TIMING IS EVERYTHING…
The world of soul music is full of its fair share of recording artists and performers who, for whatever their destiny may be, don’t ascend to the heights of recognition their talent warrants or deserves.
In the crowded pantheon of ‘60s and ‘70s R&B, Thelma Jones is not - as she herself would acknowledge - a ‘household’ name. Indeed, like many a soulful purveyor of emotive and passionate singing - even in the hallowed hierachy of avid record buyers and listeners - Thelma is known only by a dedicated few, most notably and in particular in the UK.
With the 1967 blues ballad “Never Leave Me,” Thelma achieved US Top 50 R&B chart status - and yet, some of her recordings for the Barry label achieved a greater reception among Britain’s ‘Northern Soul’ community.
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SOUL CITY RECORDS - REVIVED & REJUVENATED…
In 2025, I was approached by UK-based Charly Records to consider the relaunch of Soul City Records, a label that I co-founded with Dave Godin and Robert Blackmore in l968 as a natural outgrowth of our shop that only sold American R&B 45s and LPs.
Soul City Records lasted for almost two years -and yet, among Britain’s hardcore soul music fraternity of the ‘60s, it became somewhat the stuff of mythology and legend.
Our 1969 releases included the original recording of “The House That Jack Built” by Thelma Jones (covered and a big hit for Aretha Franklin in 1968) and in what I can only call synchro-destiny, August 2026 sees the ‘return’ of Thelma to the revived Soul City label with two brilliant new recordings, “Love That Man” and “Movin’ In The Right Direction.”
Timing is, indeed, everything!
(Note: The transcript for the audio has been edited)
DAVID N: Welcome everybody. I am so excited to have a conversation today with the incomparable Ms. Thelma Jones! She is about to have a new release, first release ever anywhere in the world of two recordings she has done. “Love That Man “and “Movin’ In The Right Direction.”
It’s even more wonderful for me that they’re on Soul City Records, which is the label that I started with Dave Godin and Robert Blackmore, originally back in 1968. One of our first releases back then was also a recording by Thelma, “The House of Jack Built” and here we are all these years later, reuniting with Thelma for this brand new release. So welcome Thelma!
THELMA J: Thank you so much. I’m so grateful to be here and I’m doing very, very well.
DAVID N: Well, I’m sure people are going to want to know how this whole new recording came about. Share with us a little bit about the whole process that led to this release on Soul City…
THELMA J: Well, it was actually the producer of this record and the writer is Mr. James Holvay. We were doing some music projects together and he was interested in putting together a promo or a theme song for President Obama at the time for his second re-election campaign [in 2013]. He came up with this song, “Movin’ In The Right Direction, and “Love That Man,” which will be the A side. That’s how we decided to do it.
DAVID N: Did you have any plans for it being released at that time, when it was recorded?
THELMA J: At that time, we did not. He was going to present it to the Obama campaign managers, and I don’t know that he ever had the opportunity to do that, but then he was at some point planning to release “Love That Man”, but it just never happened until now.
DAVID N: And we can tell the story… I don’t mind us telling the story about how this came about. Because in the interest of transparency for everyone who will be listening to this, I have known Thelma personally as a dear friend for quite a few decades.
I think how I recall that one of the people at Charly Records, was working with a gentleman you mentioned, James Holvay, and had this track and he wasn’t 100% sure who it was. He asked me to listen to it and I said, well, I’m not sure, I think it’s Thelma Jones. Then as you recall, Thelma, I believe I played it to you on the phone. I think that’s how I did it.
THELMA J: You did. I had actually forgotten that we did that session. When I heard it and I said, ‘I’m not sure. Are you sure that’s me?’ It was quite comical because you said, ‘yes, Miss Thelma. I know your voice. I know the inflections, the way you phrase, that is you.’ After I listened to it, I went, ‘oh, yes. I remember recording this with James Holvay’.
DAVID N: Yes. At that point, we had not heard “Movin’ In The Right Direction.” We only heard that one song, “Love That Man.” I remember what I did, actually, when I heard it… and I diDavid N’t know anything about James Holvay…and I went online and tried to see, ‘ Has this been something that Thelma did thatI diDavid N’t know about? I coulDavid N’t find it anywhere, of course, it haDavid N’t been released.
Then, as you know how it’s all turned out, Chary Records working with Soul City label has been able to work it out to have it released. I’ve got to tell you, from my perspective, it sounds absolutely brilliant! To me, it has that kind of almost like a Chicago soul sound to it. So tell me about what you remember about the session. I mean, anything you want to say about the actual recording of it?
THELMA J: Well, it’s very interesting that you mentioned that it has the Chicago soul sound, because that’s where James is from, Chicago. That is his musical background. Of course, R&B music, but he especially loved Curtis Mayfield. But he really, really loved that sound that is specific to Chicago.
What I remember about the session was that I loved it, it was an easy going feeling in the studio, no pressure…it was just easy. I actually enjoyed it which I can hear that through the listening to the song afterwards.
DAVID N: I have to tell you that I personally was a little torn between which I thought should be the A or B side because “Movin’ In The Right Direction” is as much a great recording as “Love That Man”.
Do you want to say anything a little bit about “Movin’ In The Right Direction” because it seems kind of topical… given what’s going on in the world. I particularly noted that the flavor of it that would be reminiscent a little bit of Mavis Staples, I would say, in reference towards the end of the recording.
THELMA J: Oh yes, oh yes. It is really interesting the times we’re living in and the message in the song that he was offering to the Obama campaign at the time. It is reminiscent a little Mavis.
DAVID N: I know it’s been a while since you had a new record out, Thelma, so we want to catch people up a little bit about what you’ve been up to. I do recall specifically that you’ve had a couple of times coming to Europe, which has been quite amazing because I think both or three occasions that you have been over on this side of the pond, as they used to say.
One was in Northampton, was very much a ‘Northern Soul’ event. I think it’s okay to tell people that, when we were there, it was really interesting how much those recordings that you made all the way back in the years, in the 60s, still resonate with that particular audience, songs like “Stronger.” I just want you to share with us a little bit about when that happened, what was your reaction to it?
THELMA J: I was just really overwhelmed and amazed and so appreciative because that the fan base was still there and remembered the songs and was singing along with me. It was just wonderful.
DAVID N: Then, of course, you and I got together again in Italy at Porretta, which is also very memorable to me because I recall that you treated us on a Sunday morning at a local church with an incredible rendition of “Take My Hand, Precious Lord, “which I know is very much a part of your gospel roots.
I want to say a little bit about that too, because I think that’s also, for people who haven’t heard from you for a while, let’s give them some idea of your story in as much as it began in the world of gospel. You singing that song was very fitting, I think, on that occasion [in 2010].
THELMA J: That’s my roots, my base. That’s what I started out singing. The music was, of course, gospel. I think I remember the first time I ever sung a song in public was in the church. I was about five years old and my aunt bribed me into singing because she’s a very devout Christian.
She came to visit and she heard me singing every blues song that was popular at the time and she said to me, ‘well, do you know any songs about Jesus?’ I remember that vividly, I said, ‘no, ma’am’ and she says, ‘well, if I teach you a song about Jesus, I’ll make a very pretty little dress. Will you sing it at church?’ I went, ‘oh, you know, being a little Taurean baby, I wanted that pretty dress!’ So I said, oh, yes, ma’am.’ She taught me this song, ‘I’ll Fly Away’ and I ended up singing it in church for the first time. The response was so overwhelming. I ended up becoming a member of the choir and singing gospel music for quite a long time.
DAVID N: Well, what’s amazing is that you said you were five?
THELMA J: Five. Four or five. I was very little.
DAVID N: Yeah. I mean, do you have to stand on a little stool or something?
THELMA J: Well, you know, that’s interesting. the acoustics in the churches in those days, you really didn’t need a microphone so they let me stand on the little platform just below the pulpit so everybody could see the little person that was singing.
It was almost frightening to a certain degree because the people reacted so emotionally and everybody wanted to grab you and squeeze you. They were shouting, ‘Praise the Lord! That was kind of scary to me, but I wanted that little dress and I got it.
DAVID N: So your aunt did come through with the dress, right?
THELMA J: Oh yes, it was pretty. She was an excellent seamstress…
DAVID N: One question for you in terms of the recordings. that you made for that label, Barry Records. Of course, as I mentioned earlier, some of those recordings went on to become what we would call ‘Northern Soul’ classics, unbeknownst to you or I actually, because I was in America when they were becoming ‘Northern Soul’ classics. I didn’t know, and I’m assuming you didn’t know at the time that some of those recordings, there were quite a few of them. I’m remembering some of the names, they weren’t all ‘Northern Soul classics’, but I remember “Souvenirs Od A Heartbreak. Was there a song called “One More Chance”? “Gotta Find A Way”?
THELMA J: Yes, that was one of my favorites.
DAVID N: Yes. But the point being, you were still recording at that time for Barry [Records]
THELMA J: Barry Records was with Mr. Hy Weiss. It was his label and I was brought to him by Arthur Prysock… we did a lot of shows together.
DAVID N: I didn’t know that.
THELMA J: [Arthur Prysock] was just really a nice man, I really enjoyed working with him. We did all kinds of shows, especially in the New Jersey area and New York, the jazz clubs around town. You know, he thought I was very talented and he took me to Hy Weiss who he signed to his label.
DAVID N: Do you want to also share a little bit about the history of [the song] “The House That Jack Built” because I don’t know that everybody knows the history of how that came about and how it ended up with somebody else, which we’ll mention in a minute too. Can you tell us a little bit about the song and what you remember about the session or anything about that particular recording?
THELMA J: Well, it was very interesting. Bobby Lance wrote and produced that particular session. It was recorded in New York because Bernard ‘Pretty’ Purdie was on the drums. I remember that because he was a famous drummer.
DAVID N: Yeah, of course.
THELMA J: And The Sweet inspirations, which was Myrna [Smith], Estelle [Brown{ and Cissy [Houston} and another young lady. Sylvia and we actually we were from the same town, Fayetteville [North Carolina]. I didn’t know it at the time.
DAVID N: Yeah, Sylvia Shemwell.
THELMA J: Yes, The Sweet inspirations did the backup. We did the session and I somehow, I think Cissy mentioned it to Aretha…and they went in the studio and did it. Their version was the big hit in America.
Before that, my version of ‘The House That Jack Belt, because they released it first, was the theme song for Tent City for the March on Washington. You know I never knew that. That’s what the people were playing there. at that time. And the reason I know about it, because it was one of the, my version of ‘The House of Jack Built’ was quite popular, before [Aretha] recorded her version.
There was a newspaper… I don’t remember if it was “The Amsterdam News”, but it was a prominent African-American newspaper reported that “The House of Jack Built” was the theme song for Tent City.*
DAVID N: Wow. See, even though I’ve known you all these years, I never knew that. From a perspective of Soul City Records in England at the time, and we had a few releases, and I don’t actually know how one of my partners in that, Dave Godin, got the rights to release “The House of Jack Built” but he did and I remember we put it out.
I think we released it on Soul City. after Aretha’s version came out because it was the original. So yours came out first in America, then hers came out and in Britain, yours came out. It was included on the first LP we did at Soul City called “Soul From The City, Volume One.”
I was asked to write the notes on the back. And we had a little picture of you and I said something, ‘the beautiful Miss Thelma Jones,’ you know.. that was my first time writing a lot of notes or sleeve notes for an LP… so that was the beginning of you and I being connected in that way.
Then of course, moving forward to Columbia Records, which would be about 1977, I think, something like that, where we connected again, you recorded a Columbia album.
One of the tracks was a single that came out before the LP, which was “Salty Tears,” which is still thought of as one of the most soulful recordings of the 70s. Do you remember much about “Salty Tears”?
THELMA J: That session was done in Muscle Shoals, Alabama.
DAVID N: Yes, with Brad Shapiro.
THELMA J: Brad Shapiro was the producer. That was a real exciting experience. I just returned from India. I think five or six weeks in India [in an ashram]. I came back and my first sort of introduction to the world was going into the studio and recording “Salty Tears.”
I remember the experience. It was quite amazing. And I was so unbelievably impressed with the musicians at that time in Muscle Shoals.. They were so soulful. At that time I thought the band was black, but they were not…which has nothing to do with anything, they were just so great. I walked in the studio and started to record and went, ‘oh wow, beautiful Muscle Shoals, Alabama.’
DAVID N: Then, of course, you have the album called “Thelma Jones” ….a couple of songs that people really resonated with. I remember there’s your version of [The O’Jays] “!Now That We Found Love.”
THELMA J: And,..”Stay A While With Me”
DAVID N: Yes….and “How Long”…
THELMA J: ‘How long you’re going to stay mad this time?’
DAVID N: Yes. And a song called” I’d Rather Leave While I’m in Love.”
THELMA J: Oh, yes. That was Carol Bayer Sager.
DAVID N: That’s right. Yes. I think you’d agree with me that particular album stands the test of time.
THELMA J: Yes, because recorded in a soulful way, because that’s the way I sing. But the genres of music was all very different. “ Angel in the Morning.”…so many other people recorded it. It was a very, very interesting and I think ir was a well done album, produced by Bert DeiCouteaux, whose background was classical music.
DAVID N: I remember coming to the studio and meeting you with our mutual friend Gary Byrd. Then I guess it was someone at Columbia who asked me to write the notes for the back of the album… I still have a copy! It’s one of my prized possessions!
In other words, you were on the first liner notes or sleeve notes I did in England ever…and then here we are on the “Thelma Jones” album, the same thing in America. So I guess you give me a couple of my ‘firsts’ in my career! There you go.
THELMA J: And here we are today!
DAVID N: So let’s just move forward now to when you moved to LA. I remember very vividly going to see you on several occasions when we both lived in Los Angeles. You still live there. When I was there, I remember different gigs that you went to, especially one that you did I think was it [for] The Rhythm and Blues Foundation?
Yes, we did one for to raise money for ‘The Rhythm and Blues Foundation’ and of course, one of the things that’s memorable to me is that you ended up reuniting with The Sweet Inspirations.
THELMA J: Yes, And Evelyn Champagne King, because she was on that show as well. What a sweet lady! The reason I mentioned her, because we both had the same manager at one time.
DAVID N: Okay. While you haven’t done as much recording, you have definitely been doing regular performances, I know, at different places throughout the LA area and so forth.
Would it be true to say that you, the part of your show…is about one of the primary influences of your whole life, someone I got the opportunity to meet on the only time she came to England, and we know who that is, Big Maybelle!
THELMA J: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. She was absolutely amazing, unique, one-of-a-kind.’ Miss Mabel.’
DAVID N: As I remember you told me she was somewhat of a mentor for you too.
THELMA J: Oh, she was definitely one of the main, I would say, big influences in my life and a mentor, yes. She had a lot of faith in me because when I worked with her at the Apollo Theater, I was on the same bill with her, which was such an honor. she assigned her private assistant to me to go and find wardrobe. She just took me under her wing: she thought I had a big voice. She used to refer to me as ‘that little bitty girl with that big old voice.’ That’s when I had, I do believe [the record] “Never Leave Me.”
DAVID N: That’s right. Yeah.
THELMA J: It was a hit at that time. She was just… wonderful to me.
DAVID N: Yes. Anything else you want to say about what it’s like to, I would say back, but in terms of recording, back in the spotlight again? How do you feel about it?
THELMA J: I’ve heard it said, and I know from my own life experience, it’s true. What is meant for someone to have in their destiny, no one can remove it or take it away. And if it’s not meant, no one can give it to you. After all these years, so many years back, here we are still standing, still here, still singing. It’s very, very exciting.
DAVID N: I mean, personally, it just means so much to me that this recording is coming out on Soul City, obviously, for all my connection with the label, but also with my connection to you.
I’m really thrilled, thrilled, thrilled at the kind of work that that Charly Records and the Soul City label are doing to let people know that Thelma Jones is here and with new music, then they’re going to love it. And who knows, maybe at some point we’ll see you on this side of the Atlantic.
THELMA J: Oh, that would be so divine. So divine. You never know.
DAVID N: All right. Well, thank you, Thelma. Thank you for your time. Thank you for your energy. Thank you for being a friend of mine for so long.
THELMA J: Oh, yes, we have had a continuous, it’s been a continuous unbroken string, a stream, I should say. And that within itself is unusual.
DAVID N: It is over decades, over oceans.
THELMA J: And very harmonious and positive all those years.
DAVID N: Yes. Well, again, everybody, so I know it’s like a little bit of a promo, but that’s what it’s meant to be!
If you haven’t yet checked it out, go to the Charly Records website and you can, right now, purchase on vinyl and it’s available to stream. Meanwhile, there’s a little video that you can see on Thelma. It’s just all a great experience.
Really. one thing I do want to say to complete …our interview, is that you are one of the only two artists who are still with us, vibrant, alive, singing from the original Soul City label, the other one being Gene Chandler and it’s quite something, Thelma.
THELMA J: It is quite amazing.
DAVID N: It is. It’s amazing. It’s amazing. And without giving too much away, I know one of the projects that you have in mind coming up at some point will be a return to your roots with doing an album at some point in tribute to one of your greatest gospel influences, correct?
THELMA J: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. I’m looking forward to doing that. Old school gospel, as they would say.
DAVID N: That’s right. In tribute to Albertina Walker.
THELMA J: She’s one of the greats. Yes.
DAVID N: Well, you’re one of the greats too. And I’m grateful for your time today. And just let’s keep on keeping on and…”Movin’In The Right Direction.”
THELMA J: ‘Moving in the right direction… we can’t stop now!”
DAVID N: That’s right. All right. Thank you, Thelma. All right. Have a lovely rest of your day. All right.
THELMA J: You have a wonderful rest of your day as well, your evening.
DAVID N: Bye-bye. Bye-bye.
*Note regarding Thelma’s reference to “Tent City”: It was formally known as Resurrection City. It was a 16-acre temporary encampment constructed on the National Mall in Washington as the centerpiece of the Poor People’s Campaign, a multi-week demonstration organized by the Southern Christian Leadership Conference (SCLC) and was conceived by Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
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