In this episode Martin talks with Lesley Diaz, founder and principal consultant at Collaborance, about navigating people and power complexities through collaborative governance and polarity intelligence. Lesley shares her systems thinking journey, from early work in the Australian mining industry to teaching in the USA. Lesley explains how she helps organizations find a balance. This balance could be between hierarchical approaches and flatter models. Drawing from Lesley’s experience and influences, Lesley describes the integration of left- and right-brain thinking, and also how people have different fears – some fear the material world e.g. “doing the doing”, but these people maybe have less fear in the emotional world. Lesley also explores the role of emotional courage and stakeholder dialogue in building trust and shifting entrenched behaviours. Her rich, compassionate approach brings a human-centered perspective to systems transformation.