Credible Witness

How might God use the rediscovery of one’s cultural and ancestral roots to form a more faithful, whole-bodied expression of Christian worship and identity?

"You need to press into the fullness of who God made you to be."

In this episode, Kenny Wallace shares his experience as a Black man reclaiming the fullness of his identity, incorporating his heritage as a son of a Choctaw mother, a Pawnee father, and ancestors who endured enslavement. Kenny describes how recovering Indigenous ceremony, African American resilience, music, and embodied worship has become central to his Christian faith. Through stories of ancestral songs, naming traditions, feathers found on prayer walks, Revelation 21’s vision of worship from every nation, and his ministry at Mosaic Intercultural Church of London, Kenny paints a vivid picture of what it means to worship with all five senses—mind, body, culture, and community. His experience challenges the truncated, cerebral forms of Western Christianity and opens wide the invitation to worship with the fullness of who we are. Grounded in scripture, guided by Indigenous Christian elders, and animated by hope, Kenny offers a compelling witness to God’s reconciling work across cultures and generations.

Key Moments

1. “My ancestors were brought over from Benet and Togo as slaves to the US, and they were told they couldn’t speak their language or play their music. But still, in spite of all of that, there was a vibrant faith and hope that God would carry us through.”
2. “There was this resilience that came through the trials and tribulations of slavery—this connection to God and His power and His provision for us—that was passed down through the generations.”
3. “You need to press into the fullness of who God made you to be. You need to press into what it means to be an African American and a Choctaw man.”
4. “When I read Revelation 21 and understood what was going on, my heart was like: this is why You’ve written my story. This is why You’ve had me go through this path to understand who I am—because You want this in worship.”
5. “There are aspects within my culture, and within your culture, that need to be used to glorify God. You need me, and I need you.”
6. “Liturgy is the work of the people. If you come in here, you’re going to work—you’re going to worship the Lord with the fullness of who you are.”

About the Contributors

Kenny Wallace is a musician, dancer, worship leader, and scholar holding a doctorate in worship studies. A man of African American, Choctaw, and Pawnee heritage, Kenny’s ministry centers on embodied worship, intercultural reconciliation, and honoring Creator God through the fullness of cultural expression. He serves at Mosaic Intercultural Church of London in Ontario, teaches across North America, and brings gifts of song, dance, prayer, and artistry wherever he travels.

Nikki Toyama-Szeto is the Executive Director of Christians for Social Action and host of Credible Witness. She writes and speaks globally on justice, discipleship, and the credibility of Christian public witness. Through CSA, she equips leaders and communities to engage the world’s complexities with courage, humility, and hope.

Episode Outline

• Kenny recalls ancestral spirituals: “hold on just a little while longer… everything will be all right.”
• Embraces African American, Choctaw, and Pawnee ancestry as a gift from God, reclaiming what racism tried to erase.
• Explains “Creator” as Yahweh, the Supreme Being present in daily life and creation.
• Receives a prophetic call: “press into the fullness of who God made you to be.”
• Confronts resistance: “we’re just playing Indian… you need to go somewhere else.”
• Rooted in Christian Scripture as the guide for discerning what honors God.
• Guided by Indigenous Christian elders: Terry LeBlanc, Randy Woodley, Casey Church, Richard Twiss.
• Revelation 21 reshapes his theological imagination—every culture brings its required “tribute of worship” (doxa).
• Family moves from caution to pride, celebrating Kwanzaa and learning Indigenous practices.
• Embodied worship activates all five senses: sacred medicines, dance, movement, sight, sound, and smell.
• Critiques Western worship’s truncation toward “just the mind” and sermon-centered services.
• Describes Mosaic Intercultural Church’s full-participation liturgy: “the work of the people.”
• Demonstrates reconciliation embodied in his own ancestry—Choctaw slaveholding history reconciled with African American lineage.
• Witnesses cross-cultural joy: Dutch CRC congregants dancing behind him in worship.
• Ends with a Cherokee morning prayer-song inviting all creation into worship.

Indigenous Christian Worship And Cultural Identity

• Kenny recalls ancestral spirituals: “hold on just a little while longer… everything will be all right,” grounding worship in African American resilience.
• Describes reclaiming heritage as African American, Choctaw, and Pawnee as an act of Christian wholeness.
• Frames “Creator” as Yahweh present in creation, consistent with Indigenous Christian theology.
• Shares the prophetic call: “press into the fullness of who God made you to be.”

Reclaiming Heritage and Overcoming Resistance

• Confronts church pushback including the painful remark, “we’re just playing Indian… you need to go somewhere else.”
• Describes using Scripture as discernment while honoring Indigenous elders like Terry LeBlanc, Randy Woodley, Casey Church, and Richard Twiss.
• Highlights the importance of Christian contextualization for Indigenous believers.

Revelation 21 and Multicultural Christian Worship

• Revelation 21 reshapes his imagination: every culture brings its “tribute of worship” (doxa) into the New Jerusalem.
• Sees his cultural gifts as required offerings before God, not optional embellishments.
• Connects the vision of heaven with present-day worship: “Your will be done on Earth as it is in heaven.”

Embodied Worship and the Five Senses

• Calls out Western Christianity’s truncation of worship to “just the mind” and sermon-centered services.
• Teaches embodied worship through movement, dance, sight, smell, and sound, using sacred medicines such as sweetgrass and cedar.
• Notes that dance, spinning, and physical movement are biblical acts of worship.

Intercultural Church and Community Formation

• Mosaic Intercultural Church’s liturgy welcomes diverse peoples through participation, movement, and communal response.
• Emphasizes liturgy as “the work of the people,” not a performance.
• Describes post-service community life lasting hours as an extension of worship.

Reconciliation Through Ancestry and Story

• Reflects on the painful history of Choctaw slaveholding intersecting with his African American lineage.
• Embodies reconciliation within his own ancestry: “if it can happen in me… surely we can work this out.”
• Invites worship that honors God-given cultural fingerprints in every community.

Cross-Cultural Worship and Hope for the Church

• Dutch CRC leaders dance behind him during worship, offering a glimpse of Revelation’s multi-ethnic kingdom.
• Encourages Christians to discover how Creator placed gifts in their cultures, not just his.
• Closes with a Cherokee morning song inviting all creation into worship.

Indigenous Identity, Ancestral Resilience, and Christian Hope

“From the African American side, from the black side. My ancestors were brought over from Benin and Togo. Okay. as slaves. To the US and they were told that they can't speak their language, they can't play their music, they said, in order to be good Christians, you have to sit in the balcony and ask permission from the masses to go use the bathroom.

But still, in spite of all of that, there was a vibrant faith and hope that God would carry us through. That resilience that came through the, the trials and tribulations, that was slavery, right?

That connection to God and his power and his provision for us, that's something that was passed down through the generations.”

Cultural Restoration, Church Resistance, and the Cost of Wholeness

“And so I began doing what he said. He said, learn as much as possible. So I went to Uncle Google and Auntie YouTube and started learning as much as I could. and then eventually started, engaging with. People from various places… and what I found was that as I began to try to bring that into the church, initially there was. This question? what, what is happening? Oh, that's just Kenny's thing. Like he's…and one of the places where I served, I actually had someone tell me, we're just playing Indian. You need to go somewhere where we're not just playing Indian… And it was painful. It was like, I am not trust, just trying to play at something. Like I'm actually trying to teach you that there are aspects within my culture, but also within your culture that are, need to be used to glorify God and you need me and I need you.”

Revelation 21, Cultural Tribute, and Worship in the New Creation

“I was reading Revelation 21 and, it was describing the new Jerusalem, the Holy City, and it talked about the kings and the nations were bringing in their, in, in English it says their glories, but the word in Greek is doxa. And that's where we get doxology from. That's where we get worship from, right?

And so all of these different kings and nations were bringing in their worship. Which, if you're looking at it and you're just like, well, why didn't he just say, a king or whatever? No, these was a specific requirement that was brought in as tribute from every culture… my heart was like. This is why you've written my story. This is why you've had me go through this circuitous path to understanding who I am… because you want this in worship. You are requiring this from me.”

Production Credits

Credible Witness is brought to you by the Rethinking Church Initiative. Hosted by Nikki Toyama-Szeto. Produced by Mark Labberton, Sarey Martin Concepción, and Evan Rosa

Special Thanks to Our Partners for This Episode

Arrabon: Cultivating communities of healing and reconciliation. To learn more, visit arrabon.com

Missio Alliance: Providing a place for the Church to address today’s cultural challenges. To learn more, visit www.missioalliance.org

Credible Witness is brought to you by the Rethinking Church Initiative. Produced and edited by Mark Labberton, Sarey Martin Concepcion and Evan Rosa. Hosted by Nikki Toyama-Szeto.

Special thanks to Fuller Theological Seminary, Christians for Social Action, and to Brenda Salter McNeill, whose book inspired the title of the show.

For more information, visit CredibleWitness.us.

What if the pain we carry, the power we share, and the bridges we build are all the Spirit’s way of healing the church?

“We’re familia. We’re a family, and we love each other. The Spirit flows between us back and forth.”

Rev. Dr. Alexia Salvatierra—pastor, organizer, and academic dean of Centro Latino at Fuller Theological Seminary—joins host Nikki Toyama-Szeto for a luminous conversation about bridge-building, intergenerational love, and the transforming work of the Holy Spirit.

Drawing from her decades of leadership in faith-rooted organizing, immigration reform, and accompaniment of marginalized communities, Salvatierra tells stories from the Puentes Collective of young Hispanic leaders navigating faith, identity, and pain.

Together they explore power sharing, healing from internalized colonialism, and the vocation of those who live between cultures. What if pain itself could become liberation’s instrument? What if the vitality of small storefront churches could reshape global Christianity? Salvatierra’s vision is not of a church to be rethought, but a church to be seen—vital, collective, and alive in the Spirit.

Key Moments

“We’re familia. We’re a family, and we love each other. The Spirit flows between us back and forth.”

“I killed people. How am I gonna judge you? All I know is the love of Christ. Christ does not love me more than you.”

“That very torn, code-switching place is such a place from which you can heal the church.”

“It doesn’t need to be rethought—it needs to be accompanied.”

“Our young people are working with orthopathos—the use of suffering for liberation.”

About the Contributors
Rev. Dr. Alexia Salvatierra is Academic Dean of the Centro Latino and Assistant Professor of Integral Mission and Global Transformation at Fuller Theological Seminary. A Lutheran pastor, scholar, and community organizer, she co-authored Faith-Rooted Organizing: Mobilizing the Church in Service to the World. Her ministry has catalyzed movements for immigration reform and economic justice, including the New Sanctuary Movement, Evangelical Immigration Table, and Matthew 25/Mateo 25 Network.

Faith-Rooted Organizing: Mobilizing the Church in Service to the World
https://www.ivpress.com/faith-rooted-organizing

Centro Latino at Fuller Theological Seminary
https://www.fuller.edu/academics/centro-latino/

New Sanctuary Movement
https://www.newsanctuarynyc.org/

Evangelical Immigration Table
https://evangelicalimmigrationtable.com/

Nikki Toyama-Szeto is the executive director of Christians for Social Action and host of Credible Witness. Her leadership amplifies marginalized voices and equips the church for faithful public engagement in pursuit of justice, mercy, and love.

Christians for Social Action
https://www.iamccda.org/nikki-toyama-szeto/

Roots and Calling

Alexia Salvatierra describes growing up in a socialist, anti-religious family and finding faith through the Jesus Movement.

Identifies as “Luther-costal,” blending liberation theology, evangelical commitment, and charismatic spirituality.

“All the way through my ministry, I’ve been called to the intersection between the church and the world.”

Faith-Rooted Organizing and Justice Movements

Formed by the sanctuary movement for Central American refugees, the farm-worker movement, and the pro-democracy campaign against Marcos.

Co-founded the New Sanctuary Movement, Evangelical Immigration Table, and the Matthew 25 / Mateo 25 Network.

Co-author of Faith-Rooted Organizing—an alternative model deeply grounded in the gospel.

The Bridge Builders—Puentes Collective

Bilingual, bicultural Hispanic millennials serving as bridges between immigrant and non-immigrant churches.

“They’re not just finding bridges—they’re becoming the bridge.”

Created the Puentes Network to empower leadership and research theological education and church revitalization.

Intergenerational Power Sharing

Conflict between older and younger activists during pandemic economic-justice debates leads to deeper love.

“Even those of our young people who’ve left the church haven’t really left, because we’re family.”

Structures justice by ensuring Puentes have “power, not just voice.”

Stories of Vital Communities

A queer Puente finds healing in a Pentecostal church that welcomes her and her trans partner.

Pastor Ruben Nuno: “I killed people. How am I gonna judge you? All I know is the love of Christ.”

“They find Jesus and they find healing.”

Familia, Faith, and Transformation

Story of the Molina family—Renee Sr. and Jr.—demonstrating intergenerational trust, conflict, and love in Hispanic congregations.

“He walked through fire, and the fire of the Holy Spirit is in him. I warm myself at that fire.”

Pain, Suffering, and Liberation

All Puentes experience deep pain holding multiple worlds and identities.

“The story is positive, deeply positive—but there is this really deep pain.”

“Our young people are working with orthopathos—the use of suffering for liberation.”

The Holy Spirit and Healing

Integrating trauma and resilience through ecstatic worship and communal healing.

“Praise is medicine for the soul.”

“We trust the Spirit—and that helps.”

Identity as Vocation

“That torn place between worlds is where you can heal the church.”

Puentes called to revitalize both multicultural and Spanish-speaking congregations.

Rethinking—or Accompanying—the Church

Salvatierra challenges the premise of “rethinking church.”

“Our churches are vital—they don’t need to be rethought; they need to be accompanied.”

Calls for visibility of Hispanic congregations’ vitality and Spirit-filled life.

Power, Colonialism, and Sharing Authority

Diagnoses internalized colonialism as “the wounds of power over.”

Advocates “power with”—collective, fluid, relational leadership.

“We have to heal these internalized wounds.”

Intersectionality and Depth

Warns against the “thinness” of doing everything superficially.

“Not check-the-boxes work—but deeper, more powerful, choreographed work.”

Envisions global dialogue on reshaping and re-dancing the church in the Spirit.

Conversational Arc

1. Early life in anti-religious family; conversion through the Jesus Movement.
2. Ministry formation in sanctuary, farm-worker, and pro-democracy movements.
3. Creation of Faith-Rooted Organizing model.
4. Emergence of Puentes Collective bridging immigrant and non-immigrant churches.
5. Intergenerational power-sharing conflict resolved through love.
6. Story of queer Puente welcomed into Pentecostal community.
7. Molina family: intergenerational transformation and mutual honor.
8. Recognition of communal pain and Holy Spirit-led resilience.
9. Identity as vocation: healing from the margins.
10. From “rethinking church” to “accompanying church,” sharing power and re-dancing together.

Production Credits
Credible Witness is brought to you by the Rethinking Church Initiative. Hosted by Nikki Toyama-Szeto. Produced by Mark Labberton, Sarey Martin Concepción, and Evan Rosa.

Credible Witness is brought to you by the Rethinking Church Initiative. Produced and edited by Mark Labberton, Sarey Martin Concepcion and Evan Rosa. Hosted by Nikki Toyama-Szeto.

Special thanks to Fuller Theological Seminary, Christians for Social Action, and to Brenda Salter McNeill, whose book inspired the title of the show.

For more information, visit CredibleWitness.us.

What can the Church learn from the 500-year tradition of Latino Christian justice and the way in invited all cultural treasure and wealth into the beloved community?

“When my students heard that Christ suffered outside the gate, it’s like the blinders fall down and there is deep, profound encounter with God.”

UCLA professor, pastor, and author Robert Chao Romero sits down with Nikki Toyama-Szeto to share his story of faith, identity, and justice. From his Mexican and Chinese roots to his experiences of exclusion growing up in Los Angeles, Romero reflects on his journey of finding belonging in Christ and in the church. His groundbreaking book Brown Church uncovers a 500-year history of Latino Christian justice, from Antonio de Montesinos’s 1511 sermon against colonialism to today’s movements for immigration reform and racial equity.

Romero challenges the dichotomy that faith and justice cannot coexist, insisting that true Christianity embraces both. Together, he and Toyama-Szeto explore themes of cultural treasure, the metaphor of Christ outside the gate, and the future of a diverse church that welcomes all identities into God’s beloved community.

1. “So for all those young Latinos who wrestle with, how do I reconcile faith in Jesus with caring about justice and Latino culture, I say, welcome to the Brown Church.”
2. “Jesus becomes irresistible when we embrace both of the wings of the plane—personal faith and justice.”
3. “When my students heard that Christ suffered outside the gate, it’s like the blinders fall down and there is deep, profound encounter with God.”
4. “We need all the glory to glorify God. And unfortunately what’s happened is that many ethnic communities have been forced to leave their glory outside the city gates.”
5. “The Brown Church does not exist for the sake of the Brown Church…but as a distinct entry point into the beloved community of all.”

Robert Chao Romero is associate professor in the UCLA César E. Chávez Department of Chicana/o and Central American Studies and in the Department of Asian American Studies. Holding a PhD in Latin American history from UCLA and a JD from UC Berkeley, he is the author of Brown Church and other works on immigration, race, history, and Christianity. Romero is also an attorney, pastor, and co-director of the Brown Church Institute, dedicated to exploring the intersection of faith, justice, and identity in multicultural communities.

Nikki Toyama-Szeto is the host of Credible Witness and executive director of Christians for Social Action. She leads conversations at the intersection of faith and justice, highlighting diverse voices that witness to the credibility of the gospel in contemporary society.

• Robert Chao Romero reflects on Latino identity, faith, and justice through his book Brown Church
• Experiences of racism in 1970s–80s Los Angeles shaped his search for belonging and identity
• Family heritage: Chinese grandparents fleeing persecution in China, Mexican immigrant father, roots in Latino and Chinese churches
• Law school crisis and encounter with Jesus transformed his life’s direction
• Calling to bring together academic research and pastoral ministry into integrated vocation
• “I’m tired of leaving two thirds of myself outside the academic door when I do research and teaching.”
• Discovery of Antonio de Montesinos’s 1511 racial justice sermon in Hispaniola
• Theologians like Gustavo Gutiérrez (A Theology of Liberation), René Padilla, and Samuel Escobar shaped holistic gospel mission
• Christ “outside the gate” metaphor resonates deeply with Latino students facing exclusion
• Revelation 21 and the glory and honor of nations as cultural treasures offered to God
• The Brown Church as both a theological tradition and a model of belonging
• “Jesus becomes irresistible when we embrace both of the wings of the plane—personal faith and justice.”
• Beloved community as the ultimate goal: all tribes, languages, peoples, and nations welcomed

Credible Witness is brought to you by the Rethinking Church Initiative. Produced and edited by Mark Labberton, Sarey Martin Concepcion and Evan Rosa. Hosted by Nikki Toyama-Szeto.

Special thanks to Fuller Theological Seminary, Christians for Social Action, and to Brenda Salter McNeill, whose book inspired the title of the show.

For more information, visit CredibleWitness.us.

How can Evangelicalism today reclaim its gospel identity through love, hospitality, justice, and comprehensive good news?

“I think anything other than that is an impoverished gospel.”

Pastor Walter Kim, president of the National Association of Evangelicals, joins host Nikki Toyama-Szeto on Credible Witness to wrestle with the future of evangelicalism. From Luke 4’s vision of Jesus’s inaugural message—”The Spirit of the Lord is upon me …”—Kim reclaims the gospel as comprehensive. It is meant for transforming individuals, communities, institutions, and systems.

He reflects on his immigrant journey, the gift of hospitality, raising a daughter with Down syndrome, and his deep longing for the church to embody “all of Jesus for all of life.” Alongside sobering reflections on spiritual poverty in the American church, Kim shares hopeful stories of holistic community transformation in Boston, Charlottesville, and Malawi.

With honesty and empathy, he calls Christians to move beyond ideological “whack-a-mole” and into a witness shaped by hospitality, solidarity, repentance, and joy. For Kim, this is not just about evangelical identity—it’s about reclaiming the credibility of Christian witness in a fractured world.

• Walter Kim’s immigrant background and early encounters with Christian hospitality
• Reflections on Korean American church life, belonging, and faith formation
• Diverse ministry contexts: Yale, Vancouver, Boston, and Charlottesville
• Story of his daughter with Down syndrome and discovering holistic gospel in Malawi
• Contrast of economic prosperity vs. spiritual poverty in America
• Evangelicalism’s “identity crisis” and politicization
• Critique of “ideological whack-a-mole” and fear-driven church witness
• Rethinking evangelicalism through multicultural expressions of faith
• Personal story of racial vulnerability with a friend in Charlottesville
• Vision of a comprehensive gospel shaped by empathy, hospitality, and delight

• Luke 4:18–19
• National Association of Evangelicals
• Christianity Today
• World Relief
• Regent College
• Park Street Church, Boston
• Public Faith by Miroslav Volf

Walter Kim is president of the National Association of Evangelicals, serves on the boards of Christianity Today and World Relief, and has pastored churches in Boston, Vancouver, and Charlottesville. He previously served as a chaplain at Yale University. As a Korean American and son of immigrant parents, he brings a global and deeply personal perspective to questions of Christian witness and evangelical identity.

Nikki Toyama-Szeto is executive director of Christians for Social Action and host of Credible Witness. She leads conversations at the intersection of faith, justice, and culture, inviting guests to share wisdom from their lived experience of discipleship and social engagement.

• Walter Kim on Jesus’s Luke 4 inauguration speech defining the gospel
• “I think anything other than that is an impoverished gospel.”
• Holistic gospel: personal salvation and systemic transformation
• Evangelical identity crisis and demographic shifts in the U.S.
• Immigrant church growth and Boston’s revival through global Christianity
• Story of Kim’s daughter with Down syndrome speaking in Malawi
• Contrast between economic and spiritual poverty
• Evangelicalism’s entanglement with politics and fear-driven witness
• “Ideological whack-a-mole” and cultural antagonism
• Learning from Asian American expressions of honor/shame in evangelism
• Hospitality, belonging, and community across ministry contexts
• Racial vulnerability, friendship, and solidarity in Charlottesville
• Recovering joy and delight as a vision of God’s love
• Examples of holistic community transformation in Boston and Charlottesville
• Vision for evangelical renewal rooted in repentance, empathy, and comprehensive gospel

Credible Witness is brought to you by the Rethinking Church Initiative. Produced and edited by Mark Labberton, Sarey Martin Concepcion and Evan Rosa. Hosted by Nikki Toyama-Szeto.

Special thanks to Fuller Theological Seminary, Christians for Social Action, and to Brenda Salter McNeill, whose book inspired the title of the show.

For more information, visit CredibleWitness.us.

How can Black brilliance and joy help the whole church reimagine faithful witness to the Gospel, and flourishing through courage, resilience, and data.

In this episode, Rev. Dr. Brianna Parker reflects on the meaning of Black brilliance and joy, rooted in the tenacity, creativity, and faith of Black communities. Rev. Bri is a researcher, preacher, and leader committed to catalyzing change in the Black church. From childhood experiences of being called to preach in a church that didn’t welcome women in ministry, to navigating toxic church environments early in her career, Brianna shares how her faith, resilience, and refusal to accept “no” shaped her calling.

She highlights the transformative power of data in ministry, the urgent need for joy in Black communities, and the role of the Black church in nurturing gifts, providing safety, and sustaining hope. Through stories of perseverance, authenticity, and innovation, Brianna paints a vision of the Black church as a place of flourishing and brilliance—an indispensable gift to Christianity and the world.

Key Moments

1. “Black brilliance is like finding our way, when no one has made a way.”
2. “Every day is opposite day for me, and it’s really a faith thing more than it is confidence.”
3. “I am Black and brilliant because I looked at an area nobody else cared about.”
4. “Black joy is when you can be a 200-something pound Black man, maybe with locks in your hair and frolic.”
5. “What does it look like to have a place where people can flourish?”

About the Contributors

Rev. Dr. Brianna K. Parker (Rev. Bri) is a faith leader, scholar, and data activist. She is CEO of Black Millennial Café, LLC (BMC), a consulting practice and data resource center for Black churches, communities, and organizations. She served as the lead researcher for Barna Group’s State of the Black Church study and creator of the first-of-its-kind ministry development subscription program, BlackChurchLeader.com. Through the Black Millennial Café, Rev. Bri intentionally gathers data for understanding and transformation of Black communities. She lectures and presents empirical data on faith and Black communities concerns nationwide. BMC resources include commissioned data and a suite of services for churches and organizations interested in faith or social impact. She is the author of I Still Believe in the Black Church and a sought-after voice on the intersections of faith, culture, and community innovation.

Nikki Toyama-Szeto is Executive Director of Christians for Social Action and host of Credible Witness, a podcast amplifying faithful voices navigating complexity, courage, and hope.

Show Notes

• Brianna Parker’s early calling to ministry and visions at age 15
• Sister Dixon’s encouragement: “Brianna, you can be Oprah, you can be an astronaut, you can be a president”
• Struggles as a woman called to preach in spaces that didn’t affirm women in ministry
• “Every day is opposite day for me, and it’s really a faith thing more than it is confidence”
• Defining Black brilliance as finding a way where none exists
• Stories of Black brilliance: Amanda Gorman’s inauguration poem; valedictorian walking to graduation in St. Louis
• Data as ministry: Parker’s work founding Black Millennial Café (BMC)
• “I am Black and brilliant because I looked at an area nobody else cared about”
• Black joy as more than happiness—frolicking, freedom, and flourishing
• Authenticity vs. transparency in church leadership
• Rethinking church after toxic ministry experiences
• “What does it look like to have a place where people can flourish? That’s human flourishing”
• The Black church as a safe, unique space of nurture and resilience
• Brianna Parker’s book: I Still Believe in the Black Church
• Work of psychologist Thema Bryant on Black self-care

Credible Witness is brought to you by the Rethinking Church Initiative. Produced and edited by Mark Labberton, Sarey Martin Concepcion and Evan Rosa. Hosted by Nikki Toyama-Szeto.

Special thanks to Fuller Theological Seminary, Christians for Social Action, and to Brenda Salter McNeill, whose book inspired the title of the show.

For more information, visit CredibleWitness.us.

Will the church live its peculiar, Jesus-centered identity?

In this episode, Presbyterian minister and former Fuller Seminary president Mark Labberton joins Nikki Toyama-Szeto to wrestle with the urgent question: Will the church live its true identity? Reflecting on his ministry in Berkeley among “cultured despisers,” his pastoral experience during the AIDS crisis of the ‘80s and ‘90s, and his convening of the Rethinking Church Initiative, Labberton describes the church as a “peculiar community”—one that must embody love, justice, and mercy across difference. Together, Nikki and Mark explore the scandal of the church’s self-delusion, the urgent need for public credibility, and the role of imagination, curiosity, and presence in cultivating transformative communities. Labberton insists the church is meant to be God’s chief apologetic in the world: a living witness of Christ’s love across cultures, identities, and divides.

Key Moments

• "I was just amazed at how the thing that cracked open the universe was Jesus' teaching of the kingdom of God."
• "Many people not in the church want to believe, but they find that the church is one of the great hurdles."
• "Yeah, those are my people." (on Schleiermacher’s “cultured despisers”)
• "Aren't we all?" (Berkeley art store clerk to Mark’s question)
• "How dare you? How dare you? How dare you? How dare you. In 42 different directions."
• "I began to even more deeply grieve… the way that the church shoots itself in the foot or discredits the gospel by its own doing."
• "It underscored the essential risk of moving out of our comfort zones and into new places of hopefully love and mercy and support."
• "To me, the issue at stake is really, will the church live its identity?"
• "Why would I not wanna live or lead in a world where those realities are at hand almost every day?"
• "The urgency for me continues to be the way the church is meant to be God's chief apologetic… God's plan A, and there is no plan B."

About the Contributors

Mark Labberton is a Presbyterian minister and served as president of Fuller Seminary from 2013–2022. Previously, he was pastor of First Presbyterian Church of Berkeley, California. He is the author of The Dangerous Act of Worship and a leader in rethinking the church’s mission of love, justice, and credible witness in today’s world. Listen to his weekly podcast, Conversing.

Nikki Toyama-Szeto is Executive Director of Christians for Social Action, where she works with leaders from across sectors to catalyze faith into action for justice. She hosts Credible Witness and writes widely on the intersection of faith, justice, and global engagement.

Show Notes

• Mark Labberton on growing up outside church, early skepticism, and finding Jesus’s radical, inclusive vision of community
• “Cultured despisers” (Friedrich Schleiermacher) and their relevance today
• “The church is meant to be God’s chief apologetic… God’s plan A, and there is no plan B.”
• “I’m looking for something that might not exist.” “Aren’t we all?”,
• Imaginary Berkeley pulpit protestors demanding “How dare you?”
• The AIDS crisis: national church rhetoric vs. local pastoral presence in hospices
• The Dangerous Act of Worship — Labberton’s book exploring tension, suffering, and faithful witness
• The scandal of small-making, self-delusion, and cultural captivity in the church
• Identity question: Will the church live out its peculiar Jesus-centered identity as a community?
• Cultivating curiosity: listening to Uber drivers, hearing hidden immigrant and racialized stories
• Convening the Rethinking Church Initiative: rethinking beyond institutional boundaries and holding space for diverse experiences of Christianity
• Honest collisions of revival vs. planning, institutional vs. independent voices
• The “beautiful mess” of diverse community and discipleship
• Jesus’s question “What would Jesus do?” reclaimed as true Christian discernment
• The urgency of living identity, embodying justice, enemy love, and sacrificial action

Credible Witness is brought to you by the Rethinking Church Initiative. Produced and edited by Mark Labberton, Sarey Martin Concepcion and Evan Rosa. Hosted by Nikki Toyama-Szeto.

Special thanks to Fuller Theological Seminary, Christians for Social Action, and to Brenda Salter McNeill, whose book inspired the title of the show.

For more information, visit CredibleWitness.us.

"You can only be loved to the extent that you are known."

Santiago “Jimmy” Mellado’s story stretches across borders, identities, and vocations. Born in El Salvador to adventurous parents, raised across continents, and educated in American schools, Jimmy longed for belonging—even if it meant leaving Santiago behind. An Olympic decathlete and later president of the Willow Creek Association, Mellado found himself at the center of the American church, but haunted by the quiet whisper: “That’s not you. Why are you running away from who I created you to be?” In this conversation with Nikki Toyama-Szeto, Mellado reflects on the journey of embracing his full name, heritage, and calling. He recounts powerful stories of instability turned to faith, of finding home in Jesus, of rethinking church, and of serving as CEO of Compassion International. Ultimately, his testimony reveals a profound truth: you can only be loved to the extent that you are known.

"You can only be loved to the extent that you are known."

“Moving that much is usually not good for a kid. But my life was incredibly stable, not because we were in the same place, but because we followed the same savior in all the places and that was Jesus.”

“I wanted to be white. I wanted to be Caucasian. I wanted to be Jimmy, not Santiago. Call me Jimmy.”

“That’s not you. At least not fully you. Why are you running away from who I created you to be?”

“I went for an athletic experience. I came home with a calling to serve the church.”

“We wanna extend the love of Jesus to everyone, but you can only be loved to the extent that you are known.”

Santiago "Jimmy" Mellado

Santiago "Jimmy" Mellado is President and CEO of Compassion International, a global child development organization serving over two million children living in poverty. A former Olympic decathlete representing El Salvador at the 1988 Seoul Games, he previously served as president of the Willow Creek Association, helping it grow from a network of 800 churches to over 7,000 worldwide. Mellado is passionate about holistic discipleship, church partnerships, and empowering the global body of Christ.

Nikki Toyama-Szeto

Nikki Toyama-Szeto is the host of Credible Witness and Executive Director of Christians for Social Action. She writes and speaks on leadership, justice, and faith in public life.

• Childhood across El Salvador, Nicaragua, Bolivia, Panama, and the Philippines
• Family church as a first church: “My life was incredibly stable… because we followed the same savior in all the places.”
• Fear, insecurity, and beginning daily Bible reading at age 12 in Panama
• Experiences of coups, hurricanes, and Noriega’s arrest of his father in Panama
• Competing in the 1988 Seoul Olympics as a decathlete for El Salvador
• Encounter with revival and prayer movements in Korea shaping his lifelong calling to serve the church
• Leadership at Willow Creek Association and the Global Leadership Summit
• “A safe place for dangerous questions” as a vision for rethinking church
• Diversity challenges at Willow Creek and the haunting whisper: “That’s not you.”
• Reclaiming the name Santiago and embracing full identity
• Transition to Compassion International: Christ-centered, church-driven, child-focused mission
• Vibrant faith of the global south church and lessons of humility for the western church
• Partnership as mutual healing: “It’s not the wealthy church helping the poor church. It’s the church healing each other.”
• The theology of names: “You can only be loved to the extent that you are known.”
• Hope for the global church as “little Christs” embodying Jesus together

Production Credits

Credible Witness is brought to you by the Rethinking Church Initiative. Hosted by Nikki Toyama-Szeto. Produced by Mark Labberton, Sarey Martin Concepción, and Evan Rosa

Credible Witness is brought to you by the Rethinking Church Initiative. Produced and edited by Mark Labberton, Sarey Martin Concepcion and Evan Rosa. Hosted by Nikki Toyama-Szeto.

Special thanks to Fuller Theological Seminary, Christians for Social Action, and to Brenda Salter McNeill, whose book inspired the title of the show.

For more information, visit CredibleWitness.us.

Pastor and author Tara Beth Leach shares the story of her remarkable, turbulent tenure as the first female lead pastor of Pasadena First Church of the Nazarene (aka, PazNaz). In conversation with Nikki Toyama-Szeto, Tara Beth recounts her early call to ministry, navigating the complexities of breaking boundaries as the first female preacher or lead pastor in various congregational settings, enduring smear campaigns and deeply personal criticism, and shepherding a congregation through seasons of pain and hope.

She reflects on the sustaining grace she found through therapy, spiritual direction, supportive peers, and the vision of Jesus for the church—a vision she still clings to despite the hardships of social media attacks and attempts to undermine her ministry.

From redemptive ministry moments to the difficult decision to step away and return home to care for her family, Tara Beth’s story testifies to resilience, calling, and the belief that Jesus still believes in the church. This is a story of faith, perseverance, and a vision for a “beautiful mess” made whole in God’s love.

"I think Jesus believed in us then. And I think he still believes in us today."

• “It was as though one day I saw the world in black and white, and the next day I saw the world in color.”
• “I have often been either the only female voice, only female pastor, or the first.”
• “It took my breath away.”
• “I never went into ministry to talk about women in ministry… My passion is the mission of God.”
• “When women are held back in the church, the church limps along.”
• “One week later, we showed up and a third of the congregation was missing. Six hundred people are missing from the congregation.”
• “Clothes were distracting or not professional enough.”
• “It was soul crushing. It nearly knocked my legs out from underneath me.”
• “We want these children to experience the love of Christ until they are reunited with their family member.”
• “I think Jesus believed in us then. And I think he still believes in us today.”

• Tara Beth Leach (Website)
• Emboldened: A Vision for Empowering Women in Ministry by Tara Beth Leach
• Radiant Church: Restoring the Credibility of Our Witness by Tara Beth Leach
• Urban Strategies
• First Church of the Nazarene, Pasadena
• Good Shepherd Church, Naperville

Tara Beth Leach is an evangelical pastor and author of Emboldened: A Vision for Empowering Women in Ministry and Radiant Church: Restoring the Credibility of Our Witness. Since 2023, she has served as senior pastor of Good Shepherd Church in Naperville, Illinois. Her ministry has spanned local churches, national speaking, and advocacy for women in leadership.

Nikki Toyama-Szeto is Executive Director of Christians for Social Action and host of Credible Witness. She leads conversations at the intersection of faith, justice, and public life, drawing on decades of ministry experience in global and domestic contexts.

• Early life in a culturally Christian family; dramatic teenage conversion through Youth for Christ.
• “It was as though one day I saw the world in black and white, and the next day I saw the world in color.”
• Call to ministry at 16 without seeing women in pastoral roles.
• First female lead pastor of Pasadena First Church of the Nazarene (“PasNaz”), a flagship church in the denomination.
• National excitement and symbolic significance of her installation.
• Immediate loss of one-third of the congregation within a week.
• Harsh public opposition: social media attacks, open letters, and organized “Save PNA” campaign.
• Personal criticisms targeting voice, clothing, and appearance.
• “Clothes were distracting or not professional enough.”
• The redemptive ministry of fostering immigrant children through Urban Strategies.
• Sustaining faith through therapy, spiritual direction, and supportive ministry peers.
• Decision to leave to honor and care for her parents during illness.
• Verbatim quote: “It was soul crushing. It nearly knocked my legs out from underneath me.”
• Return to lead Good Shepherd Church, a community that knew and loved her.
• Vision for the church shaped by Jesus’s Sermon on the Mount and Revelation’s vision of the kingdom.
• “They are coming and they have gifts and they love Jesus and they love the church.”

Credible Witness is brought to you by the Rethinking Church Initiative. Produced and edited by Mark Labberton, Sarey Martin Concepcion and Evan Rosa. Hosted by Nikki Toyama-Szeto.

Special thanks to Fuller Theological Seminary, Christians for Social Action, and to Brenda Salter McNeill, whose book inspired the title of the show.

For more information, visit CredibleWitness.us.

What does it mean to be a credible witness to Christ in a world marked by racism, silence, and historical amnesia? In this profound and emotionally gripping conversation, historian and advocate Dr. Jemar Tisby joins host Nikki Toyama-Szeto to explore the intersection of faith, race, and historical memory.

From the haunting beauty of the Mississippi Delta’s cotton fields to the riverbank where Emmett Till's body was found, Tisby shows how place carries history—and how Christians are called to remember truthfully. He challenges a truncated vision of racial reconciliation and calls for courageous, justice-oriented discipleship rooted in history and community.

Tisby shares his personal journey through white evangelicalism, the Black church tradition, and a deeper encounter with Jesus that sustains his work. This episode is a call to courageous presence, anti-racist action, and radical hospitality. It’s a vision for church not just as a place of belonging, but of bold and truthful healing.

Racism persists not because of extremists—but because of the people who tolerate it.

1. “The most egregious acts of racism happen within a context of compromise.”
2. “There is no era where America was great in that sense that we can go back to.”
3. “We don't have a how-to problem. We have a want-to problem.”
4. “Racism persists not because of extremists—but because of the people who tolerate it.”
5. “To the extent I ever felt not welcomed, accepted, or had a place—it was because of race.”

Jemar Tisby is the author of The Color of Compromise and How to Fight Racism, and founder of The Witness: A Black Christian Collective. He is the host of Pass the Mic.

Nikki Toyama-Szeto is the host of Credible Witness, and is executive director of Christians for Social Action, equipping the church to pursue justice and follow Jesus in the tension of our times.

Listen to Jemar, Nikki, and Mark Labberton in the Introduction episode of Credible Witness, "Staying with Jesus When the Church’s Credibility Is at Stake."

• Growing up in the Midwest and discovering the importance of place in the South
• “The Delta is the most Southern place on earth.”
• Seeing cotton fields in bloom: beauty and horror intertwined
• Visiting the site where Emmett Till’s body was found
• “There’s a spirit haunting these places.”
• Encountering Fannie Lou Hamer and the transformative power of Black history
• “History has a weight to it because truth has a weight to it.”
• Writing The Color of Compromise out of deep anger and discovery
• The role of Christian compromise in sustaining racism
• “The most egregious acts of racism happen within a context of compromise.”
• The shallow vision of racial reconciliation in white evangelicalism
• “We don’t talk about race. That’s how race showed up.”
• Disillusionment with multiethnic churches and the post-Obama backlash
• The shift from reconciliation to racial justice as “what is owed”
• The ARC framework: Awareness, Relationships, Commitment
• Inspiration from the Black church tradition and the nearness of Jesus
• “Be strong and courageous—for I will be with you wherever you go.”

Jemar Tisby says: “We don't have a how-to problem, we have a want-to problem. That's it. Because I tell people all the time, listen, if I gave you five minutes, you could come up with a list of a dozen things, really helpful things that we could do to fight racism and create more equity. That's not the issue of how. How to is not the issue. The issue is: Will you do that? Are you willing to do that? Are you willing to make the sacrifices, to confront your fear and push through it, to risk losing community, straining relationships, changing jobs, losing money—all of that stuff that goes with the work of justice?”

Credible Witness is brought to you by the Rethinking Church Initiative. Produced and edited by Mark Labberton, Sarey Martin Concepcion and Evan Rosa. Hosted by Nikki Toyama-Szeto.

Special thanks to Fuller Theological Seminary, Christians for Social Action, and to Brenda Salter McNeill, whose book inspired the title of the show.

For more information, visit CredibleWitness.us.

In the premiere episode of Credible Witness, host Nikki Toyama-Szeto is joined by theologian and public historian Jemar Tisby and pastor and scholar Mark Labberton to explore how the witness of the church has become compromised—and what might restore its credibility. Reflecting on five years of candid, challenging conversation among diverse Christian leaders during the wake of George Floyd’s murder and rising Christian nationalism, the three discuss the soul-searching, disillusionment, and hope that emerged.

Together, they examine the cultural fractures, theological tensions, and moral failures that have pushed many to extremes, elevating strident voices as an increased number of people to leave the church.

They articulate the mission and vision of Credible Witness, testify to a persistent hope in Jesus and the power of honest community, face painful truths, and imagine a church that more truly reflects the love, justice, and mercy of God.

Key Moments

1. “We absolutely get that… but we’re still on board with Jesus. And Jesus has always been with us and hasn’t left us.”
2. “This isn’t about leaving Jesus. This is about following Jesus.”
3. “We’ve got a better story to tell.”
4. “It was the church that was putting the church at risk.”
5. “The church has a reputation in the United States… and not a good one by and large.”

About the Contributors

Nikki Toyama-Szeto is the host of Credible Witness, and is executive director of Christians for Social Action, equipping the church to pursue justice and follow Jesus in the tension of our times.

Jemar Tisby is the author of The Color of Compromise and How to Fight Racism, and founder of The Witness: A Black Christian Collective. He is the host of Pass the Mic.

Mark Labberton is a pastor, author, and former president of Fuller Seminary, known for his prophetic voice on faith, justice, and the credibility of the church. He is host of the podcast Conversing.

• “This isn’t about leaving Jesus. This is about following Jesus.” —Jemar Tisby
• Nikki introduces Credible Witness as a space for honest stories of faith amid moral complexity and social tension
• Mark recalls the origins of the conversation in summer 2020: COVID-19, George Floyd, church division, and racial injustice
• Jemar Tisby clarifies the mission for imagining a more credible Christian witness
• Nikki reflects on trust-building in a space that welcomed “tricky truths” and honesty without pretense
• The group’s five-year journey begins as a short experiment but grows into a lasting community of deep discernment
• “We weren’t trying to replicate any harm.” —Jemar Tisby
• The group names white Christian nationalism and silence on injustice as threats to the church’s credibility
• Ephesians 2 and the power of “coming together of the unlikes” as a witness to the resurrection
• “It was the church that was putting the gospel at risk.” —Mark Labberton
• Nikki explains how church neutrality began to speak volumes: “Choosing silence was actually a loud voice.”
• Discussion on the failure of integrity: “Too many things in isolation” eroded credibility
• Jemar highlights story as central to public theology: “We’ve got a better story to tell.”
• The group wrestles with algorithmic distortion and toxic digital narratives shaping Christian identity
• “Not just message, but embodiment”: The church’s credibility depends on lived ethics, not just theological claims
• Mark emphasizes self-examination: “Are we credible?”
• Dissonance and disagreement as gifts: “What kept people in the room was the gift of dissonance.” —Nikki Toyama-Szeto
• Jemar recalls moments of tension over how to prioritize justice issues while remaining unified in Christ
• The group’s diversity as a deliberate strategy: different traditions, backgrounds, and responsibilities within the church
• Nikki names divine timing: the conversation is more urgent now than when it began
• “We’re not all supposed to be the same... That’s how everything gets covered.” —Jemar Tisby
• Mark frames the church’s failure as internal implosion—not external threat
• “Why is the church seemingly so unchanged?” —Mark Labberton
• Nikki describes how marginalized voices carry wisdom for the way forward
• Jemar articulates the podcast’s goal: a mirror and a window for listeners to see both themselves and the larger church
• Nikki closes with an invitation to slow down and listen generously: “Pull up a chair...”

Credible Witness is brought to you by the Rethinking Church Initiative. Produced and edited by Mark Labberton, Sarey Martin Concepcion and Evan Rosa. Hosted by Nikki Toyama-Szeto.

Special thanks to Fuller Theological Seminary, Christians for Social Action, and to Brenda Salter McNeill, whose book inspired the title of the show.

For more information, visit CredibleWitness.us.