Buy the book here: https://gum.co/dont-say-that/podcast-special
Michael's pluralsight courses here: https://www.pluralsight.com/authors/michael-callaghan

Rough Transcript (powered by Otter.ai)
George Stocker  0:00  
Hi, I'm George Stocker, and this is the build better software podcast. Today I have the pleasure of talking with Michael Callahan, lead software engineer at Walt Disney World. And I want to welcome you to the show.

Michael Callaghan  0:11  
Thank you, George, happy to be here.

George Stocker  0:13  
So for the those of us who may not know about you, or what you do, tell us a little bit about yourself,

Michael Callaghan  0:19  
where can I start, I am halfway through my third decade of professional software development. It was way back in the ninth grade in buoy High School. When the data processing teacher, we actually had that class, took pity on me, and allowed me to essentially use her dumb terminals in the classroom after school to teach myself basic. That led to a love for computers and software that never really waned. Even though it was about 10 years after graduation, before I got my very first paid software development gig. And I even got burned out in the late 2000s. Well, mid mid to late 2000s. And didn't work for three years in the industry. And fortunately, that that changed. And I'm now in my 10th year at Disney with Disney Parks experiences and products, where I build what we call cast facing web applications.

George Stocker  1:28  
So applications for the internal employees that work at Microsoft, or not Microsoft at Disney,

Michael Callaghan  1:35  
correct. As you may or may not be aware, Disney Parks refers to their employees as cast members, because the entire place if you will, is the metaphor as a as an ongoing show. So even us, we were called backup house cast members, because we're never on stage.

George Stocker  1:53  
And now you have a book that just came out, which I had the privilege to read. It's called "Don't Say That at Work". Tell us a little bit about that.

Michael Callaghan  2:00  
What can I tell you about that, as you can probably imagine, if you've done anything for any length of time, you're going to make a lot of mistakes. Hopefully you recover from those mistakes and learn from them. This book is about some of what I consider the more egregious errors that I've made over my career, and some cases, mistakes that somebody else might have made or things that I've observed. And I just decided to put them down in essay form, came up with 20 topics and went ahead and publish the book. So far, it's been well received. 

George Stocker  2:36  
Now, before we dive deeper into your background, I want to dive a little bit into the book. And in the book you talk about not only, you know, mistakes that that you've made, but also things that both software engineers and software leaders should be aware of. And you have a story in it about about one of your bosses, can you go deeper into that story

Michael Callaghan  2:57  
I mentioned a few different bosses in the story is which one he is talking about in particular,

George Stocker  3:03  
it was it was a boss that was not was not altogether truthful.

Michael Callaghan  3:09  
That was a fun experience, because that was very early in my career. And so I was still naive, wet behind the ears, whatever phrase you want to use. And I never had a college degree, at least not at that point. I was a University of Maryland computer science dropout twice. So when I got my very first software development job in 1995, I felt very fortunate that someone was willing to give me a chance without a degree. That did not turn out too well. And then I got my second job. And that was this particular boss. Not only did he not give me the job that he hired me to do, which was that of a Macintosh developer. And yes, I was a Mac developer before it was cool back when we used Pascal. But not only did he not give me the job that he had hired me to do a few years into the into the job, I want to say bout a year and a half, maybe two years. He asked me to falsify my resume. Because what he would do was send resumes of his employees when he when he would bid on a job. So we were as we were an independent software development shop. And he would go and bid on different development projects, bring them back in house, and then he would manage the project. So this particular client wanted only college graduates to work on their project. And that's their prerogative. I didn't have a degree. And when I pointed that out to him, and he did two things very quickly. One he got annoyed with me for not having a degree even though he knew that and then second, he went ahead and modified my resume to say that I had a computer science degree when he sent it to the client. As you can imagine, I didn't take that very well. But this is my my boss. This is my livelihood, doing what can you do about it. Eventually, I decided that I couldn't in good conscious, keep working for this guy. So I started looking for other jobs. So I went ahead and submitted my resignation and turned over the key to the office and walked out the door, essentially.

George Stocker  5:16  
But that's not the end of it, is it?

Michael Callaghan  5:17  
It is not.

You have read the book. So right after I resigned, I thought we were on pretty good terms. He sent me an email that said, Hey, would you mind signing this affidavit? I just need something for, for the record saying that, you know, you officially quit and you don't have any company property. And then you're not going to solicit any of our clients or, or employees to try to poach them. I was good with that I looked through it didn't seem to be anything scary in there. So I signed it to the back a day or two later, I was cleaning out my desk, at home, my work from home desk, and I found a couple of CDs that obviously belonged to my employer, my former employer. So I sent off a quick email to him, I said, hey, I've got these CDs. I must have overlooked them. If you want, I can bring them by the office sometime, put them in the mail, whatever you want, set them aside. didn't think anything more about it. That Saturday, I got a priority overnight, FedEx letter from his attorney, accusing me of stealing, not only the CDs, but also source code, and informing me that I was now the subject of both civil and criminal investigations.

George Stocker  6:31  
And so at that point, how are you? How are you feeling like to get that that letter petrified,

Michael Callaghan  6:38  
absolutely terrified. And here I am, I've got a wife in a newborn, I think my son was about 18 months old, maybe close to two years. And here I am being told that I'm going to be arrested and thrown in prison. Because I committed perjury by saying that I hadn't kept any company property. But you

George Stocker  6:57  
did the right thing, and that you engage the lawyer in this kind of entertainment that ever gets in the situation. talk to a lawyer before you do anything. And you talk to a lawyer and a lawyer. I did

Michael Callaghan  7:07  
talk to a lawyer. But keep in mind, it was Saturday. There was no Google there wasn't really much of an internet in 1997. To speak of. So I there wasn't a lot of research I could do there wasn't, I couldn't go to a website and ask questions or, you know, legal online forums, I had to go to the Yellow Pages for New Hampshire, find a lawyer pretty much at random, and wait until Monday. So I had to wait two whole days, not knowing what was gonna happen. And then Monday morning, I called someone that I had foun...