In the first episode of our “Driving Leadership” series, Emergent’s Bill Berthel speaks with Professor James Rolling, who discusses the impact of creativity on leadership and the influence of “swarm intelligence” in developing effective leaders.

Driving Leadership – A Conversation with James Rolling

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Even leaders have leaders. And sometimes it’s challenging for leaders to express concerns and offer feedback to those at a higher level of leadership. The solution lies in learning to lean into the inevitable discomfort of sharing your perspective with whomever needs to hear it, regardless of their position, and in creating conditions throughout the organization that allow others to feel safe in doing the same. Listen as Ralph and Bill discuss and make suggestions to help you “lead up” effectively.
 

 
Prefer to read the transcript?
*Note: The following text is the output of transcribing from an audio recording. Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases may be incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors
 

 
Bill Berthel: Welcome to the Get Emergent podcast. This is the space where we discuss leadership and team organizational topics and better practices. We like to provide concepts and ideas that you can turn into pragmatic experiments to help you develop your higher potential in your work and in your leadership. I’m Bill Berthel.
Ralph Simone: And I’m Ralph Simone.
Bill Berthel: Ralph today’s topic of leading up means a lot to me. You know, I’ve, in my past, and maybe still do to some extent, I hold back a little bit. You know, I’ve kind of bitten my tongue on a good idea or I won’t speak up. And it’s usually out of concern or even as strong as a fear. I’m afraid of the other person’s reaction, whether it’s my boss, whether that’s my partner, whether it’s my colleague. Right. I’m holding back.
Ralph Simone: I think it’s normal. I think we all do it to a certain extent, and I think part of it could be fear based. Part of it’s the power dynamic.
Bill Berthel: Yes.
Ralph Simone: In the context of the work we do with organizations, I think leading up can be a scary proposition because we don’t know how it’s going to land with our boss or we don’t know if it will be well received. But it’s a vital practice because what we know with our work with emotional intelligence, the higher up in an organization you go, the least amount of meaningful feedback you get. So how are you going to make good business decisions and choices if you don’t have all the information? So I think this is a vital practice to make people less uncomfortable. I’m not going to say make them comfortable. And I think part of leading up is leaning in the discomfort of sharing your perspective with whomever needs to hear it.
Bill Berthel: Yeah, I like reframing it, maybe away from comfort, more towards more practiced. I might not get comfortable with it in the end, but more practice will provide more familiarity with this.
And can you unpack just for a second for me, this idea that the higher up in an organization you go, you may be getting less meaningful feedback? Is that what you said?
Ralph Simone: Yeah, I think people hedge their bets. I think they’re reluctant, and this could be because of baggage they bring from other organizations, but I think they’re reluctant to let the emperor know that he or she has no clothes on. And it could be that the organization doesn’t have enough psychological safety.
Bill Berthel: Sure.
Ralph Simone: Yeah. My kids challenged me on this because they said, dad, you seem to remember all these stories when you spoke up a lot. How about the times you didn’t. Obviously, those aren’t the stories I’m telling. I know there were plenty of times that I have bitten my tongue and that sa

Leading Up

 

 
You’ve probably heard the saying “I wouldn’t ask anyone to do anything I wouldn’t do myself.” Perhaps you’ve said it yourself. But is it actually a sustainable leadership philosophy? After all, as leaders, we can’t possibly do everything ourselves. In fact, that’s precisely why we have teams. And it’s not practical to think leaders on their own can keep pace with the exponential changes shaping every industry today. If this hits home for you, this episode is a must-listen.
 

 
Prefer to read the transcript?
*Note: The following text is the output of transcribing from an audio recording. Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases may be incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors
 

 
Bill Berthel: Welcome to the Get Emergent podcast. This is the space where we discuss leadership team and organizational topics and better practices. We like to provide concepts and ideas that you can turn into pragmatic experiments to help you develop your higher potential in all of your work and your leadership. I’m Bill Berthel
Ralph Simone: And I’m Ralph Simone
Bill Berthel: Ralph, I’m excited to talk about this idea of old school credibility. You know, we hear the declaration, I wouldn’t ask anyone to do something I wouldn’t do from leaders.
Ralph Simone: Really I would. I built a whole career on doing that.
Bill Berthel: Well, you’re maybe more a progressive guy than some people we work with, but I agree with this topic when it comes to ethics and morals. Right. I would not ask anyone to do something I wouldn’t be willing to do from an ethical and a moral perspective. But I don’t think that’s what folks are saying. They’re really talking about this idea that, you know, if I’m not a subject matter expert in this space, I’m not going to have credibility to lead others. And I’m really excited to introduce Geoff Storm.
Geoff is with us today. Geoff is with us every recording.
Ralph Simone: Yes.
Bill Berthel: But today we asked him to join us in this conversation because as we were preparing, he had some beautiful examples of this in his career. Geoff welcome.
Geoff Storm: Thank you very much. It’s a pleasure to be here. on the mic this time, I guess.
Bill Berthel: Yeah, yeah.
Ralph Simone: So we already has the better voice.
Bill Berthel: Well, Geoff does have a voice for radio, but he’s got a handsome face too. So he’s not one of those guys with just a face for radio. But Geoff is our support from MPW and he is our recording technician. And Geoff it’s awesome to have you here every time, but to hear your voice today and your examples of where this has shown up in your career.
Could you share with us a little bit what you were sharing with Ralph and I earlier about how you felt in your leadership role?
Geoff Storm: I said, as soon as you started to sort of lay out what your plan was for today and where you were going to go with this podcast, I just kind of chimed in and said, this one really hits home for me because as you alluded to, my background is actually in this sort of thing, recording video, audio, that kind of thing. And then I went, twelve years ago now, I came to work for MPW, which is a full service advertising agency. So I mean, there are many people in that organization who do things that I cannot do, that I still, after twelve years, cannot do. They have skill sets and knowledge bases that are beyond the scope of mine. And suddenly I was in a leadership role with these people on

Old School Credibility

 

 
There really are patterns in life. Effective leaders can recognize those patterns and use them to optimize the performance of their teams. Listen as Bill and Ralph give examples of patterns you can exploit to enhance your leadership – and how to do it.
 

 
Prefer to read the transcript?
*Note: The following text is the output of transcribing from an audio recording. Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases may be incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors
 

 
Bill Berthel: Welcome to the Get Emergent podcast. This is the space where we discuss leadership team and organizational topics and better practices. We like to provide concepts and ideas that you can turn into pragmatic experiments to help you develop your higher potential in your work and your leadership. I’m Bill Berthel.
Ralph Simone: And I’m Ralph Simone. And Bill, I’m fascinated with this topic today because I have no idea what it means.
Bill Berthel: Ah, you do. You do.
Bill Berthel: Once we get into the conversation, you’re gonna.
So the title of you’re not paranoid, there are patterns, right? It’s really about looking for and looking at the patterns. The reference to paranoia, right? Paranoia is defined as an ability or a sensing of patterns and sequences. Typically, the paranoid think those patterns are out to get them, right. It’s a negative thing, but we’re going to flip that. There really are patterns in our life, in the world. The way things are structured and really effective. Leaders can read those patterns and utilize them in their leadership to optimize the results of their teams and their organizations. That’s what we’re talking about today.
Bill Berthel: I love it.
Ralph Simone: I’d actually like rather look at that paranoia as an intuition, so much.
Bill Berthel: Is that right? It’s this beautiful ability to tap into that, right? We can take cues from the patterns and the models that are around us when we start to see that, whatever you believe in, intelligent design, divine creation, nature’s blueprint, right? These are all possible sources. Wherever these patterns come from, they’re abundantly around us. They’re very real. They’re very real.
What kind of patterns would leaders be looking for or uncovering in their organizations
Ralph Simone: Preston, I’m curious, what kind of patterns would leaders be looking for or should they be looking for or uncovering in their organizations?
Bill Berthel: I can think of three specific to leadership and really talk about those kind of meta, patterns or models, if you will. But we’ll give some specific examples. But just think about the simplicity of most people on this planet live somewhere where there’s a change of seasons, right? We experience that pattern, right? Especially here in the northeast of the United States. We have four pretty distinct seasons. I guess our winters are getting more mild and our summers might be getting hotter and drier, but still pretty distinct seasons. Summer always follows spring, winter always follows autumn. While not completely forecastable, we can understand whether patterns each season will bring. So a really simple model of patterns most of us could relate to. We can look at just about any leadership model that’s been published for patterns. So the Harvard business School is notorious for their two by two models, right? Almost every theory Harvard provides follows, that specific pattern right. Plotted on a quadrant and x y axes gives us four different dynamics to think a

You’re Not Paranoid, There are Patterns

 

 
In the context of today’s episode, AI means more than artificial intelligence. It means Applied Impact. Listen as Ralph and Bill demystify artificial intelligence and discuss ways to harness technology to drive productivity and make a positive impact on your leadership and within your organization.
 

 
Prefer to read the transcript?
*Note: The following text is the output of transcribing from an audio recording. Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases may be incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors
 

 
Bill Berthel: Welcome to the Get Emergent podcast. This is the space where we discuss leadership team and organizational topics and better practices. We like to provide concepts and ideas that you can turn into pragmatic experiments to help you develop your higher potential in your work and in your leadership. I’m Bill Berthell.
Ralph Simone: And I’m Ralph Simone.
Bill Berthel: So, Ralph, we’re going to talk about AI today. That’s a pretty hot topic.
Ralph Simone: Yes, it is. And, you know, I was a front-runner on AI. I have to tell you this. You, in m my old consulting days, I remember this is 1520, maybe 30 years ago, I was talking to my wife about AI, and she goes, what’s that stand for? I said, artificial intelligence. She goes, well, you ought to be pretty good at it because you got what I would describe as artificial intelligence and spades, my friend. So I was always interested in it.
Bill Berthel: But today, we are going to talk.
Ralph Simone: A little bit about artificial intelligence, but I’m looking at it from a little bit different angle, and this may help demystify AI, but applied impact. So when we think about AI and coaching, our, work with leaders, we’re thinking about the applied impact. I think the same thing holds true with artificial intelligence. I think are so nervous, and some of that nervous, probably rightfully so, because there’s a trend that over the next, right? In seven or eight years, millions of jobs will be changing or potentially eliminated.
Bill Berthel: Right, right.
Ralph Simone: But I think that there will be other jobs that will be created, and there will be other opportunities, and I think there will be other opportunities to really get the applied impact out of all this AI buzz. That’s what I’m kind of excited about.
Bill Berthel: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there are centuries of changes in technology, right. Something usually, you know, is the predecessor to the technology we have now. And there’s often some legitimate resistance to that change. Right. There might be some fear of the way in which I do something is going to go away, or I think in this case, it’s really close to the human element possibly being compromised or taken away from some work.
Ralph Simone: Trey, it was interesting. I hadn’t thought about this, but as you know, and I’m very excited about this year, hopefully have a book coming out slow down to go faster. Yeah, yeah. And the applied impact of utilizing AI in the process. And this is a story that I know you’ve heard before, but I’m probably a better speaker than writer. I, tend to be clearer, perhaps tighter in my spoken word than in my written word. And I remember I’ve been working on this book for a number of years, and a breakthrough came from my son coaching me. He saw me grinding out. I would dedicate 90 minutes, four days a week to work on this because I read somewhere that, you know, if you’re going to write a book, you have to spend time writing every day. And he was lookin

Redefining AI

 

 
Today’s advice: limit the essential elements of your leadership to a vital few. Listen as Ralph and Bill discuss the critical importance of focus, and learn how you can sharpen your focus to optimize your leadership, and ultimately energize your team or organization.
 

 
Prefer to read the transcript?
*Note: The following text is the output of transcribing from an audio recording. Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases may be incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors
 

 
Bill Berthel: Welcome to the Get Emergent podcast. This is the space where we discuss leadership, team and organizational topics and better practices. We like to provide concepts and ideas that you can turn into pragmatic experiments to help you develop your higher potential in your work and your leadership. I’m
Bill Berthel.
Ralph Simone: And I’m Ralph Simone.
Bill Berthel: So, Ralph, we’re talking about the topic of focus.
Ralph Simone: I love this topic.
Bill Berthel: You do?
Bill Berthel Simone: Oh, yeah. This is what I call one of my natural gifts, one of my unique strengths, the ability to focus.
Bill Berthel: Well, I’m ready to learn a lot from you because I see it as a, pretty significant gap for myself. So I’m excited about this one.
Ralph Simone: I think the gap exists for all of us, including me. But I want to start with a story because I think this story, coming from a client experience, puts this in perspective. The challenge that we have. I was doing a meeting between a manager and a leader who we are coaching. And they had three goals for the coaching process. One was to improve their ability to hold others accountable.
Bill Berthel: Okay.
Ralph Simone: The second was to get their arms around the 10,000 things that they have to do. Now, I’m sure it was hyperbolic. However, I very quickly pointed out if they saw the relationship between the inability to hold people accountable and, the 10,000 things they have to do.
Bill Berthel: Oh, interesting. Probably a correlation between accountability and the number of things we have to do and the capacity we have to do them in.
Ralph Simone: Yeah. So which things do I focus on? What do I follow up on? What is okay to let go of? And I think organizations are constantly, they have so many things, and this is where focus comes in. And I play around with this. I love to play around with variations of. I think this is a variation of either an Emerson or a Thoreau quote. But focus, focus, focus. Make the essential elements of your life and your leadership number a vital few. We think we have this infinite capacity that we can do more. The more automated things become, the more things we think we can do. And I think it’s causing us to lose that discipline of really focusing on those essential items.
Bill Berthel: Yeah, I think you’re right. I think we’re well intended. Right. We have a lot of interest. We want to get a lot of things done. We see a lot of opportunities. But even with that good intention, we’re overwhelming the capacity of our resources. And so focus is a way to get it back to what you call it, the vital few.
Ralph Simone: The vital few. I like to get Paredo in the mix.
Bill Berthel: Right.
Ralph Simone: Wilfredo Paredo, the Italian economist who studied the unequal distribution of wealth, 20% of our tasks yield 80% of our results, 20% of our customers. And we seem to intellectually know that. I hear people talking about it all the time, and yet we’re trying to do everything. And I remember some of my Covey training. He said, if we see everything as important, we try to do everything. And what do we get? We get overwhelmed.
B

Driving Leadership – A Conversation with James Rolling

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