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TRANSCRIPT:

Connecting the dots with Dr. Wilmer Leon, where the analysis of politics, culture, and history converge.

Welcome to the Connecting the Dots podcast with Dr. Wilmer Leon. I'm Wilmer Leon. Here's the point. We have a tendency to view current events as though they happen in a vacuum, failing to understand the broader historical context in which most events take place. During each episode, my guests and I have probing, provocative, and in-depth discussions that connect the dots between current events and the broader historic context in which these events take place. This enables you to better understand and analyze the events that are impacting the global village in which we live on today's episode. The issue before is what are the problems facing African-American aviators and other aviators of color in the commercial aviation space? To assist me with this discussion, let's turn to my guest. He's a man with well over 12,000 hours in the cockpit. In the commercial cockpit. He is Captain Clovis Jones, retired. Captain Jones, welcome to the show.

Thank you so much for having me.

If you would please introduce yourself. You have such a broad, such a vast resume. I don't want to give short shrift to any of your accomplishments, so please take a moment and introduce yourself, sir.

Okay. Clovis Jones Jr. Born in Dawson, Georgia. I wanted to be a pilot since I was four years old. I actually turned down a scholarship to Morehouse College in premed to go to the Army High School to Flight School program. However, my recruiter put something different on my contract. One reason is that he didn't get credit for recruiting officers and secondly, and that part of the world as a black person, that was not something that people who looked like him wanted people like me who looked like me to do so. I wound up in the infantry for three years, got out and asked for my scholarship back and went to Morehouse for a semester and was called by the Army's Aviation Department to see if I was still interested in flight school and I said yes. So I reenlisted into the army and did go to flight school, completing flight school.

(02:35)

You are rated to fly both, as you just mentioned, helicopters and fixed wing aircraft. How unique is that for an aviator, particularly an African-American aviator?

Well, I don't know how unique it is, but there are a few of us who are dual rated and even fewer who were black. During Vietnam era, there were only about 600 black army aviators. So there's a book 600 more or less. And so to be dual rated, that's rare

To be dual rated. That is rare. Before we go any further, I'd be remiss if I did not mention the passing of Captain David E. Harris, the first African-American pilot for a major US passenger carrier. He died March 8th at the age of 89, and he once said, there's no way I should be the first. It should have happened long before 1964. I know you were friends with Captain Harris. If you could speak about him and his accomplishments.

Well, Dave Harris, just a principal gentleman, he was just outstanding and always he was a mentor, he was a good friend based on his experiences, he basically told us what to look out for and that was a time where the airlines use sickle cell trait testing to keep us from being hired. Yes, either you have sickle cell and one blood test says it all, but they would continue to test you to see if you had the trait. And that was one way that they would not bring us on board. Another was testing, so Dave Harris with American Airlines, he challenged that. So with the psychological testing, which had no barrier on you becoming a pilot. So he challenged that as well as the repeated blood testing to see if somehow if we didn't have the sickle cell trait with the first blood test, they would keep testing you hoping that you would show the trait and they could deny you hiring. So that was one of the milestones, and he was one of the presidents of the organization of black airline pilots. But just a principal gentleman

Mentioning the psychological testing, one would think someone with your background, Vietnam aviator, that all of the trials and tribulations that you went through overseas that the fact that you survived, that should be enough psychological testing to warrant you to be a commercial. I mean, if you can fly there, you can probably deal with passengers going between Dallas and wherever it is you're going to go. But that sounds as though that was another exclusionary process, not an inclusionary process.

Yeah, that's correct. That is correct. And when Marlon Green won his Supreme Court decision, Supreme that broke the barriers of us being kept out of the industry. He was hired but not trained, so he didn't get a chance to fly. So it was a delay even in that process. So there are a lot of delaying tactics that were used and there are those that are still out there.

Talk a little bit about Marlon Green. He was an Air Force aviator hired by Continental in I think 1957, but they rescinded his offer and then it took about six years for it to go through the Supreme Court, and the ruling was in his favor and sent a very wide message to the US airline industry about hiring. And I think he started flying for Continental in 65. Is that right?

Roughly around that time. I'm not sure exactly on the exact year or date, but you look at his background, he was well qualified to be hired, but then when they found out he was black, they rescinded it. So that's when he engaged in the lawsuit that wound up making his way to the Supreme Court. But this industry was supposed to be all white. Curtis Collins, a congressman from Illinois. She knew some of us filed it, and we talked about the challenges, trials and tribulations. So a congressional study was initiated and the University of Pittsburgh did that study, and it showed that the airline commercial airline industry wants to be all white, not a janitor, not a baggage handler or anything.

Even down to that level,

Down to that level. The other piece is that the Airline Policy Association Alpha had a clause in its bylaws that if you were black, you could not be a member. So even if an airline did hire you, you were not allowed on the property. So it was no point in them hiring you.

That sounds like the American Bar Association sounds like the American Dental Association. There were so many professional organizations. I know for example, my grandfather was a dentist. He graduated from Howard in 1911 and was the first African-American licensed dentist in New Orleans, but he could not join the American Dental Association, so he had to go to their conventions and wait tables so that he could be in the room while the latest advances in dentistry were being discussed. So it sounds like the airline industry was right along the same lines as so many of the other professional organizations in this country in terms of their restrictive, restrictive covenants and whatnot.

Well, that was just a reflection of America, what it was all about. We were to serve others and we were not to advance and we would to have restrictions on what we could do, what professions to go into. Nevertheless, with that in place, there was no profession that we were not proficient in. And as a point of history from Pineville, Louisiana, there was a gentleman by the name of Charles Frederick Page who had a flying machine. It was a lighter than air, kind of like a balloon, but it had directional control as well as a propeller, so it could move and change directions rather than just go up like a hot air balloon and let the wind take it where it would. 1903, you had a patent. The patent was finally granted in 1906. Well, here was a black man who was born during enslavement, taught himself how to read and write, invented this flying machine, filed for a patent and eventually was granted a patent. So we've been in and around the industry for a long, long time.

Over the past three years or so, we've been hearing a lot about DEI, diversity, equity, and inclusion, and according to McKinsey and Company in the workplace, these are three closely linked values held by many organizations that are working to be supportive of different groups of individuals, including race, which is an artificial construct, but they list it, so I'll say it, ethnicities, religions, abilities, genders, and whatnot. With that being said, according to NBC, news Tech, billionaire and Tesla, CEO and SpaceX, founder Elon Musk has drawn a lot of recent criticism After he criticized efforts by United Airlines and Boeing to hire non-white pilots and factory workers, he claimed in a series of posts on X, that efforts to diversify workforces at these companies have made air travel less safe. Of course, he offered no evidence to support that claim because there is no evidence to support it, and he winds up getting into this exchange with people talking about it'll take an airplane crashing and killing hundreds of people for them to change this crazy policy. Do you want to fly in an airplane where they prioritize DEI hiring over your safety? And he then went on to say, this is actually happening. That post got 14 million views with just a few hours. I know you've got some ideas on the issue of DEI as well as some of Elon Musk's comments, and of course, we all know Elon Musk being a South African. He was obviously well-trained and well-versed. But your thoughts

Well, on the subject of DEI or as Elon Musk assembles, those D-I-E-V-I-E want to doc, first of all, when I hear the word diversity, basically it's a non-starter, and I don't like the term when it applies to black people, because black people have been in every industry. We have been from the White House to the outhouse, build a White House, build a capital, had engineers doing the building of the White House who were black, even though enslavement was the status of black folk in the country for the most part.

And to that point, design the city of Washington DC That's

Right, that's right.

Since you mentioned the capital in the White House design, the city of Washington DC after having designed the city of Paris.

Yes. Well, here you have us serving from the highest levels down to the lowest level and excelling. By the way, the first book on hospitality was written by a black man, and it is in the archives of the University of Massachusetts. Here's a successful man who basically set the standards for how you serve people in terms of accommodations as well as restaurant service. So we've been at the top of the games in every industry. We wouldn't have the space program that we have. We wouldn't have the internet that we have today. We wouldn't have self lubricating engines if it wasn't for black people wouldn't have turbocharges if it wasn't for black people.

(15:54)

Well, and to that point also, when you start looking at the categories and the qualifications or the demarcations within the categories, you start drilling down into, okay, you have 15 African-Americans. What positions do they hold? Is your CEO African-American is your CFO, African-American is your COO, African-American within your management structure and management chain within your elite classification of managers? Then all of a sudden we start to fight a different day.

Yes. One of the young fathers that I knew, he was asking me, I was flying for this company, he says, Clovis, why don't I have you as the chief pilot? I said, Hey, I don't have the complexion for the connection. So that ends that.

Did you fly President Mandela?

No, that was Captain Ray Doha.

Ray do. Oh, okay. Ray did that. Okay. Okay. Okay.

(18:13)

By no means things have changed. There are things that are different. There are some things that are better, but the underlying system has just changed. So we still have this system where the overarching piece is that we're encapsulated to only hold certain positions, and that of course depends upon the company and the culture of the company, but we don't have, for example, desegregation. You had that and then you have the opening of opportunities for the airline at for minorities and women were considered a minority. So there were more white women, higher than black pilots, and that's still the case today.

(20:05)

(21:03)

(21:59)

(22:50)

(23:42)

(24:51)

You're 21 years old, you're in the service, which is a hierarchical organization, and your instructor tells you that you need to leave the service and go play baseball.

Yes.

Where did you find the intestinal fortitude to manage that circumstance? By A, not punching him in the face, B, not saying anything derogatory to him and then punching him in the face. You see, I got to think about punching people in the favor, but no. So where did you get that ability to manage that circumstance to your favor, not your detriment?

Well, I learned firsthand about white racism and at four years old, and we had black insurance agents and white insurance agents come to the house to collect whenever that cycle was. And this one agent, he had a white car. My father had a black car, and so it happens that my father's car was parked in front of the house that day. He pulls up and he calls me over, and I was hesitant about going, but then I did go. He says, come over. I'm not going to hurt you. I'm not going to do anything to you. He says, put your hand on my car. And I hesitantly raised my hand. So he put my hand on his car. He said, how does that feel? I said, it feels okay. He said, now, go touch your father's car. So I put my hand on my father's car, and because it was about 11 o'clock in the day, sunshiny day in the summer, it was hot.

(27:02)

(28:34)

Because

This guy, if he's going to lie and say that I did something that I know I didn't do because I was meticulous about everything, but you just have to understand who you're dealing with.

That was my second question on this issue, which was the subjective nature of your instructor's evaluations. So knowing that in circumstances like you're articulating, there's the checklist that he would go through, but then there were also the subjective factors that would enable him to fail you if he so chose to because he didn't like the fact that you tied your shoes because you're right-handed versus tying your shoes because you're left-handed or whatever it might be. Speak to that, please.

Well, that was the case. In fact, one of my dearest friends who's now made transition, Robert B. Clark Jr. He and I started in the same class. We didn't graduate in the same class because Bob was terminated from flight training because his instructor said that he could not fly. However, Bob knew how to fly helicopters before he came to flight school. He had the syllabus, he knew everything, and he appealed it all the way to the Department of Army. And the base commander was asked to get involved. So he asked Bob, can you fly this helicopter? He says, yes. Well, let's go out to the airfield and let's go fly to the stage field to where your flight group is flying. He did. I mean, he was off for three months, got in the helicopter, flew out there, landed, and they went and talked to the flight commander. And also that instructor, that instructor was fired on the spot. Of course, the flight commander was trying to protect him because it was civilian pilots training us, and they were with Southern Airways based out of Birmingham, Alabama. So again, that cultural piece,

Was that Birmingham or Bombingham? Well, both. What year are we talking about?

We're talking about 1967.

Okay, we're talking Bombingham. Yes.

Yes. 1967.

Okay.

So you have people who don't want to see you there in the first place. And there was this rule, there's only going to be one black graduate per class, just one. I don't care how many start, there's only going to be one. But after complaints by Bob, by me and others about what the situation was, in fact, that was a program. You had these data sheets that you would answer your questions on when the final exam for any of the courses we were taking, and they could program things based on the way we were using social security numbers. Then even if we knew that we scored a hundred based on going down after the test was over and looking at what you had marked versus what the answers were, black pilots could only get in the eighties if you got everything right, you were in the low to mid eighties, you never got higher than 86 on any exam because if you were just average going through your flight training and you were excellent with your academics, you could wind up being in the running for honor graduate for that particular class.

(32:10)

What you just discussed in terms of taking the exams and the particular scoring parameters that were set. One of the things that both of my parents would say to me repeatedly, but my mother was incredibly emphatic, you have to be three times as good, four times as smart, and worked seven times as hard because you're black in America. And with that, you'll only get half as far. Because when it came to education and grades, my folks didn't play, and that was their thing. You have no idea how hard you are going to have to work to be successful because you are black in America. And what you just articulated is the living example. And the other thing, when I went to law school, what I found out my first year was if I was in a class, actually it was my second year, I was in a contract negotiating class and kicked everybody's butt in the negotiating rounds that we would go through, only got a B. And what I found out was the a's were reserved for the third year, students who needed that A, there were only going to be a certain number of a's awarded, and they were reserved for the third year students who needed that grade to increase their GPA.

Yeah. The thing is, this system was not designed by us. It's not a fair system, but we have to learn how to navigate it. And unfortunately, some of what I call the under 40 crowd, young people who are 40 and under, maybe I could increase the year by another five years or so, they came up thinking that things are fair, and it's all about your qualifications and your abilities, but there is a whole nother system that governs whether you get an opportunity, whether you succeed or whether you fail. The thing is you need to be aware enough to navigate those challenges. And some of my young people,

Well, you just said, be aware enough. And what I have found is a number of my contemporaries, they don't want to have these discussions with their kids. They don't want to. When I taught at Howard, I would say to my students, you got to be three times as smart and workforce. Many of them, they never heard that before. Dr. Leon, what are you talking about? Well, that's life in America. Oh, no, no, no, not anymore. Oh, Dr. Leon, you don't understand.

Well, that's the brainwashing. That's the brainwashing that's taking place. Yeah, it's example. I used to wear a P 51 pen and I'd paint the cockpit black, and that was several of those black pilots who did that, and that was just honoring the Tuskegee ever because they were the first to people in mass to show that we could do this. But you had pioneers like Eugene, Jacque Bullock, who was a World War I fighter pilot, had to go to Germany, not Germany, to France, France, France. But he caught a ride to France on a German boat, learned to speak German in route, and he wound up during World War II of being in the French Underground because he had a nightclub in Paris. And the German officers wanted to come and enjoy the entertainment and the music and the atmosphere. So he got a lot of intelligence that he passed on to the French Underground, and he and Charles de Gall were good friends, and he was given

Awards, the Legion of Merit.

Say again,

The French Legion of Merit.

Well, I'd have to do the research, but Charles Gall came to the US and he wound up coming back to us, and he was an elevator man for the NBC where the NBC studios were in New York, and he was interviewed, but his background is phenomenal, and I happen to know his grandson and other members of his family, a cousin,

(37:49)

(38:57)

You had as a Morehouse man, you had a relationship with Dr. King.

Yes, yes, I did.

If you could elaborate on that a little bit, please.

Yes. During the Albany movement, I would go down and listen to Dr. King's speech almost every night that I could. So I would catch a ride with teachers who lived in Albany, but worked in Dawson, walked to the church, and because we were young, they would put us young people right on the front row below the pulpit. And my minister of my church and Dr. King were Morehouse classmates. They graduated at the same time. So he said, well, when you see Martin again, you tell him I said, hello. I did. So that started a relationship with Dr. King and I, and after my tour in Vietnam, my foxo buddy invited me to Chicago to work on a political campaign, which I did, and that was this organization called the New Breed Committee. And they had a bunch of black organizations that were meeting with Dr. King on this one particular night when they were planning to march through downtown Chicago.

(41:17)

You do your tour in Vietnam, you go to Chicago, Dr. King asks you to lead a protest in Chicago. How did you reconcile what you fought for in Vietnam versus what you were subjected to when you got back home?

Well, during those days, it was tough with Vietnam veterans coming back didn't call us baby killers and spat on us. It was no reconciliation. Thing is is that Vietnam was dangerous. Being black in America was dangerous. So it was no different than walking through downtown Chicago for a purpose for black people in America than going to Vietnam, supposedly fighting for democracy when all they wanted to do was have their own independence. Because Ho Chi Minh came to America and he was trying to speak to the President of the United States, and that never did happen for whatever the reasons are. I mean, there are a number of stories as to why it never happened. And Ho Chi Minh lived in Harlem. He worked in a restaurant, but he lived in Harlem, so he understood the plight to black people in the country. That was one patrol we on. You have North Vietnamese out in the middle of nowhere, and they see that the unit is mostly black, wave at each other and keep going. Why are we going to fight each other out here? For what? So it was dangerous. It was dangerous in Vietnam. It was dangerous here in America because then as well as now you get in the wrong situation, in the wrong part of town, you can wind up dead.

You can wind up dead in the right part of town.

Well, look, you can wind up dead in your own house with no consequences. Nobody held accountable, nobody indicted. And Dr. King's last book, where Did We Go From Here,

Chaos or Community?

He said that shooting was the new lynching, and that is what we're living through right now.

I asked you that Vietnam question because I had an uncle, senior Master Sergeant George W. Porter, who was a Tuskegee Airman, an original and flew World War II and Vietnam, and I'm originally from Sacramento, California, and Uncle George lived around the corner. And so the Sacramento Kings honored him at a basketball game, and he could barely walk. By this time, he was about 89, maybe 90, he could barely walk. But when they played the national anthem, he stood up so fast and so erect. And so when it was all over, I said, oh, help me understand something. He said, what's that son? I said, how is it that with all that you went through? And he used to tell me all these stories about all the stuff that he was subjected to. I said, how is it after all that you went through, you still have the reverence that you have for this flag? And he looked at me like I had three heads, and he said, boy, that's my flag. I fought for that flag. I risked my life for that flag just because they want to claim it doesn't make it theirs. Do you understand me? Yeah, unc, I got it. And so that's why I asked you that question.

Well, just on the question of flags, black people live under a lot of different flags, but almost anywhere you go in the world, we're treat it the same. So just to me, a flag is just a marker. It is not something to be reverenced. Yeah. America treated me poorly in some instances, but America gave me opportunities as well. So just need to understand. This is where, to me, the principle that's going to liberate us all is where is the fairness? Where's the fairness in this whole process? Because you have communities that have been deliberately destroyed by local, federal, and state governments because black people were successful. Jacksonville, Florida, for an example, highway five, right through the black community, destroyed it. Other places,

Oakland, Detroit, Cleveland, urban Renewal, and the interstate highway system has decimated African-American communities.

Yes. And you have off ramps to get into the community, but you don't have on-ramps for people to leave the community to get back on the freeways.

The freeway in New Orleans that goes past, I don't remember the name of it, but it goes past the Superdome. Yeah. That's another example of how that has decimated the communities.

Yes, yes. And that's by design. And people talk about the government. Well, the thing is the government, you have to demand treatment from government, from anyone who have laws. And of course, you have to understand laws are things that are written on paper, but the real law is whatever that judge says, and you can appeal it if you want to, but you might fight for who knows how long and how many different appeals to different courts. But the laws, whatever that judge says, look at Plessy versus Ferguson. Separate, but equal is the law of the land. Then you have the 54 Brown versus Board of Education, no, separate. It is not equal. Okay. Same document, different judges. So when that happened, in my mind it's like, wait a minute. That's something not right about this whole picture because why you have the same document. Where is the fairness in all of that? What is really right? And now you have school desegregation, but you have most of the teachers a female, and they are not black. And you have this whole school system of charter schools being created by white women who didn't want their children to go to school with black children. So you still have people say, oh, we have overcome. Oh, it is better now. Yes, it's different, but in a lot of ways it's the same.

So what do you see as being the, if we look at the, again, I gave the data a little earlier, about 3% of commercial pilots are African-American. The system that they're flying under down does not seem to be that much different from the system that you flew under when you were in the commercial space.

Well, that's true. You have airlines having their own programs, which we tried to get them to do decades ago. They didn't do it until they have the critical pilot shortage. But it was oap that had the first US based flight training program from no Time to getting you into the commercial space. That was a venture between oap, the organization of Black Airline Palestine and Western University. With the support of Kellogg and the transportation department. You had foreign pilots being trained from no time to becoming first officers for British Airways, Emirates and United Arab Emirates, and Air Lingus and Ireland. I'm saying, well, wait a minute. Why don't we create a program where black people who want to become pilots, who have degrees go through the interview process, go through the testing process, and if they qualify and this meets the criteria for what the airlines want, then let's train them and let's move them into commercial airline space. Well, that program lasted until money was diverted from training black pilots to buying airplanes. And now the airlines are replicating what was done by BAP and University Western Michigan University.

Is there a sense of comradery today amongst black pilots that there was when you were coming through the system, or do many of them feel a sense of accomplishment and a sense of success and participation in the system to where that sense of comradery isn't deemed necessary? Hopefully that made sense.

Well, kind of both are true at the same time. Two opposites can be true at the same time. The younger group, if they kind of know each other, then there's that comradery, Hey, we're going to support each other. We're going to party together. Hey, we're going to have each other's backs when during the ups and the downs and all of that. But among those of us who came along early, we would talk about whoever was being put upon by the system or by that airline or by something we knew about it, and we would support, because if something was happening at one airline to a black pilot, we look for it to happen at our airlines. So how did we outmaneuver that? How did we navigate those systems? How did we learn from those challenges so that we wouldn't even be confronted with those issues?

(53:12)

(54:05)

(55:09)

I'm chuckling, I'm debating. I'm going to go ahead and bring this up. Just to your point. When the Willis situation developed in Atlanta, I did a show criticizing her for the horrific mistake that she made resulting in the process that she had to go through, and the weapon I took mostly from black women because all I was saying was that behavior is indefensible, especially at that level. She's playing at the level of the game where she's going after the former face of the empire.

Yes.

And I made the comment, you have now brought this on yourself. You couldn't keep your panties on, and homeboy can't keep his fly up, man, they came at me, but I hate black women. I have a colonized mind. Oh, who am I to? Oh, because one of the points I made was the community should not be tolerating this type of behavior. We don't want to go and tell our daughters or go and tell our sons that they're supposed to engage like this in the workplace. Oh, man. It was brutal. It was

Brutal. And you can attest to this. There's a course that you have in ethics in law school. So hey, where's that? I like the philosophy of Maynard Jackson, first black man of Atlanta. He says, his philosophy was if you are close enough to see the line that you're not supposed to cross, you're too close. And young people need to understand that, hey, you can take risks, but don't take risks on things that are going to come back and hurt you. We used to be told there's always somebody watching you and they were talking about God, the creators. There's always somebody watching you. Well, now there's always somebody watching you because you have these devices that your cameras can be turned on, microphones turned on track wherever you are.

And what was one of the things that they got her on? Cell phone records?

Yes.

Yes. Cell phone records. Yes. Well, you said that you only visited him so many. Oh, but his phone seemed to wind up in your driveway 55 times. Now, when I worked in corporate America, at one point, I taught sales ethics to the sales team, and my line to them was the appearance of impropriety in many instances could be worse than the impropriety itself. So just ask yourself, how does it look? And if it looks bad, it's going to be bad.

Simple enough.

Hey, simple enough. You and I did a show last week, and as a result of that show, you got a phone call from a young man who was very, very encouraged by what you had to say, a lot of which we have covered in this conversation. And he said to you that you, through your story, let him know he had a lot of work to do in his community. Could you elaborate on that, please?

Yes. Well, it's a group of us who are in narrative and learning about our history, understanding the principles, Africana studies that no matter where in the world you are, you're an African and your black person, and there's a whole system that's designed not to have you rise above a certain level. How do we recapture? When do we start our history? We started in 1619. We've cut ourselves out of millennia of culture, religion, spirituality, science, inscribed on the pyramid walls. Our people have depicted surgical instruments that are used to this day. So the Greeks did not invent medicine. Hippocratic was not the one who basically founded medicine, not the father of medicine. It was African folk folks that look like you and I. So with that, where's our mindset and what are we waiting on? So it encouraged him to do the work in the community.

(01:01:35)

(01:02:38)

Captain Clovis Jones, Jr. Thank you so much, sir. Thank you for your service. Thank you for your commitment. Thank you for your work. Thank you for joining me today.

You're more than welcome. It is my pleasure. And thank you for having me.

Well, I'm going to have you back, folks. Thank you so much for listening to the Connecting the Dots podcast with me, Dr. Wier Leon. Stay tuned for new episodes every week. Also, please follow and subscribe. Leave a review, share the show, follow us on social media. You can find all the links below in the show description. And remember, this is where the analysis of politics, culture, and history converge talk without analysis is just chatter, and we don't chatter on connecting the dots. See you again next time. Until then, I'm Dr. Wilmer Leon. Have a good one. Peace. Some lessons. I'm out

Connecting the dots with Dr. Wilmer Leon, where the analysis of politics, culture, and history converge.