Is it possible to be competitive and sustainable? Can leaders meet the needs of investors, employees, customers, and the environment? 

The guest of this episode of Pity Party Over is Beate Klingenberg, Professor of Sustainability and Supply Chain Management at FOM University of Applied Sciences for Economics and Management in Germany.

Professor Klingenberg’s professional interests combine two needs often viewed as antagonists in business: a short-term focus on efficient operations that meet quarterly quotas and a long-term sustainable strategy addressing the interests of all stakeholders. 

For Professor Klingenberg, a sustainable mindset combines systems thinking, ecological worldview, and emotional intelligence to develop leaders capable of driving organizations into the future.

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Sustainability Mindset Indicator by Isabel Rimanoczy and Beate Klingenberg

#sustainable #mindset #change #beateklingenberg #isabelrimanoczy #leadership #coaching #podcast #pitypartyover #stephenmatini #alygn

TRANSCRIPT

Stephen Matini: So, how is life in Germany?

Beate Klingenberg: How is life in Germany? A little bit too busy, which I know is a running theme for me, but, and part of it is myself because I never say no when something interesting comes my way. 

Besides, I'm also, I'm always, always acknowledging that in comparison to my previous always busy life as an academic, I also have a startup. And it is really taking a lot of time by now, and it's all exciting. It's all there is so much new, new experience and new things to think about, but it, the result is basically that all what I do is work.

Stephen Matini: Is your life now that different compared to your life in Italy when you lived in Florence or in the US?

Beate Klingenberg: It's different because the, the circumstances around me are different. I think if I compare first to Italy, simply the German-ish lifestyle is, is a little bit more orderly, I would say.

Stephen Matini: No way. Who would've thought ?

Beate Klingenberg: Yeah. I mean, surprise, . I'm actually missing my chit-chats going to the mad car or when I would go to my groceries on Saturdays or just going to a cafe where people know me, where you talk. 

And I haven't made those kind of connections here yet. A, because it takes time. I know at the Marcato Centrale, it took me probably between two and three years before the, the people were willing to talk to me because initially they just thought, well, yet another stranger, she'll be here for a month and then she'll be gone again. 

So they didn't put a lot of effort in creating a relationship. And it's the same here. Of course, even there, there is an open market twice a week where I go and I try to go to the same places, but it will take forever before they know me. 

And then if I compare to the us, the US has this largeness to it, because a, you have to do everything by car and the country. I mean, you've lived there. The country is just vast in comparison. And so everything is a little, yeah, is, is bigger. 

I think my lifestyle there was different in a sense that I, I was driving around with a car a lot, but I was definitely, and this is the surprising thing, but it, it's a little bit because I don't have a car. I think I was more in nature when I lived in the US to go for hikes. 

I haven't established routines here in where I'm now in Germany, because I live in, in the middle of a big city. I have a big park, right ten minutes from me, which is nice. But to really go into woods and hike for three, four hours, I have done maybe two or three times in the last year because I have to train, take a train to get out somewhere, and you can't reach all parts easily with public transportation. I'm happy that I don't have a car anymore, but my nature connection has been reduced since I'm in Germany. 

In Italy, it was also easier because Florence particular is a city where you can do a lot of hikes even within the city, and then you get out into the hills. Connection to nature is important for me. So maybe that contributes also to this feeling that I, I feel a little sterile where I am.

Stephen Matini: The word sustainability is a word that, even in the past when you and I talked, comes up a lot. That's a really important word to you. What does sustainability mean in Germany versus the U.S. versus Italy? How does it manifest differently?

Beate Klingenberg: First of all, the word for sustainability in, in Germany has a different connotation, but it's, it's more something that means to be, to do something very long lasting, to do something that is, that is reaching into the future. 

And in terms of em, embedment in society, you hear many more people talking about sustainability in, in Germany than in the U.S. particularly in the U.S. And I just have to walk out of my house where there is a little area for shopping at the street, and there is a shop where you can buy things without you bring your own containers so you can buy pasta and, and all sorts of other things, dry goods in your own containers. 

Then there is another shop that is called the, the rescue market, where they sell off overproduction or food that is already beyond their, their official edibility. And it's, but it's still good and obviously for very low prices. 

So you can see just with these two examples that you have a lot of solutions that are being offered and people are very conscious about climate change and talking about alternative transportation. The reason why I don't have a car is, is for me personally, because I don't want to have one. 

In fact, also right outside of my building is a parking lot where there are car sharing cars. I haven't tried the system out yet, but technically if I need one, I can make a reservation and, and hop on a car. 

In Italy. I think being in Europe also, there is a good understanding for sustainability and it manifests itself in, in different ways. Maybe people talk a little bit less about it as in Germany, but I remember this idea that in supermarkets or in markets, you only have the, the plastic bags for the fruit out of biodegradable plastics. It's a huge step forward. 

In Germany, I think it's again, this the German word would be grundsätzlichkeit (principle), this fundamentalism that people always want to have these deep discussions and it's easier to move forward and to do something, I think in Italy because people just do it.

Stephen Matini: Do you remember the first time that the word sustainability entered your life?

Beate Klingenberg: I would think probably towards the turn of the century, because prior to that, at least what I recognized is more that we talked about pollution, environmental protection, and that of course goes back into the 1970s that those discussions were there for even into the 1960s for the longest time. 

But this more overarching idea of sustainability, which doesn't only include looking out for the environment, but it has a strong aspect of social justice in there with a recognition that if we're not fair to each other, we will never be able to protect also the environment because poor people simply don't have, if I make it quite simple, they don't have the time to think about, is this good that I use this thing in plastic or, or not, because their life is simply just about the basics. 

The concept of sustainability is really more overarching, and I think the first conference I went to that literally had the topic, sustainability must have been around the beginning of the century, doesn't mean that it didn't exist before, but that was about, so a little bit more than 20 years ago that entered my life.

Stephen Matini: When people hear the word sustainable, it means different things to different people, and often times evokes scenarios of climate change, the whole environmental issue and such and such. What I love about your background is the fact that you focus on operations, you focus on supply chain and those reasoning, those area often times are about optimizing, it's about saving money, it's about how to be more profitable. So how do you combine based on your experience and sustainability with areas such as operations and supply chain?

Beate Klingenberg: If I look at the, the consumption sector, we're basically flooded with products to make that really more sustainable in the sense that we look more for the resources of the planet that we use for these products, we look at if there is a circularity that we, these this materials that are being used come back into the productive cycle. 

We go to the basics. How can I make a, a container for water more sustainable? Only when I ask myself from the very beginning, what is this product actually going to be? How am I going to design it? How am I going to produce it, and how much can I think of the, here's this, I know plastic is always an easy example, but what happens to this plastic bottle when it's finished? 

If we start at that early stage, there is a concept that is called cradle to cradle means the cradle is the, the moment when a product is even conceived, not even produced yet, but the product idea that's already when we should start thinking.

It's like, what will happen to this product when the consumer doesn't use it anymore? And then the question, do we even need this product that should even come before? Which of course here I'm being a little radical because I I really think we have way too many products, but that's let's not go there. 

But for me, the practical thinking is like we're producing so many things, that's where we need to start. What is this product, what it is supposed to be, and how can I create it that it is the least impactful and uses the least resources and still fulfills the need that the potential client wants to have fulfilled.

Stephen Matini: In your opinion, what could be for an organization that decides to be more sustainable, the first step in that direction?

Beate Klingenberg: A profound reflection of their values. When I say profound, really to the deepest sense of looking at humanity and asking, what is this product for? What does it serve? 

And I'm going to refer to a concept that I am encountered a couple of years ago, which is called the sustainability mindset. This has been developed by a researcher whom I know by now very well, Isabel Rimanoczy, and she developed it based on talking with business leaders that were by themselves without stakeholder pressure, but just out of their own interest turning their organizations to be more sustainable. 

And then the interesting thing, and this was very, very insightful for me coming from this practical operations and supply chain discipline, is that yes, there is a piece to it that in this concept of the mindset is called the ecological worldview. 

So you have to understand all these ecological consequences, but then there is a big component that is called systems thinking, which in engineering disciplines is not a difficult thing because sys engineers are trained to think in systems, but business people often are not. 

Two components that when I heard about it for the first time, surprised me, and one is emotional intelligence and the other one is spiritual intelligence. And at the beginning I was thinking it's like, yeah, okay, maybe nice to have, but when I say profound over the years, I, I really came to realize there is big need for exactly that, this understanding and not emotional intelligence in the sense of Daniel Goleman who wrote a lot about it, although his, his work is very important, but more in the sense of understanding how my emotions actually impact my decisions towards sustainability. 

And the spiritual intelligence is of course a piece that is very personal. Everybody can develop their own spirituality and their own sense of it, and for one person it will be rooted in a certain religion, and for another person, it's simply meditation and, and concentrating on the self. There are, there are many, many variations, but that is important for me today to ask this question, what is the real value of what I'm doing?

Of course, that is a type of change for organizations that is really deep or do we want to be, how do we want to be part of this productive cycle of our economy? What I've learned also really working also for myself on this mindset is that we humans always talk about we are human and there is nature and we separate the two to a certain extent that it's nature against us or we against nature. And I think that's profoundly incorrect because we are nothing else than a species on this planet. 

We're not better or worse than the amp that crawls around on the floor looking for for food. We just developed a different level of intelligence that unfortunately allows us to destroy, I, I'm not familiar, I wouldn't say there, there doesn't exist one, but I'm not familiar with any other species on the planet that does that, that purposefully removes resources and uses them for something and then you can't reuse them again because the, the resources on the planet are not infinite. Eventually they're gone. 

So this profound recognition that we are just a little piece in a system. We are not the controllers, we are just a piece. And that makes a difference in, I would think, how you look at how you consume things, how you live your life. Nothing in this concept of the mindset is normative. Nobody says, you must do this, you must think like that. But there is, yeah, this deep sense of being connected to our natural environment because we are simply a part of it and that that changes perspectives tremendously.

Stephen Matini: To me, the ability of adopting a sustainable mindset probably is a transition from being a manager to being a leader, because you talk about values, you're talking about having a, a vision, you're talking about an organization that has a soul. 

One of the hardest bump that I see people going through is when they understand that operations is not enough, you know, to have an eye on this quarter, being able to meet the number is not necessarily the only strategic thing that you need to do. 

You really need to have a much larger perspective or you won't be able to survive in this competitive marketplace with things changing all the time. Why should I give any thought to what you just mentioned, all these important elements? Is just that it is a strategic, it is a strategic thing to do.

Beate Klingenberg: Yeah, definitely. It, it's of course if you read the quarterly reports of firms, you, you think, yeah, okay, sustainability, we do a little bit of ESG reporting, it's all fine. We try to reduce our carbon footprint, but it's not enough. 

Prerequisite is a realization that the impact humans have on the planet is unbalancing to the way we are living at the moment. What we're doing right now is not, it's not sustainable for the next a hundred years. A lot of things will change and they're already changing. I'm a manager or I'm a leader, I develop a vision that is more systemic and that is more looking into these many, many different aspects that a true sustainable mindset requires. 

And it's a journey. It's not something that happens in one step. In the theory of the (sustainable) mindset, there are 12 principles, but even if we go beyond the, the structure, I regularly go back depending on things that happen to me on a daily life, and I question myself like, is is this consistent with what I really want to be to put the focus? First of all, what do I want to be before saying what is it that I want to do?

Stephen Matini: It's like we're going through a paradigm shift in the way we approach management. There was such a focus on task that eventually shifted with human relations on people. And now we are talking more about really the context. How did you come up with the idea of the assessment, the sustainability mindset indicator?

Beate Klingenberg: I do agree paradigm shift is exactly the right the right word. The lady that I mentioned, Isabel Rimanoczy that developed the sustainability mindset as a framework, she approached me about two and a half years ago. We had met on conferences and she asked me that she would like to develop something that we can actually assess where a person's mindset is. 

And she had already thought a little bit about how to do it in terms of a type of questionnaire, like other personality assessment tools exist. She's a psychologist, so she's also very familiar with these kind of frameworks. But we try to come up with phrases and with statements that allow to connect to the 12 principles that I mentioned that so basically we, we have for each of the 12 principles, three sets of statements where you can decide if a statement represents you or not. And why three, because we also try to assess the emotional as well as the cognitive and the behavioral aspect of a principle. 

Who doesn't know about air pollution or pollutions through through industrial agriculture. It's just something we read about, but knowing about it doesn't necessarily mean that we do something about it. It seems like people only start to become active if they also engage their emotions, but if we assess these three for each of the principles, we get a snapshot, or it's the mapping of the place where you are on your journey towards a mindset. 

Based on these questions we developed, of course there is an algorithm behind it, but you get a, a report, you get a personal report that guides you if you want to try it, to proceed on this journey. Nothing is normative, so also you don't get a score. It's not like, wow, you have 90 out of a 100, because that's not, that's not productive in that context because we want to have a paradigm shift and we want to guide people in this paradigm shift if they're willing to, to take that journey.

The report is about thirty pages, so it's an enormous amount of material. There are some graphs that show you where, which aspects are less developed than others. So you can first focus on that part. You can jump back and forth in the report and see what speaks to you at a certain phase in your life and what you want to work on.

And around that we developed training programs. We started with training programs for educators because originally we thought that the assessment tool would be very useful in the development of leaders in the, in the academic context in universities. And now we're reaching out towards the coaching community because we think that there's also a huge interest in coaches to learn how they can help their clients in turn to develop such a mindset and to become leaders, as you said, yourself, leaders towards sustainability.

Stephen Matini: If someone starts gaining a greater awareness about being a sustainable, what would you say that would be some of the practical benefits on a personal and a professional level? What would I see?

Beate Klingenberg: At the end there is much more satisfaction with what you're actually doing. You're not just going somewhere, working your eight hours, and at the end of the day, you're coming home, you're happy about your paycheck. 

If I go back to what I said before, this understanding of the connectedness of us with our natural environment and us as people, if, if I can go to work and I can say what I did today is actually meaningful, not only in the sense that I produced something somebody else can buy or I offered a service somebody needed, but that it connected to the, to the essence what we are to the human side of us, it will be much more satisfactory to be more the person instead of just being the hamster in in the wheel.

Stephen Matini: I had a big question for you. Well, it's big and it's not. What do you hope to leave behind with your work?

Beate Klingenberg: It doesn't matter that my name or I am attached to something, but it’s ... I think it would be a very good feeling for me simply to know that something has gotten into motion that people start to think differently. 

I'll give you an example. I actually used the sustainability mindset principles as well as the indicator in the class in the fall semester. The students used the indicator, so I knew a little bit what the group looks like as a total. I did certain exercises, interventions, discussions with them, and at the end they wrote reflective essays. 

And in the reflective essays I could read that I've actually reached some of them. Some of them started to state as like, I'm after this class, I'm looking at my studies in a different way. I'm looking at my world in a different way. I'm starting to question my own behaviors. I'm starting to listen more to myself, various aspects where just feels, I guess something was set into motion that makes me, I feel, I feel glad for that person that I was able to trigger something.

Stephen Matini: That feeling you are describing, I describe it as the gentle reminder, that awareness, that feeling that I will not be forever. I want to enjoy it as much as possible, this whole path, as long as it will be, and hopefully is going to benefit people, they're gonna stay here longer that I do. 

It's not something that makes me feel sad, but it's nice. It's a warning of using my time in a way that is mindful, is productive, you know, not just doing, doing, doing, but also being and allowing other people to beat someone of value. 

You are truly one of those few people that I know that have had the courage to change. When you think about hard moments in your life, when you felt stuck, you know, in a rut, were there anything that you specifically did to get out of, of being trapped there?

Beate Klingenberg: That's not an easy question to answer, because sometimes the process wasn't entirely conscious from being in a situation that was really awful to suddenly being able to reach out and, and do something. 

Quite a few years ago, I, I would think at least 12, 13, 14 years ago, two colleagues of the university in the U.S. were worked convinced me to go rock climbing with them. I was very athletic at the time, so they said, oh, you can do that. We went once into a climbing center where there was just a, a wall, like 10 meters. 

And I actually, I thought, this is interesting because you have to be a little technical. You have to be a little strategic, and it's entirely satisfactory if you're up there. The only part I didn't like is that I had to get down again because I actually am, I don't like heights.

So they took me out after that on a real rock, and they had organized a guide. They were experienced climbers, but they, they said, okay, we want somebody else with us. What they didn't tell me is that the climb they had prepared for me to do was hundred meters . 

They just let me start and they said, anytime you don't feel like it, we can go back down. And eventually we came to a point, there were a lot of trees, so it was just straight up, absolutely straight up. I didn't really see what was happening. I was like, okay, we're going up. We're going up. And then I had to move myself around the corner of the rock, and it was suddenly in the open. And then it was a very difficult move I had to make. It was a very high grab, and then I had to pull myself up and I didn't make it.

The guide was ahead of me and my two colleagues were under me, and they said, well, we can go down, but it's going to be difficult at this stage. And then the guy had said, okay, let you, you sit in this harness and you said, let dangle just for a while, don't ... relax your muscles. So I was dangling in my seat, some probably 60, 70 meters above ground. And then I said, okay, I'll try it again. 

And I did, and it worked and my colleagues later said, they were absolutely convinced that we had to go down at this stage. They were so amazed that I got my strengths together in a way and pull myself out, literally speaking. And I think, although this is not a very precise answer to your question, that's what it is. At some point, there is a collection of energy and, and willingness inside me  that say, okay, this has to stop, or I have to do something.

It was this suddenly listening to myself and realizing somewhere inside myself, there is the strength to do it. And it's not that I necessarily think specifically, oh, what am I gonna do? What am I gonna do? But I let things flow. And that's very often when that moment happens where I can then say, okay, now, now there is this piece of strength I should add to that, that I did a lot of martial arts in my life, so I know about the chi, about the center of your energy. And then it's suddenly theres, then it's suddenly ready and it will not be easy, but you say, okay, now I can do the next step and pull myself out.

Stephen Matini: And maybe to find the strength, as you said, you need to dangle a little bit ...

Beate Klingenberg: Yeah. Yes. There needs to, there needs to be, I mean, the dangling was entirely scary. I have to be very, very very honest. It's, even when I talk about it, I get sweaty hands. It was a scary moment, and I said, oh, now we have to go down all of that, so I better, I better try to get me out of this situation. 

The recognition that something is happening to yourself that is really, really not good for you, even if it's difficult to try to change it, that at the end you know it will be better. Or it's like peeling layers of stuck-ness away from you, and with every little layer you get out of the energy increases, of course.

Stephen Matini: Is there anything that you would like the people that listen to this conversation to take away?

Beate Klingenberg: I think specifically when you asked about change and how to help yourself in difficult situations, then I think it's the suggestion to trust yourself that it's possible to find the energy inside yourself, and it will take time potentially to find it particular if you're not used to it. 

I'm thinking again, of these aspects of spirituality in the sustainability mindset. It's really that, it's like asking yourself, who am I? This being aspect, trusting yourself that there is something inside your, your being that you can trigger if you want to change. And then being trustful that there are people around you that are most likely willing to help you in whichever way it takes, be it practical or just talking or psychological support, whatever it may be.

Stephen Matini: A sustainable pace, that changes from person to person. And I believe recognizing what your pace is is absolutely crucial.

Beate Klingenberg: Yes, you're absolutely right with that. A person who's slower in taking the steps to change should not feel discouraged because somebody else is capable of doing something similar in a much faster pace.

Stephen Matini: You are one of the most fabulous people that I know. Thank you so much for these amazing thoughts that I'm so sure are going to warm a lot of people. Thank you so much.

Beate Klingenberg: Thank you, Stephen. That's a big, big thing that you just said, .

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