to do and be accountable to themselves once you get the two things together that and they'll be in a rush to get it done, you can start to build something and a basis upon which you can scale from.

00:22:43:05 - 00:23:02:14

Sam Wilson

Larry, I love it. Thank you for taking the time to come on the show today. I've learned so much from you. Certainly learned a ton from you on the examining the landlord and resident relationship, how you guys are tackling that how you guys are making residents part really of what it is that you're doing and making a meaningful difference in their lives, but also improving.

00:23:02:14 - 00:23:14:24

Sam Wilson

I mean, just the return profiles of your own properties, I mean, that's just an exceptional win win and it's not something we get to hear about every single day. So that's really cool. I love what you're doing. If our listeners want to get in touch with you and learn more about you, what is the best way to do that?

00:23:15:16 - 00:23:42:05

Larry Dorfman

Real simple. You can go to invest with roots dot com where actually you can invest right on our website in about 3 minutes. You can call me personally at 447325910. We are a very personal business and where you can hit me at El Dorfman at Invest with roots dot com and love to talk to anybody questions about it I really love when we get challenges Sam or we'll go there's no way you're going to be able to make 60%.

00:23:42:05 - 00:23:53:09

Larry Dorfman

Well, you're right. If you're counting on a 10% appreciation of every property every year. Right. Right. But there's another way to do it. So everybody's got a question about that. Give me a call or an email and we'll put up on top.

00:23:53:17 - 00:23:56:19

Sam Wilson

Sounds great. Thank you again later for coming on the show today. I do appreciate it.

00:23:57:07 - 00:23:58:04

Larry Dorfman

Thank you for having me.

00:23:58:16 - 00:24:20:01

Sam Wilson

Hey, thanks for listening to the how to Scale commercial real Estate Podcast. If you can do me a favor and subscribe and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, whatever platform it is you use to listen. If you can do that for us, that would be a fantastic help to the show. It helps us both attract new listeners as well as rank higher on those directories.

00:24:20:01 - 00:24:23:07

Sam Wilson

So appreciate you listening. Thanks so much and hope to catch you on the next episode.