What can the Church learn from the 500-year tradition of Latino Christian justice and the way in invited all cultural treasure and wealth into the beloved community?

“When my students heard that Christ suffered outside the gate, it’s like the blinders fall down and there is deep, profound encounter with God.”

UCLA professor, pastor, and author Robert Chao Romero sits down with Nikki Toyama-Szeto to share his story of faith, identity, and justice. From his Mexican and Chinese roots to his experiences of exclusion growing up in Los Angeles, Romero reflects on his journey of finding belonging in Christ and in the church. His groundbreaking book Brown Church uncovers a 500-year history of Latino Christian justice, from Antonio de Montesinos’s 1511 sermon against colonialism to today’s movements for immigration reform and racial equity.

Romero challenges the dichotomy that faith and justice cannot coexist, insisting that true Christianity embraces both. Together, he and Toyama-Szeto explore themes of cultural treasure, the metaphor of Christ outside the gate, and the future of a diverse church that welcomes all identities into God’s beloved community.

1. “So for all those young Latinos who wrestle with, how do I reconcile faith in Jesus with caring about justice and Latino culture, I say, welcome to the Brown Church.”
2. “Jesus becomes irresistible when we embrace both of the wings of the plane—personal faith and justice.”
3. “When my students heard that Christ suffered outside the gate, it’s like the blinders fall down and there is deep, profound encounter with God.”
4. “We need all the glory to glorify God. And unfortunately what’s happened is that many ethnic communities have been forced to leave their glory outside the city gates.”
5. “The Brown Church does not exist for the sake of the Brown Church…but as a distinct entry point into the beloved community of all.”

Robert Chao Romero is associate professor in the UCLA César E. Chávez Department of Chicana/o and Central American Studies and in the Department of Asian American Studies. Holding a PhD in Latin American history from UCLA and a JD from UC Berkeley, he is the author of Brown Church and other works on immigration, race, history, and Christianity. Romero is also an attorney, pastor, and co-director of the Brown Church Institute, dedicated to exploring the intersection of faith, justice, and identity in multicultural communities.

Nikki Toyama-Szeto is the host of Credible Witness and executive director of Christians for Social Action. She leads conversations at the intersection of faith and justice, highlighting diverse voices that witness to the credibility of the gospel in contemporary society.

• Robert Chao Romero reflects on Latino identity, faith, and justice through his book Brown Church
• Experiences of racism in 1970s–80s Los Angeles shaped his search for belonging and identity
• Family heritage: Chinese grandparents fleeing persecution in China, Mexican immigrant father, roots in Latino and Chinese churches
• Law school crisis and encounter with Jesus transformed his life’s direction
• Calling to bring together academic research and pastoral ministry into integrated vocation
• “I’m tired of leaving two thirds of myself outside the academic door when I do research and teaching.”
• Discovery of Antonio de Montesinos’s 1511 racial justice sermon in Hispaniola
• Theologians like Gustavo Gutiérrez (A Theology of Liberation), René Padilla, and Samuel Escobar shaped holistic gospel mission
• Christ “outside the gate” metaphor resonates deeply with Latino students facing exclusion
• Revelation 21 and the glory and honor of nations as cultural treasures offered to God
• The Brown Church as both a theological tradition and a model of belonging
• “Jesus becomes irresistible when we embrace both of the wings of the plane—personal faith and justice.”
• Beloved community as the ultimate goal: all tribes, languages, peoples, and nations welcomed

Credible Witness is brought to you by the Rethinking Church Initiative. Produced and edited by Mark Labberton, Sarey Martin Concepcion and Evan Rosa. Hosted by Nikki Toyama-Szeto.

Special thanks to Fuller Theological Seminary, Christians for Social Action, and to Brenda Salter McNeill, whose book inspired the title of the show.

For more information, visit CredibleWitness.us.

How can Evangelicalism today reclaim its gospel identity through love, hospitality, justice, and comprehensive good news?

“I think anything other than that is an impoverished gospel.”

Pastor Walter Kim, president of the National Association of Evangelicals, joins host Nikki Toyama-Szeto on Credible Witness to wrestle with the future of evangelicalism. From Luke 4’s vision of Jesus’s inaugural message—”The Spirit of the Lord is upon me …”—Kim reclaims the gospel as comprehensive. It is meant for transforming individuals, communities, institutions, and systems.

He reflects on his immigrant journey, the gift of hospitality, raising a daughter with Down syndrome, and his deep longing for the church to embody “all of Jesus for all of life.” Alongside sobering reflections on spiritual poverty in the American church, Kim shares hopeful stories of holistic community transformation in Boston, Charlottesville, and Malawi.

With honesty and empathy, he calls Christians to move beyond ideological “whack-a-mole” and into a witness shaped by hospitality, solidarity, repentance, and joy. For Kim, this is not just about evangelical identity—it’s about reclaiming the credibility of Christian witness in a fractured world.

• Walter Kim’s immigrant background and early encounters with Christian hospitality
• Reflections on Korean American church life, belonging, and faith formation
• Diverse ministry contexts: Yale, Vancouver, Boston, and Charlottesville
• Story of his daughter with Down syndrome and discovering holistic gospel in Malawi
• Contrast of economic prosperity vs. spiritual poverty in America
• Evangelicalism’s “identity crisis” and politicization
• Critique of “ideological whack-a-mole” and fear-driven church witness
• Rethinking evangelicalism through multicultural expressions of faith
• Personal story of racial vulnerability with a friend in Charlottesville
• Vision of a comprehensive gospel shaped by empathy, hospitality, and delight

• Luke 4:18–19
• National Association of Evangelicals
• Christianity Today
• World Relief
• Regent College
• Park Street Church, Boston
• Public Faith by Miroslav Volf

Walter Kim is president of the National Association of Evangelicals, serves on the boards of Christianity Today and World Relief, and has pastored churches in Boston, Vancouver, and Charlottesville. He previously served as a chaplain at Yale University. As a Korean American and son of immigrant parents, he brings a global and deeply personal perspective to questions of Christian witness and evangelical identity.

Nikki Toyama-Szeto is executive director of Christians for Social Action and host of Credible Witness. She leads conversations at the intersection of faith, justice, and culture, inviting guests to share wisdom from their lived experience of discipleship and social engagement.

• Walter Kim on Jesus’s Luke 4 inauguration speech defining the gospel
• “I think anything other than that is an impoverished gospel.”
• Holistic gospel: personal salvation and systemic transformation
• Evangelical identity crisis and demographic shifts in the U.S.
• Immigrant church growth and Boston’s revival through global Christianity
• Story of Kim’s daughter with Down syndrome speaking in Malawi
• Contrast between economic and spiritual poverty
• Evangelicalism’s entanglement with politics and fear-driven witness
• “Ideological whack-a-mole” and cultural antagonism
• Learning from Asian American expressions of honor/shame in evangelism
• Hospitality, belonging, and community across ministry contexts
• Racial vulnerability, friendship, and solidarity in Charlottesville
• Recovering joy and delight as a vision of God’s love
• Examples of holistic community transformation in Boston and Charlottesville
• Vision for evangelical renewal rooted in repentance, empathy, and comprehensive gospel

Credible Witness is brought to you by the Rethinking Church Initiative. Produced and edited by Mark Labberton, Sarey Martin Concepcion and Evan Rosa. Hosted by Nikki Toyama-Szeto.

Special thanks to Fuller Theological Seminary, Christians for Social Action, and to Brenda Salter McNeill, whose book inspired the title of the show.

For more information, visit CredibleWitness.us.

How can Black brilliance and joy help the whole church reimagine faithful witness to the Gospel, and flourishing through courage, resilience, and data.

In this episode, Rev. Dr. Brianna Parker reflects on the meaning of Black brilliance and joy, rooted in the tenacity, creativity, and faith of Black communities. Rev. Bri is a researcher, preacher, and leader committed to catalyzing change in the Black church. From childhood experiences of being called to preach in a church that didn’t welcome women in ministry, to navigating toxic church environments early in her career, Brianna shares how her faith, resilience, and refusal to accept “no” shaped her calling.

She highlights the transformative power of data in ministry, the urgent need for joy in Black communities, and the role of the Black church in nurturing gifts, providing safety, and sustaining hope. Through stories of perseverance, authenticity, and innovation, Brianna paints a vision of the Black church as a place of flourishing and brilliance—an indispensable gift to Christianity and the world.

Key Moments

1. “Black brilliance is like finding our way, when no one has made a way.”
2. “Every day is opposite day for me, and it’s really a faith thing more than it is confidence.”
3. “I am Black and brilliant because I looked at an area nobody else cared about.”
4. “Black joy is when you can be a 200-something pound Black man, maybe with locks in your hair and frolic.”
5. “What does it look like to have a place where people can flourish?”

About the Contributors

Rev. Dr. Brianna K. Parker (Rev. Bri) is a faith leader, scholar, and data activist. She is CEO of Black Millennial Café, LLC (BMC), a consulting practice and data resource center for Black churches, communities, and organizations. She served as the lead researcher for Barna Group’s State of the Black Church study and creator of the first-of-its-kind ministry development subscription program, BlackChurchLeader.com. Through the Black Millennial Café, Rev. Bri intentionally gathers data for understanding and transformation of Black communities. She lectures and presents empirical data on faith and Black communities concerns nationwide. BMC resources include commissioned data and a suite of services for churches and organizations interested in faith or social impact. She is the author of I Still Believe in the Black Church and a sought-after voice on the intersections of faith, culture, and community innovation.

Nikki Toyama-Szeto is Executive Director of Christians for Social Action and host of Credible Witness, a podcast amplifying faithful voices navigating complexity, courage, and hope.

Show Notes

• Brianna Parker’s early calling to ministry and visions at age 15
• Sister Dixon’s encouragement: “Brianna, you can be Oprah, you can be an astronaut, you can be a president”
• Struggles as a woman called to preach in spaces that didn’t affirm women in ministry
• “Every day is opposite day for me, and it’s really a faith thing more than it is confidence”
• Defining Black brilliance as finding a way where none exists
• Stories of Black brilliance: Amanda Gorman’s inauguration poem; valedictorian walking to graduation in St. Louis
• Data as ministry: Parker’s work founding Black Millennial Café (BMC)
• “I am Black and brilliant because I looked at an area nobody else cared about”
• Black joy as more than happiness—frolicking, freedom, and flourishing
• Authenticity vs. transparency in church leadership
• Rethinking church after toxic ministry experiences
• “What does it look like to have a place where people can flourish? That’s human flourishing”
• The Black church as a safe, unique space of nurture and resilience
• Brianna Parker’s book: I Still Believe in the Black Church
• Work of psychologist Thema Bryant on Black self-care

Credible Witness is brought to you by the Rethinking Church Initiative. Produced and edited by Mark Labberton, Sarey Martin Concepcion and Evan Rosa. Hosted by Nikki Toyama-Szeto.

Special thanks to Fuller Theological Seminary, Christians for Social Action, and to Brenda Salter McNeill, whose book inspired the title of the show.

For more information, visit CredibleWitness.us.

Will the church live its peculiar, Jesus-centered identity?

In this episode, Presbyterian minister and former Fuller Seminary president Mark Labberton joins Nikki Toyama-Szeto to wrestle with the urgent question: Will the church live its true identity? Reflecting on his ministry in Berkeley among “cultured despisers,” his pastoral experience during the AIDS crisis of the ‘80s and ‘90s, and his convening of the Rethinking Church Initiative, Labberton describes the church as a “peculiar community”—one that must embody love, justice, and mercy across difference. Together, Nikki and Mark explore the scandal of the church’s self-delusion, the urgent need for public credibility, and the role of imagination, curiosity, and presence in cultivating transformative communities. Labberton insists the church is meant to be God’s chief apologetic in the world: a living witness of Christ’s love across cultures, identities, and divides.

Key Moments

• "I was just amazed at how the thing that cracked open the universe was Jesus' teaching of the kingdom of God."
• "Many people not in the church want to believe, but they find that the church is one of the great hurdles."
• "Yeah, those are my people." (on Schleiermacher’s “cultured despisers”)
• "Aren't we all?" (Berkeley art store clerk to Mark’s question)
• "How dare you? How dare you? How dare you? How dare you. In 42 different directions."
• "I began to even more deeply grieve… the way that the church shoots itself in the foot or discredits the gospel by its own doing."
• "It underscored the essential risk of moving out of our comfort zones and into new places of hopefully love and mercy and support."
• "To me, the issue at stake is really, will the church live its identity?"
• "Why would I not wanna live or lead in a world where those realities are at hand almost every day?"
• "The urgency for me continues to be the way the church is meant to be God's chief apologetic… God's plan A, and there is no plan B."

About the Contributors

Mark Labberton is a Presbyterian minister and served as president of Fuller Seminary from 2013–2022. Previously, he was pastor of First Presbyterian Church of Berkeley, California. He is the author of The Dangerous Act of Worship and a leader in rethinking the church’s mission of love, justice, and credible witness in today’s world. Listen to his weekly podcast, Conversing.

Nikki Toyama-Szeto is Executive Director of Christians for Social Action, where she works with leaders from across sectors to catalyze faith into action for justice. She hosts Credible Witness and writes widely on the intersection of faith, justice, and global engagement.

Show Notes

• Mark Labberton on growing up outside church, early skepticism, and finding Jesus’s radical, inclusive vision of community
• “Cultured despisers” (Friedrich Schleiermacher) and their relevance today
• “The church is meant to be God’s chief apologetic… God’s plan A, and there is no plan B.”
• “I’m looking for something that might not exist.” “Aren’t we all?”,
• Imaginary Berkeley pulpit protestors demanding “How dare you?”
• The AIDS crisis: national church rhetoric vs. local pastoral presence in hospices
• The Dangerous Act of Worship — Labberton’s book exploring tension, suffering, and faithful witness
• The scandal of small-making, self-delusion, and cultural captivity in the church
• Identity question: Will the church live out its peculiar Jesus-centered identity as a community?
• Cultivating curiosity: listening to Uber drivers, hearing hidden immigrant and racialized stories
• Convening the Rethinking Church Initiative: rethinking beyond institutional boundaries and holding space for diverse experiences of Christianity
• Honest collisions of revival vs. planning, institutional vs. independent voices
• The “beautiful mess” of diverse community and discipleship
• Jesus’s question “What would Jesus do?” reclaimed as true Christian discernment
• The urgency of living identity, embodying justice, enemy love, and sacrificial action

Credible Witness is brought to you by the Rethinking Church Initiative. Produced and edited by Mark Labberton, Sarey Martin Concepcion and Evan Rosa. Hosted by Nikki Toyama-Szeto.

Special thanks to Fuller Theological Seminary, Christians for Social Action, and to Brenda Salter McNeill, whose book inspired the title of the show.

For more information, visit CredibleWitness.us.

"You can only be loved to the extent that you are known."

Santiago “Jimmy” Mellado’s story stretches across borders, identities, and vocations. Born in El Salvador to adventurous parents, raised across continents, and educated in American schools, Jimmy longed for belonging—even if it meant leaving Santiago behind. An Olympic decathlete and later president of the Willow Creek Association, Mellado found himself at the center of the American church, but haunted by the quiet whisper: “That’s not you. Why are you running away from who I created you to be?” In this conversation with Nikki Toyama-Szeto, Mellado reflects on the journey of embracing his full name, heritage, and calling. He recounts powerful stories of instability turned to faith, of finding home in Jesus, of rethinking church, and of serving as CEO of Compassion International. Ultimately, his testimony reveals a profound truth: you can only be loved to the extent that you are known.

"You can only be loved to the extent that you are known."

“Moving that much is usually not good for a kid. But my life was incredibly stable, not because we were in the same place, but because we followed the same savior in all the places and that was Jesus.”

“I wanted to be white. I wanted to be Caucasian. I wanted to be Jimmy, not Santiago. Call me Jimmy.”

“That’s not you. At least not fully you. Why are you running away from who I created you to be?”

“I went for an athletic experience. I came home with a calling to serve the church.”

“We wanna extend the love of Jesus to everyone, but you can only be loved to the extent that you are known.”

Santiago "Jimmy" Mellado

Santiago "Jimmy" Mellado is President and CEO of Compassion International, a global child development organization serving over two million children living in poverty. A former Olympic decathlete representing El Salvador at the 1988 Seoul Games, he previously served as president of the Willow Creek Association, helping it grow from a network of 800 churches to over 7,000 worldwide. Mellado is passionate about holistic discipleship, church partnerships, and empowering the global body of Christ.

Nikki Toyama-Szeto

Nikki Toyama-Szeto is the host of Credible Witness and Executive Director of Christians for Social Action. She writes and speaks on leadership, justice, and faith in public life.

• Childhood across El Salvador, Nicaragua, Bolivia, Panama, and the Philippines
• Family church as a first church: “My life was incredibly stable… because we followed the same savior in all the places.”
• Fear, insecurity, and beginning daily Bible reading at age 12 in Panama
• Experiences of coups, hurricanes, and Noriega’s arrest of his father in Panama
• Competing in the 1988 Seoul Olympics as a decathlete for El Salvador
• Encounter with revival and prayer movements in Korea shaping his lifelong calling to serve the church
• Leadership at Willow Creek Association and the Global Leadership Summit
• “A safe place for dangerous questions” as a vision for rethinking church
• Diversity challenges at Willow Creek and the haunting whisper: “That’s not you.”
• Reclaiming the name Santiago and embracing full identity
• Transition to Compassion International: Christ-centered, church-driven, child-focused mission
• Vibrant faith of the global south church and lessons of humility for the western church
• Partnership as mutual healing: “It’s not the wealthy church helping the poor church. It’s the church healing each other.”
• The theology of names: “You can only be loved to the extent that you are known.”
• Hope for the global church as “little Christs” embodying Jesus together

Production Credits

Credible Witness is brought to you by the Rethinking Church Initiative. Hosted by Nikki Toyama-Szeto. Produced by Mark Labberton, Sarey Martin Concepción, and Evan Rosa

Credible Witness is brought to you by the Rethinking Church Initiative. Produced and edited by Mark Labberton, Sarey Martin Concepcion and Evan Rosa. Hosted by Nikki Toyama-Szeto.

Special thanks to Fuller Theological Seminary, Christians for Social Action, and to Brenda Salter McNeill, whose book inspired the title of the show.

For more information, visit CredibleWitness.us.

Pastor and author Tara Beth Leach shares the story of her remarkable, turbulent tenure as the first female lead pastor of Pasadena First Church of the Nazarene (aka, PazNaz). In conversation with Nikki Toyama-Szeto, Tara Beth recounts her early call to ministry, navigating the complexities of breaking boundaries as the first female preacher or lead pastor in various congregational settings, enduring smear campaigns and deeply personal criticism, and shepherding a congregation through seasons of pain and hope.

She reflects on the sustaining grace she found through therapy, spiritual direction, supportive peers, and the vision of Jesus for the church—a vision she still clings to despite the hardships of social media attacks and attempts to undermine her ministry.

From redemptive ministry moments to the difficult decision to step away and return home to care for her family, Tara Beth’s story testifies to resilience, calling, and the belief that Jesus still believes in the church. This is a story of faith, perseverance, and a vision for a “beautiful mess” made whole in God’s love.

"I think Jesus believed in us then. And I think he still believes in us today."

• “It was as though one day I saw the world in black and white, and the next day I saw the world in color.”
• “I have often been either the only female voice, only female pastor, or the first.”
• “It took my breath away.”
• “I never went into ministry to talk about women in ministry… My passion is the mission of God.”
• “When women are held back in the church, the church limps along.”
• “One week later, we showed up and a third of the congregation was missing. Six hundred people are missing from the congregation.”
• “Clothes were distracting or not professional enough.”
• “It was soul crushing. It nearly knocked my legs out from underneath me.”
• “We want these children to experience the love of Christ until they are reunited with their family member.”
• “I think Jesus believed in us then. And I think he still believes in us today.”

• Tara Beth Leach (Website)
• Emboldened: A Vision for Empowering Women in Ministry by Tara Beth Leach
• Radiant Church: Restoring the Credibility of Our Witness by Tara Beth Leach
• Urban Strategies
• First Church of the Nazarene, Pasadena
• Good Shepherd Church, Naperville

Tara Beth Leach is an evangelical pastor and author of Emboldened: A Vision for Empowering Women in Ministry and Radiant Church: Restoring the Credibility of Our Witness. Since 2023, she has served as senior pastor of Good Shepherd Church in Naperville, Illinois. Her ministry has spanned local churches, national speaking, and advocacy for women in leadership.

Nikki Toyama-Szeto is Executive Director of Christians for Social Action and host of Credible Witness. She leads conversations at the intersection of faith, justice, and public life, drawing on decades of ministry experience in global and domestic contexts.

• Early life in a culturally Christian family; dramatic teenage conversion through Youth for Christ.
• “It was as though one day I saw the world in black and white, and the next day I saw the world in color.”
• Call to ministry at 16 without seeing women in pastoral roles.
• First female lead pastor of Pasadena First Church of the Nazarene (“PasNaz”), a flagship church in the denomination.
• National excitement and symbolic significance of her installation.
• Immediate loss of one-third of the congregation within a week.
• Harsh public opposition: social media attacks, open letters, and organized “Save PNA” campaign.
• Personal criticisms targeting voice, clothing, and appearance.
• “Clothes were distracting or not professional enough.”
• The redemptive ministry of fostering immigrant children through Urban Strategies.
• Sustaining faith through therapy, spiritual direction, and supportive ministry peers.
• Decision to leave to honor and care for her parents during illness.
• Verbatim quote: “It was soul crushing. It nearly knocked my legs out from underneath me.”
• Return to lead Good Shepherd Church, a community that knew and loved her.
• Vision for the church shaped by Jesus’s Sermon on the Mount and Revelation’s vision of the kingdom.
• “They are coming and they have gifts and they love Jesus and they love the church.”

Credible Witness is brought to you by the Rethinking Church Initiative. Produced and edited by Mark Labberton, Sarey Martin Concepcion and Evan Rosa. Hosted by Nikki Toyama-Szeto.

Special thanks to Fuller Theological Seminary, Christians for Social Action, and to Brenda Salter McNeill, whose book inspired the title of the show.

For more information, visit CredibleWitness.us.

What does it mean to be a credible witness to Christ in a world marked by racism, silence, and historical amnesia? In this profound and emotionally gripping conversation, historian and advocate Dr. Jemar Tisby joins host Nikki Toyama-Szeto to explore the intersection of faith, race, and historical memory.

From the haunting beauty of the Mississippi Delta’s cotton fields to the riverbank where Emmett Till's body was found, Tisby shows how place carries history—and how Christians are called to remember truthfully. He challenges a truncated vision of racial reconciliation and calls for courageous, justice-oriented discipleship rooted in history and community.

Tisby shares his personal journey through white evangelicalism, the Black church tradition, and a deeper encounter with Jesus that sustains his work. This episode is a call to courageous presence, anti-racist action, and radical hospitality. It’s a vision for church not just as a place of belonging, but of bold and truthful healing.

Racism persists not because of extremists—but because of the people who tolerate it.

1. “The most egregious acts of racism happen within a context of compromise.”
2. “There is no era where America was great in that sense that we can go back to.”
3. “We don't have a how-to problem. We have a want-to problem.”
4. “Racism persists not because of extremists—but because of the people who tolerate it.”
5. “To the extent I ever felt not welcomed, accepted, or had a place—it was because of race.”

Jemar Tisby is the author of The Color of Compromise and How to Fight Racism, and founder of The Witness: A Black Christian Collective. He is the host of Pass the Mic.

Nikki Toyama-Szeto is the host of Credible Witness, and is executive director of Christians for Social Action, equipping the church to pursue justice and follow Jesus in the tension of our times.

Listen to Jemar, Nikki, and Mark Labberton in the Introduction episode of Credible Witness, "Staying with Jesus When the Church’s Credibility Is at Stake."

• Growing up in the Midwest and discovering the importance of place in the South
• “The Delta is the most Southern place on earth.”
• Seeing cotton fields in bloom: beauty and horror intertwined
• Visiting the site where Emmett Till’s body was found
• “There’s a spirit haunting these places.”
• Encountering Fannie Lou Hamer and the transformative power of Black history
• “History has a weight to it because truth has a weight to it.”
• Writing The Color of Compromise out of deep anger and discovery
• The role of Christian compromise in sustaining racism
• “The most egregious acts of racism happen within a context of compromise.”
• The shallow vision of racial reconciliation in white evangelicalism
• “We don’t talk about race. That’s how race showed up.”
• Disillusionment with multiethnic churches and the post-Obama backlash
• The shift from reconciliation to racial justice as “what is owed”
• The ARC framework: Awareness, Relationships, Commitment
• Inspiration from the Black church tradition and the nearness of Jesus
• “Be strong and courageous—for I will be with you wherever you go.”

Jemar Tisby says: “We don't have a how-to problem, we have a want-to problem. That's it. Because I tell people all the time, listen, if I gave you five minutes, you could come up with a list of a dozen things, really helpful things that we could do to fight racism and create more equity. That's not the issue of how. How to is not the issue. The issue is: Will you do that? Are you willing to do that? Are you willing to make the sacrifices, to confront your fear and push through it, to risk losing community, straining relationships, changing jobs, losing money—all of that stuff that goes with the work of justice?”

Credible Witness is brought to you by the Rethinking Church Initiative. Produced and edited by Mark Labberton, Sarey Martin Concepcion and Evan Rosa. Hosted by Nikki Toyama-Szeto.

Special thanks to Fuller Theological Seminary, Christians for Social Action, and to Brenda Salter McNeill, whose book inspired the title of the show.

For more information, visit CredibleWitness.us.

In the premiere episode of Credible Witness, host Nikki Toyama-Szeto is joined by theologian and public historian Jemar Tisby and pastor and scholar Mark Labberton to explore how the witness of the church has become compromised—and what might restore its credibility. Reflecting on five years of candid, challenging conversation among diverse Christian leaders during the wake of George Floyd’s murder and rising Christian nationalism, the three discuss the soul-searching, disillusionment, and hope that emerged.

Together, they examine the cultural fractures, theological tensions, and moral failures that have pushed many to extremes, elevating strident voices as an increased number of people to leave the church.

They articulate the mission and vision of Credible Witness, testify to a persistent hope in Jesus and the power of honest community, face painful truths, and imagine a church that more truly reflects the love, justice, and mercy of God.

Key Moments

1. “We absolutely get that… but we’re still on board with Jesus. And Jesus has always been with us and hasn’t left us.”
2. “This isn’t about leaving Jesus. This is about following Jesus.”
3. “We’ve got a better story to tell.”
4. “It was the church that was putting the church at risk.”
5. “The church has a reputation in the United States… and not a good one by and large.”

About the Contributors

Nikki Toyama-Szeto is the host of Credible Witness, and is executive director of Christians for Social Action, equipping the church to pursue justice and follow Jesus in the tension of our times.

Jemar Tisby is the author of The Color of Compromise and How to Fight Racism, and founder of The Witness: A Black Christian Collective. He is the host of Pass the Mic.

Mark Labberton is a pastor, author, and former president of Fuller Seminary, known for his prophetic voice on faith, justice, and the credibility of the church. He is host of the podcast Conversing.

• “This isn’t about leaving Jesus. This is about following Jesus.” —Jemar Tisby
• Nikki introduces Credible Witness as a space for honest stories of faith amid moral complexity and social tension
• Mark recalls the origins of the conversation in summer 2020: COVID-19, George Floyd, church division, and racial injustice
• Jemar Tisby clarifies the mission for imagining a more credible Christian witness
• Nikki reflects on trust-building in a space that welcomed “tricky truths” and honesty without pretense
• The group’s five-year journey begins as a short experiment but grows into a lasting community of deep discernment
• “We weren’t trying to replicate any harm.” —Jemar Tisby
• The group names white Christian nationalism and silence on injustice as threats to the church’s credibility
• Ephesians 2 and the power of “coming together of the unlikes” as a witness to the resurrection
• “It was the church that was putting the gospel at risk.” —Mark Labberton
• Nikki explains how church neutrality began to speak volumes: “Choosing silence was actually a loud voice.”
• Discussion on the failure of integrity: “Too many things in isolation” eroded credibility
• Jemar highlights story as central to public theology: “We’ve got a better story to tell.”
• The group wrestles with algorithmic distortion and toxic digital narratives shaping Christian identity
• “Not just message, but embodiment”: The church’s credibility depends on lived ethics, not just theological claims
• Mark emphasizes self-examination: “Are we credible?”
• Dissonance and disagreement as gifts: “What kept people in the room was the gift of dissonance.” —Nikki Toyama-Szeto
• Jemar recalls moments of tension over how to prioritize justice issues while remaining unified in Christ
• The group’s diversity as a deliberate strategy: different traditions, backgrounds, and responsibilities within the church
• Nikki names divine timing: the conversation is more urgent now than when it began
• “We’re not all supposed to be the same... That’s how everything gets covered.” —Jemar Tisby
• Mark frames the church’s failure as internal implosion—not external threat
• “Why is the church seemingly so unchanged?” —Mark Labberton
• Nikki describes how marginalized voices carry wisdom for the way forward
• Jemar articulates the podcast’s goal: a mirror and a window for listeners to see both themselves and the larger church
• Nikki closes with an invitation to slow down and listen generously: “Pull up a chair...”

Credible Witness is brought to you by the Rethinking Church Initiative. Produced and edited by Mark Labberton, Sarey Martin Concepcion and Evan Rosa. Hosted by Nikki Toyama-Szeto.

Special thanks to Fuller Theological Seminary, Christians for Social Action, and to Brenda Salter McNeill, whose book inspired the title of the show.

For more information, visit CredibleWitness.us.

Join host Nikki Toyama-Szeto in the premiere season of Credible Witness, a new podcast diving into the faithful lives of Christians. Each Monday, hear stories from diverse voices in the Christian community as they discuss the challenges and beauty of living out Christian faith in today’s world. The podcast aims to address the church's struggle with assimilation and cultural imitation, presenting an authentic, radically loving vision of Christianity. With guests ranging from pastors to everyday believers, each episode offers a unique perspective on faithfulness and the courage to listen.

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Subscribe now for a new podcast that listens closely to the faithful lives of Christians, asking hard questions about what it means to be a credible church today. The complicated questions, the painful questions, the profound yet beautiful questions. The questions we're sometimes afraid to even ask, let alone answer.

I'm Nikki Toyama-Szeto, and this is Credible Witness.

In this inaugural season, every Monday will feature stories, perspectives, and wisdom from people wrestling with. Bearing witness to the credibility of Christian life in the United States.

Throughout its history, the church has faced a near constant temptation to assimilate, to imitate, and to capitalize on the dominant powers of the world.

This is no less true today as implausible versions of Christianity grow. Often it's the church that most undermines faith by copying culture rather than following Jesus. This diminishes the credibility of the gospel and reveals a failure of Christian moral imagination in action.

Jesus came to redefine reality marked by a shockingly radical love, an act of justice for the vulnerable, a communal imagination that offers hope, joy, justice, and common flourishing.

The church is meant to be a credible witness to this living reality.

Each episode of the podcast is an invitation to journey with one person as they share their story of Christian faithfulness in their own words from their own context in light of all that their life includes. We hear from pastors, leaders, scholars, and everyday believers from different Christian denominations, social locations, gender, geography, ethnicity, and political views. Some stories emerge from joy and enduring hope. Others are shaped by deep pain, hurt, and struggle. All of them bear credible witness to Christ in ways both ordinary and extraordinary.

Each voice reminds us that the church is not a fixed institution. It's a living relational body, still becoming still beloved, not through just one cultural lens, but through many. Together an alternative to the echo chambers that divide us. Each guest challenges us to listen bravely and recognize our own blind spots, especially those that divert the church from showing itself as God's new humanity by the power of the Holy Spirit this is credible witness. finding stories of faithfulness and the courage to listen.

Episodes Drop Mondays starting July 28th. Subscribe now wherever you listen to podcasts.

Credible Witness is brought to you by the Rethinking Church Initiative. For more information, visit crediblewitness.us.

Credible Witness is brought to you by the Rethinking Church Initiative. Produced and edited by Mark Labberton, Sarey Martin Concepcion and Evan Rosa. Hosted by Nikki Toyama-Szeto.

Special thanks to Fuller Theological Seminary, Christians for Social Action, and to Brenda Salter McNeill, whose book inspired the title of the show.

For more information, visit CredibleWitness.us.