Dancing with Systems

Reconnecting economics with the foundational system of life.

Nature is the foundational baseline of our global economy, yet mainstream financial systems have long priced its preservation at effectively zero. With wildlife populations declining by 73% since 1970, nature loss poses a severe, systemic threat to economic stability. In this Season 1 finale, Wayne and Sally explore how businesses can shift from extracting natural capital to embedding nature at the highest levels of governance, strategy, and culture. 

Guests

Eva Zabey — CEO, Business for Nature 

Charmian Love — Chief International Advocacy Officer, Natura &Co; Legal Representative for Mother Nature and Future Generations on the Board of House of Hackney 

What We Cover

• Grounding the economic reliance on nature: $58 trillion of global GDP relies on healthy ecosystems 
• The $2.6 trillion imbalance: How harmful government subsidies dwarf conservation spending and why fiscal reform is crucial 
• Moving beyond reporting checklists: Leveraging frameworks like TNFD and Integrated Profit & Loss (IP&L) for strategic decision-making 
• Giving nature a voice at the top: Pioneering nature governance, including Mother Nature’s seat on corporate boards 
• Transitioning from the Anthropocene to the Symbiocene through cultural shifts, personal appreciation, and biophilia 
• Season 1 reflections: How policy, market signals, technology, and social movements intersect to trigger positive tipping points 

Key Quotes

"We work in an economic system where we value nature when it's dead—when timber is cut, when fish are caught, when soil is degraded. We need to shift to valuing nature that is the living, breathing, regenerating system." — Eva Zabey 

"We must be guided by the science, and we will be moved by the poetry." — Charmian Love (quoting Nigel Topping) 

References

• Business for Nature: businessfornature.org
• Natura &Co: naturaandco.com
• Taskforce on Nature-related Financial Disclosures (TNFD): tnfd.global
• Kunming-Montreal Global Biodiversity Framework: www.cbd.int/gbf
• Dasgupta Review on the Economics of Biodiversity: www.gov.uk/government/publications/final-report-the-economics-of-biodiversity-the-dasgupta-review

This Episode's Dance

The Rumba & African Dance — The Rumba, often performed barefoot as the "dance of love," symbolizes the need for grounded, deeply felt connection and care for nature. Paired with traditional African dance, it brings the high-energy rhythm, Earth-stamping connection, and cyclical vitality required to drive system-wide regeneration

Unlocking preventive healthcare for people and planet.

Health is one of our most complex and deeply interconnected systems—shaping and shaped by climate change, food, agriculture, policy, and poverty. While healthcare delivery carries a significant environmental footprint, climate impacts from extreme heat to air pollution are rapidly worsening health outcomes worldwide. In this episode, Wayne and Sally explore how to shift from reactive "sickness" systems to preventive, climate-resilient healthcare. 

Guests

Dr Sandro Demaio — Director, World Health Organization Asia Pacific Centre for Environment and Health 

Dr Jonny Groome — Associate Medical Lead for Sustainability, Nuffield Health; Climate Director, Tottenham Creative Climate Collaborative; Consultant in Paediatric Anaesthesia, Royal London Hospital 

What We Cover

• Why changing disease patterns and climate risks require an urgent transition in global health systems 
• The double burden: How healthcare creates 5–7% of national carbon footprints while facing escalating climate impacts 
• Decarbonizing scope 3 health supply chains and hospitals while keeping products and care affordable 
• Lessons from Asia and the Pacific: Relocating vulnerable hospitals, greening cities, and driving regional political consensus 
• Shifting from a reactive "sickness service" to preventive, plant-forward, community-centered wellcare 
• The "7 Acts" for individual action and leveraging creative communities to build local climate resilience 

Key Quotes

"The solutions that are required to tackle chronic disease are the same things that we need to do to address climate change and environmental degradation." — Dr Sandro Demaio 

"Healthcare's emissions contribute 4 to 5%, but we touch about 90% of global supply chains... If we bring our entire supply chain along, we start to bleed into other carbon emission routes." — Dr Jonny Groome 

References

• World Health Organization Asia Pacific Centre for Environment and Health: who.int
• Nuffield Health: nuffieldhealth.com
• EAT-Lancet Commission on Food, Planet, Health: https://www.thelancet.com/commissions-do/EAT-2025

This Episode's Dance

The Line Dance (with a Flashmob twist) — A line dance because transforming healthcare requires everyone moving in synchronized choreography regardless of what you wear, and a flashmob for the rapid, emergency response needed when systemic crises strike.

How finance underpins all sector transitions—and how we fix the flow

The finance system underpins almost every major transition underway, acting both as a root cause of past systemic failures and as the ultimate lever for future solutions. In this episode, Wayne and Sally explore how to unlock financial flows to accelerate transitions across energy, food, nature, and health—despite political headwinds, market backlashes, and regulatory hurdles. 

Guests

• Paul Dickinson — Co-Founder and Managing Partner, Transition Value Partners; Co-Host, Outrage + Optimism 
• Claudine Blamey — Chief Sustainability Officer, Aviva 

What We Cover

• Why finance acts as a "bird's-eye view" underpinning all other systems transitions 
• Navigating political pushback, "Planet Trump vs. Planet Biden," and anti-ESG headwinds 
• Reframing policy makers as "policy collaborators" rather than adversaries 
• Shift in corporate action: Moving beyond net zero to climate adaptation, community resilience, and risk management 
• How to turn nature into an investable asset class through ecosystem services and catchment-level multi-solving 
• The role of individual consumers and investors in driving broader financial systems change 

Key Quotes

"We need to reframe the policy maker as the policy collaborator... to unleash the investment which will give us clean and more wealthy societies." — Paul Dickinson 

"Our vision is for nature to become an investable asset... creating the product and the customer so that nature yields a return." — Claudine Blamey 

References

• Donella Meadows — Thinking in Systems
• Transition Value Partners: transitionvalue.com
• CDP (formerly Carbon Disclosure Project) 
• Aviva: aviva.com
• Flood Action Coalition 

This Episode's Dance

Techno meets Ballet — Techno for its compulsive, irresistible beat and our hyper-fixation on money; Ballet for the discipline, choreography, and strength required when finance is orchestrated right. 

Next episode

The Health System Transition

The food system is full of big numbers — and even bigger tensions.

In this episode, Wayne and Sally dive deep into one of our most culturally embedded and vital global systems. From soil health and water usage to biodiversity and the power of food to bring people together, the food system connects deeply to human health, culture, and planetary boundaries. But with food accounting for a third of global greenhouse gas emissions and millions facing acute hunger or unaffordable healthy diets, the need for a transition toward regenerative agriculture and systemic change has never been more urgent.

Is regenerative agriculture the ultimate solution? How can we empower farmers at the center of this shift? And what does it take to transform a system from the inside out? Wayne and Sally explore these questions alongside three key leaders transforming the food landscape.

Guests

• Andy Cato — Co-founder of Wild Farmed; award-winning farmer and Grammy-nominated musician.
• Brian Griffith — Executive Chairman of Griffith Foods; fourth-generation leader of a global B2B product development and food ingredient business operating across 30+ countries.
• Chantelle Nicholson — Award-winning chef, restaurateur, author, and owner of Apricity in London; independent board member for ReLondon and member of City Harvest's Food Council.

What We Cover

• Why the food system accounts for a third of global carbon emissions — and why $2.6 billion people still cannot afford a healthy diet.
• How regenerative agriculture shifts the focus from chemistry back to biology, restoring soil fertility and water infiltration.
• Why we must move past the false binary choice between food production and nature restoration.
• The financial realities facing farmers and the need to align economic incentives through private finance and community support.
• How B2B food businesses can embed purpose (People, Planet, Performance) across global supply chains.
• The critical role of culture, taste, and hospitality in changing consumer behaviour without lecturing.
• Why applied technology in food systems — like precision fermentation or upcycling waste — must serve biology rather than replicate fragile chemical models.

Key Quotes

References

• Wild Farmed — Regenerative farming initiative co-founded by Andy Cato. https://wildfarmed.com/
• Griffith Foods — Global product development and food ingredient partner. https://griffithfoods.com/
• Apricity — Conscious dining restaurant in London created by Chantelle Nicholson. https://www.apricityrestaurant.com/

This Episode's Dance

Like a Tango, the food system involves equal and opposing forces — between business, government, farmers, and consumers. Navigating the transition requires a delicate, coordinated dance between culture, economics, policy, and nature to choreograph real systemic change.

AI and clean tech are converging to influence the pace and nature of
key systems transition.

AI is the great accelerator — but accelerating in the wrong direction is still the wrong direction. In this episode, Wayne and Sally explore the double-edged nature of technology: a powerful enabler of every other systems transition, and a sector with its own rapidly growing footprint. The question isn't whether AI is good or bad — it's what we point it at.

Guests

Joel Makower — Chair & Co-founder, Trellis Group (formerly GreenBiz); Strategy Director, Music Sustainability Alliance; lead author, State of Green Business

Anna Lerner Nesbitt — CEO, Climate Collective; former senior leader at Meta, the World Bank Group, and the Global Environment Facility

What We Cover

• Why the five biggest tech companies now outspend the entire oil and gas industry on capital investment
• How AI is enabling breakthroughs in energy grids, supply chain traceability, deforestation monitoring, and more — and where it's falling short
• Why Big Tech's emissions are going up, despite their net zero commitments
• The community backlash against data centres — and why it's crossing political lines
• What "AI literacy" means and why it matters for governments, businesses, and individuals
• Why applied AI in industrial systems — not chatbots — is where the real sustainability impact lies

Key Quotes

"We can now measure emissions and planetary impact far better than we can reduce them." — Joel Makower

"AI will be good, AI could be really positive for whatever we point it towards." — Anna Lerner Nesbitt

"Why can't I know where my AI was processed? Technically, it's totally possible." — Anna Lerner Nesbitt

References

• Trellis Group (formerly GreenBiz): trellis.net
• Climate Collective: climatecollective.org
• Kenneth Boulding — the "cowboy economy" vs. the "spaceship economy"
• Donella Meadows — Thinking in Systems

This Episode's Dance

The Paso Doble — a dance of raw power, with the bull and the matador both charging. Who wins? That's the question playing out right now between the hyperscalers, communities, and policymakers.

Next episode: The Food System Transition 

Why the energy transition might already be unstoppable.

The energy transition isn't coming — it's already here. In our first episode, Wayne and Sally unpack why the shift to renewables has passed the point of no return, who's leading the charge globally, and what a truly fair transition looks like in practice.

Guests

Kingsmill Bond — Senior Principal, Ember
Rhian Kelly — Chief Sustainability Officer, SSE
 
What We Cover

• How systems change — and why the energy transition has hit its tipping point
• Why renewables are winning on economics, not just ethics
• The surprising truth about where the transition is moving fastest (hint: not the UK or US)
• AI and energy demand — threat or opportunity?
• What a just transition looks like on the ground, from affordable housing to supply chain ethics
• The levers that will complete the transition — and the things we should stop spending money on

 Key Quotes

"We are past the tipping point. Fossil fuel demand has peaked and will be clearly in decline by the end of the decade." — Kingsmill Bond

"Speed is justice. Those who stick with the old system are going to be left behind." — Kingsmill Bond

"Little steps are as important as big steps." — Rhian Kelly
 
References

• Donella Meadows — Thinking in Systems (the inspiration for this podcast)
• The Multi-Level Perspective framework for systems change
• Ember: ember-energy.org 
• SSE: sse.com

 This Episode's Dance

The Quickstep — fast, well-choreographed, and flying across the floor. With a dash of Breakdancing for good measure, because this transition has to be community-led from the ground up.
 
Next episode

The Technology System Transition