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[E15a] Fundamentals Week: Bonus Episode – Daniel Redman
Ending week one of Fundamentals Week, special guest
Daniel Redman is on the show to chat about Trust. Bringing his experience in B2B
and B2C sales roles he shares with us where trust fits into the sales process.
Some of the topics we cover:
- Building trust on inbound calls
- How much knowledge the prospect is coming to you with
- How to be better than robots
- Negotiating with terrorists
- Being authentic and vulnerable
- Why your brand doesn’t matter (if you even have one!)
- Be interesting…and interested
- The weather doesn’t matter
Links from Daniel:
LinkedIn : https://www.linkedin.com/in/dredman/
Youtube : http://bit.ly/SubSalesEnable Subscribe
for 10 free cold call giveaway!
Twitter : www.twitter.com/dredman
Website : https://salesenable.us/
Chris Voss Video Referenced: https://youtu.be/llctqNJr2IU
Comedy TeamBuilding : https://witsteambuilding.com/
Book a meeting with Daniel: https://calendly.com/daniel-redman
E15a – Transcript
Jason: All right on this special bonus episode for fundamentals week of the sales experience podcast, I have a very special guest Daniel Redman. He and I connected on LinkedIn and it’s funny because from the moment, I saw his profile and his description of what he does. I literally felt like he might be my brother from another mother in terms of sales and coaching, consulting, marketing all of that. And as always what I’m gonna do is, I’m gonna put all of Daniel’s links and info in the show notes everything that he’s going to give me, so you can discover more about him.
But as you know my goal
isn’t to take up your time with a lot of fluff or interview type stuff and set
up questions and background stories, so just want to get right into it. Daniel
welcome to the Sales Experience Podcast.
Daniel: Thanks Jason and you know just to put it out there, I did get
the results back from the 23 & Me test.
Jason: Yes?
Daniel: Yeah it turns out we’re brothers.
Jason: Oh look at that, going way back way back somewhere.
Daniel: Several generations that goes back to the homeland, it’s like
Hollywood platform for sure.
Jason: It’s like we’re all connected, it’s probably eventually what
23 & Me is just gonna say is, it’s all the same it’s all it’s all people. So,
now when we chatted and we were gonna talk about sales, one of the hardest
things that I had to decide like when I had approached you and you would
approach me about being on the show was what the hell do we actually narrow
down our conversation to. Now since its fundamentals week and you’re all about
marketing that drives inbound leads, as well as helping companies with their
outbound campaigns and you know both where that all synergizes. What I want to
talk about was building trust.
So, let’s take this
magical inbound warm call which is the pinnacle of what you’d want if you were
a sales rep, right. The company is paid for marketing, leads or calls invested
in making the phone ring, the rep answers like let’s start in this conversation.
What have you found well that works in building trust over the phone, that’s
literally an extension of that marketing?
Daniel: Yeah you know it’s a really it’s gonna sound really simple
and just kind of cut right to the chase which I know you like. But you know the
thing with an inbound call is you really, when you pick up that phone you have
to understand that there’s a probably several hours perhaps a week, maybe six months’
worth of invested time that, that person has put in to finding your company. Especially
if we’re talking about like a high ticket something that’s a major investment
you know you have to assume that this person on the phone actually has the
upper hand when they’re calling you and they’re catching you off guard.
So you can’t treat this
like you would a cold call and your outbound and you’re catching somebody on
their heels, this person knows a lot about you before they’re picking up the
phone. And I think that coming to that realization and that understanding
changes the way you should approach an inbound phone call.
Jason: And it’s interesting when you say that, because I think about
even times where there’s been marketing and you know I’ve been at an
organization where they’re paying for some kind of lead, where there’s no
branding associated right. So, there’s two different sides, there’s hey I’m you
know Toyota and I’m doing marketing and I want you to call in or walk into my
dealership and then you know who I am. And then there is you know, I’m doing
ads or you know doing something let’s say on a Facebook Ad, where I’m driving
traffic. You may not know what the brand is but you know you have an issue that
you want solved.
It’s interesting to
then think that you know even if they don’t know who you are as a brand, they
still have some idea of what’s going on or at least what they need. And they’re
coming at you what’s theoretically somewhat armed especially in this day and
age of so much information available, and you know what’s at everyone’s
fingertips.
Daniel: Yeah that’s really it right likes that person if they’re
motivated to pick up the phone even fill out a submit form online, there’s a
pain there you know. So, the game is you know how do I break this you know
break down the conversation and you know find some common ground early with
this person on an inbound call, so that I can get quickly to that challenge.
Jason: So, how do you like one of the fundamental things that I
stand against and like all of my messages to go against and everything that I
focus on, is to not sound like or be like that salesy, slick, slimy salesperson,
right. The one that everyone thinks about when they hear sales or especially
when they hear like used car salesperson, like everyone has that picture in
their mind that instantly pops up. So, how do you like what have you found that
works well independent of what’s being sold, but just the you know the
fundamentals of it for building that trust out of the gate with somebody brand
new without breaking the barrier or trying too hard to be that that slick
salesperson?
Daniel: Yeah, well I don’t know if you know this about me Jason, but
I’m extremely charming. So, you know for me it’s.
Jason: Just natural, it just happens yeah you don’t even know you
help somebody else. It’s like LeBron James trying to show someone else how to
doesn’t know he just does it right it’s just amazing right, that’s you know.
Daniel: So really you know the long the short of it is, man I really
hate I kind of have a love/hate relationship with sales scripts right. Because a
sale is great for the new on board that needs to learn the content, learn the
material is coming from a place of ground zero and building up and gives you
that right cadence and flow of communication. But as soon as I feel as though
my sales hires understand conceptually the material, I tell them to rip up you
know large portions of sales scripts.
Because if you’re
talking in natural language and speaking from a place of authenticity and
people understand that and hear that and know that you’re not a robot or a
dialer which are becoming increasingly harder to decipher. I’ve seen some like
new technology with dialers, like it’s getting pretty intense with AI learning
cooked in. But it’s authenticity, like if I have flawless language and I don’t
skip a beat and it sounds perfect, then I start to really like lean towards the
slimy salesperson right.
Like you want to be
articulate and understandable and relatable, and I think that natural
communication gets you part of the way there. Second thing is and if you’re, I
think everyone reads Voss at some point though the read or follow and watch
videos with believe his first name is Chris Voss. He was the former negotiator that
you know he says that when he’s handling international negotiation situations,
the very first thing he does with terrorists and not to say that sales
prospects are terrorists in any way. But he puts himself in their shoes and he
reflects what his knowledge of their experience is like.
So, the example he
gives is a I believe and I might be misquoting this slightly, he says that he
was dealing with a Haitian terrorist and he says to them, listen if I were you,
I would hold this person hostage as well because your people have been you know
brutally treated, enslaved by you know a British founders of the colonies. And
you’ve had a hundred years of you know oppression in your country and your
people haven’t been taken care of very well. Am I right? And he puts himself in
that person’s shoes and any cuts tension. The first sensation of tension from a
sales prospect whether it’s inbound or outbound etc. You can just hang up
the phone. Tension is a killer is a deal killer on all sides.
Jason: So, it’s super fascinating you talk about Chris Voss who I am
not familiar with it all but I’ll definitely look him up and put some links in
the show notes when I find out more about him. But it’s interesting how you
relate that to sales and in our trust conversation right. Just so everyone
knows like this isn’t planned we didn’t have a you know the thing that we’re
gonna walk through and cover all these points and make it sound you know ad-libbed
and it’s really not like this is just happening.
Because in the trust
conversation one of the things that I have found that has worked amazingly well
for myself in sales in you know selling directly to consumers, selling to
managers to bosses, selling up the chain to owners. I work for whatever that
case may be is, I have always found the knack and I don’t shy away from telling
the prospect, telling the other person exactly what I know they’re thinking,
and or what they’re worried about, and bringing that to light.
Because that’s, and
there’s a fine line right you know and I probably put this in a later episode
or write about this but there’s a thing called objecting with yourself. Where
you’re just bringing up issues, because you’re scared they might be issues and
then the prospect latches on to them and you just shoot yourself in the foot. Versus
doing it intentionally like you said and saying, hey Mr. prospect I know that
you received that letter in the mail and I know that you don’t know what this
about, and I’m sure you’re concerned and I’m sure you’ve called other companies,
but I’m sure that you also need help.
Like whatever that
looks, like whatever a sales rep, a bad sales rep would be afraid to say like
you’re talking about Chris Voss, like whatever a bad negotiator would be afraid
to say because you don’t want to lose that leverage. I implore salespeople to
say it to build trust, like I know you’re worried that there’s going to be a
fee involved with this and I understand that and we’ll get to that point later.
Like just go after, go after the truth and be completely transparent.
Daniel: Yeah and I think that vulnerability plays an important role
in that as well. One other thing that I like to train around is occasionally
falling on the sword. And the one of the ways that you can do that is by
mirroring the other person on the call. You know in person you would do this
right like you would pick up some of the sink speaking cadence and mannerisms,
behavior the person that you’re selling to and that’s some like, that’s some
fundamental sales you know knowledge that you learn early on.
But on a call the way
that you can sort of simulate that is by asking someone and saying hold on a
second listen. I just heard you say that you might be too old for this product,
did I hear that correctly and what you’ve done is you’ve added a small layer of
vulnerability. You’ve also put an emotional connection between you and the
prospect. So, you are kind of hitting like tooth to trust angles at once. If
that makes sense?
Jason: Yeah, and I think it’s really the authenticity, the
vulnerability, the transparency you know all of that when you come from that
place as a professional salesperson, not just a salesperson who also has the
goal of helping people in whatever it might be, right. So, there’s one extreme
which is you’re helping someone out of a bad situation or helping them improve
and transform their life right. Like maybe they need to get into a rehab
program or get out of debt or you know whatever might be.
And then there’s the
other side where they just want to buy a product or service, like they want to
buy a car which in their mind is helping them transform. But if you’re doing
all of that to help improve their situation, then it’s all about the
authenticity, the vulnerability and the transparency to have that trust with
them. I mean and this is what’s interesting and I don’t want to totally go into
interview mode, because anyone has me no interviews. But interview shows, but
what’s funny and I’ll put a link for this because I think it’s fantastic is
that you wrote a LinkedIn article or post that’s called the twelve Maxim’s for
sales leaders in marketing.
And there’s one in
particular that I thought was A, hilarious and B, 1,000 maybe a million percent
true. And you list one of the Maxim’s and I’m gonna paraphrase, it says, unless
your name is Amazon Trust has been broken with the consumer. Which in this day
and age is basically sad but true right, unless your name is Amazon then
nobody’s gonna trust you.
Daniel: Yeah, you’re playing from behind you’re just everybody else
if you’re not Amazon. And of course that’s a little bit of a broad umbrella you
know reflecting, not to beat those guys up too bad they can take it. But you
know that’s any major brand which you know the majority vast majority of us
probably don’t work for, but you know how do you call somebody and establish
yourself if you don’t have that big brand behind you. And that’s kind of what
it’s you know hinting at, and you get lumped in with the you know that the
10,000 Robo dialers that are out there.
The companies that are
instantly trying to sell you a website from overseas, the second you register
domain, the IRS scam. You’re a part of that if you’re making an outbound phone
call whether you want to be or not. So, how do you cut through the noise of
that and the only way you can do that is by being human, being authentic, being
trustworthy, being vulnerable, being a person. You know it’s weird to say that
but being a person is should be the most popular sales trend.
Jason: Well and you know what’s interesting about that point about
just being a person is why that’s not just the norm in the culture within
sales organizations under the broad umbrella of sales. I mean you know why
salespeople organizations perpetuate this focus on being a certain thing or
doing a certain thing or you know you could you can be a person and bring some
of your skills as far as talking to people. But also use and memorize these 15 closing
tactics to use and these lines that we know work really well in order to get
people to buy.
Daniel: Yeah man, I could talk for the next hour about that.
Jason: Why do you have you have 15 closes that you tell everyone to
use every time?
Daniel: Yes, and no more no, than yes because my belief is that you
know well a couple things you know really there with closing as far as closing
goes there. It’s more about timing, confidence, the appropriate level of you
know assertiveness less about the individual words in my opinion. I think
people should learn closes, I think they should practice them, I think they
should talk through them but in my opinion timing is so much more important and
confidence. And you know being present rather than just spouting out words and
regurgitating language, that to me it just never gets the gets the job done.
And I think the total
balance and why we’re in a place of sort of these two you know competing forces
of script versus not script, human versus Robo. All these things you’ve got
some major shifts and in sales, in particular that have happened over the last
really seven or eight years that are affecting all of this. You and I are kind
of from the same generation Jason, just knowing how old you are and how gray I
am. But you know if you asked me what is a business development representative
10 years ago. I would describe that person as having a pretty substantial book
of business that they’ve built over the years of a really nice network.
Somebody that can work
a variety of different types of deals and sales strategies and communication
patterns to make business happen. And that’s how in a nutshell how I would
describe but this is development. Today the average experience at the time of
hire for a business development rep is 1.4 years and that number has tanked
over the last six years. And it’s this crazy downward trajectory of experience
at higher for BDR’s. So, you know what do you do with this growing sort of role
within sales that you know you’ve got create systems you know. Because if you
have inexperienced people in a role with a lot of demand and high volume, then
you have to work within systems to do it.
So, it’s a battle of
systems versus authenticity and where do you find the happy medium between
those.
Jason: Well, I think that you know talking about.
Daniel: You got me fired up
Jason: That’s good this is you know like the listeners knows this
bonus episodes, ever a lot of mistakes if I got to make this into a three-part
miniseries of conversation there you know. But so weird term a closing talking
about authenticity, time with scripts all of that. I think in terms of trust
like when I hear you talking about those things, it might sound really weird
but there’s a lot of trust that comes from being in control as a salesperson. And
this may be weird and tell me if you disagree with this, but you know follow
along.
So, you know when I
think about a closing and I hear you talking about it the word that jumped into
my mind was controlled. So, you use closing techniques to control the
conversation and the direction hopefully and this is like what I’ve always told
everyone I’ve talked to everyone I’ve trained you know any sessions I’ve ever
done is that thankfully I use my powers for good and not for evil. And my goal
is to actually help people better their situation, whether it’s something I can
offer to sell to them or it’s a direction and they should go buy something else
from somebody else is, but it’s always control.
So, you think about
some of the classic closes it’s about control and I think there’s a lot that you
can build in trust, in the prospect by being in control. So, like I am the
professional, I’m gonna take you on this journey, you can trust me, we will get
there right. Like when you go into your doctor there’s already an inherit level
of trust because you know what it takes for that person to be a doctor. But
when they tell you what to do and their guiding you through the process, you’re
you know you’re trusting that you know they want to take care of you. And I
think what’s interesting is that you can build trust and prospects in many
different ways.
One of which is just
being in control of the process and having a system that also you know allows
you to be a human.
Daniel: Yeah, that’s it, I like the way you phrase that.
Jason: There we go now we’re done, here we go. So its interesting
thing, I never really you know obviously I think about control in terms of you
know the classic is whoever’s asking questions is in control. And so you want
to make sure that you have control and you’re asking questions and I’ll cover
that in a different episode. But you know also how control helps build the
trust because it’s like, hey you know follow me I know where you need to go
based on what you’ve already told me.
Daniel: Yeah, and really that control it you don’t just find it right
at the end of the sales process right. Like you’re building that control three
calls ago and planning the sets for it and you know that that’s what like a
longer sales process and the high ticket closes needs to be is more of the
multi-layered closes. We already talked about this early on, you exhibited that
this is far and away the most important thing for. You know it’s time for us to
move forward you know, but you’ve already created several different layers of
closing that are leading you to that that last ask for business.
So, that’s the only
thing I would add on to that is, like it doesn’t just happen there right like
it’s a build.
Jason: Right, and what’s interesting is that in the world that
you’re referring to is the multi called multi step longer process. You know
when you’re using the term BDR you’re talking about more of a
business-to-business sale right. My brain and my experience is mostly on the
business to consumer where you know for most good interactions 60, 70 % of the
closes happen in one phone call. So a new abound call comes in you know you
help that person and then you move on. And so what’s interesting is it’s the
same fundamentals right which is what I’ve been talking about this week and
what you’re all about in two different realms.
And sometimes you’ve
got 20 minutes, you got to do it all and you got to go from zero to everything
with all of these steps with the trust. Other times it’s you’ve got three or
four or five interactions maybe they’re spread over weeks or months. You’ve got
to do them all and not just do them all but you got to do them right and
continue it on and be consistent. Which I think is really to your point about
being authentic and being vulnerable and being who you are, because what’s
really difficult and I’ve seen people try to do this is they try to build trust,
they try to be this salesperson. They think the person needs or the person that
the company is trying to get them to be, it’s not authentic for them and they
can’t really fake it for months and months on the long sale.
Right at some point
they’re gonna slip up, the truth is going to come out that they’re actually
human and not a sales machine robot with all the perfect answers right.
Daniel: Man B2C selling sounds super easy.
Jason: So here’s the funny thing let’s just normally side note on
this conversation, it sounds really easy, but it’s not and it is right
sometimes it is. Because it’s super easy when somebody says, I want this thing.
The problem is that depending on what you’re selling or in the business of you
know they may say they want help or they may want this thing, but they you know
people don’t want to change. For an organization to change that’s a different
thing because maybe there’s a goal and there’s a fundamental purpose and
everyone’s fighting in the same direction and you know they know they need this
software, they know they need the solution or this marketing help.
For an individual to
change for that one person you know everyone fears changed, no one likes change,
no one wants to be uncomfortable and get outside their comfort zone. So,
literally any time you’re selling anything that somebody isn’t already buying,
then it requires change which is scary right. If they’re already buying it,
then you’re just order-taking, but no matter what it is, there’s some inherent
danger that our primitive brain is worried about which is leading back into
this tress conversation.
Daniel: Yeah, I mean yeah and I don’t wanna -.
Jason: I know you were, I know you were what’s funny is like,
sometimes I think oh B2C would be super fun and that would be super easy. And
it’s like no that’s not easy like it’s never, sometimes it’s easy it’s a home
run and it’s you know it just happens and other times just like why don’t you
get it. Like I see your issue I see what you need help with I know what the
answer is and you know and then that makes me reflect back to you, you know
being a kid and you know my parents being like just do this thing.
I mean that doesn’t
make sense, why would I do that and they already know the answers they’ve lived
enough life to know what the answer is. They just you know go let me screw it
up until I figure it out I guess.
Daniel: Oh so your parents are or primarily right in the -.
Jason: They were probably, yeah I’d say for the first you know at
least dozen years of my life they were right and then you know then things
shifted and then I was right all the time. But yeah they were probably right
about some things yeah.
Daniel: What would you say and we’re gonna turn this into an
interview style format Jason.
Jason: All right.
Daniel: Turn the tables on you, what would you say from a sales
standpoint you learn from your parents.
Jason: You know I would say the biggest thing and this is a
fundamental tenant for me is just and this is the kind of the buying silo which
is also my selling style. It’s just be honest and let the buyer buy, don’t be
pushy trying to sell right. Like there’s, in sales everyone knows that you’re
out to get a benefit right. You’re in sales as a business because you’re gonna
get something out of it right obviously commission or income or keep your job
whatever it might be. But you know like watching my parents, especially my mom goes
through periods where she you know would buy a new car and go to a dealership
and just sit there and I would be a kid you know eight, Nine, ten years old
sitting in the dealership for hours and hours and watching the battle.
You know she just you
know she just wanted to be real like give me the bottom line and let’s go from
there and they were using tactics and they were doing all kinds of crazy stuff
and it drove her crazy. And I think it’s just about being authentic, it’s you
know and this is the one thing I learned from them and I’m the same way as well.
It’s like when I find somebody I trust that I bought from, I will continue to
buy from that person whether instead of stores, over the phone, it’s at a
company. Like I like somebody who I trust who I know will just give me straight
answers, and if that’s the case then what’s interesting is that price doesn’t
matter as much.
Like I have dealt with
people where I know I have paid more for items but I trusted them and I liked
them and I knew that they were gonna steer me the right direction, and I was
fine paying more for it right. And so I think that’s key for me.
Daniel: Yeah and I think you’re leaning, that’s something that I
think is really important in understanding too is that you’re, you should end
us a transaction whatever it was and whatever the result is whether it’s a sink
or swim or a buyer died. That person should walk away saying regardless of the
outcome, I would work with them again. I don’t feel betrayed, I don’t feel like
my needs haven’t been met or that I’ve been, the wools been pulled over my eyes.
You know regardless of the outcome both parties should walk away and say that
this was something that we would try again.
Jason: Yeah for sure, I mean it’s and then it shifts to
relationships and we’re talking you know like we talked about. I’m 43 years old
so you know I grew up in a time you know there was no internet, there was no
knowledge in the hands of most consumers right. So, you go into a car
dealership, you don’t know what the price that you should be paying or what the
options are how much they paid for the car or what you could get that car for
in Minnesota like you don’t know you could easily do that definitely not at the
time. And so the leverage of power was in the salespersons hand because they were the
keeper of the knowledge right.
It’s the classic real
estate model where real estate agents have had the power because they had all
the knowledge of the market and houses and prices and access to everything. And
then with the internet that shifted, so consumers had the same amount of
knowledge and the playing field was much more level. And so you know that now
especially with information available, it’s all about relationships and you
know somebody who you’re gonna want to do it again and again. And you know one
of the big things that I focus on with sales reps and with companies is using
what you’re doing, you’re selling, you’re moving is forward in one transaction
but really the end game is all about the referral and the relationships.
Daniel: Yeah, I talk about this quite a bit, there is such a
convergence these days of entertainment and sales. And it’s always sort of like
a performance element of sales has always been there, but you know increasingly
so as we’re in a world where there’s instant gratification and constant gaining
in all facets of life. If you’re not interesting as a salesperson in some way
whether it’s from a product standpoint or an intelligence standpoint or you
just know a couple really good jokes, then you’re gonna be playing from behind
as a salesperson.
And I always joke that
comedians now finally have some side hustle opportunity in becoming salespeople,
so.
Jason: But I would counter that though and just to kind of debate a
different perspective, I think it also really depends on what you’re selling. If
you’re helping let’s say you know because a lot of my background has been debt
relief type stuff, so people who are buried in credit card debt, buried in
student loans or mortgages or you know things they can’t pay for some levity is
nice, some jokes are nice really what they’re craving more is empathy and
solution. And what I found works well, because it’s a transaction they want to
trust it professional more than they want a friend is, you’ve got to be careful
about breaking into the friend zone.
And you know you don’t
want to go full-on mode, but one way to look at it is like a transaction just
like the DMV. Sometimes the sales transaction even if it’s a big ticket is all
about just getting it done in the trust side. And when you go to DMV you know
it’s not gonna be very fun but you know they’re gonna take care of you and
they’re gonna solve your problem. And you’ll be you know hopefully after a few
hours, you’ll be taken care.
Daniel: Yeah.
Jason: And I think it would different people like you said with
mirroring, I think with some of the prospects you talk to, some jokes helps and
things help all of them are all about business some of them you know you just
want the bottom line they just want to know, you know that speaks to them more
than the joking you know sales person that wants to talk about sports all the
time. And then for other people if you get to the bottom line too fast, you’re
gonna totally blow it and they won’t trust you because they won’t like you in
that way.
Daniel: So, let me ask you then, how do you value report building? Is
rapport building something that you would train around?
Jason: Yes, and I and I covered that in this week as well but you
know obviously that’s really specific for every industry. So, there’s some
high-level parts that I always focus on, and it’s really the right amount of
rapport. But like I said it’s that friend zone boundary you have to watch out
for. Because people don’t generally like to do business with friends, they like
to do people business with people that they like and trust and feel good about
and feel like they will take care of their needs, but not necessarily friends,
right.
Like most people don’t
turn to their friends and say here’s all my money, can you be my financial
planner & investment for me, you know unless they know that trust and true
professional it could be really tough. So, I think the right amount of rapport
and I think it’s really you know back to your mirroring point it comes down to
what does that person seem to be interested in and how much rapport makes sense,
and then also how much time you have. What I see a lot of sales reps fail at is
they go into rapport mode at the gate because they feel like that’s super important.
And then they blow 5,
10, 15 minutes on rapport next thing you know they’re talking about recipes and
restaurants and sports and weather and then the prospect has to go. And they
basically wasted 15 minutes of chitchat on rapport building, because they were
so nervous instead of just get into the facts. Like a little bit of rapport and
I feel like rapport is something you do as you go. I don’t need to have a
conversation with you what it starts out where we talk about sports and weather
and where you live and all of these things.
For there to be enough
report for me to help you as a professional, and as we go let’s have more of a
relationship and I’ll sprinkle in rapport. Because I actually do care about you
as a person.
Daniel: Yeah, and it’s actually interesting to kind of focus on and
finding that balance. And I think that every rep is slightly different in there
from a rapport building standpoint. I saw report last year that was really
intriguing and as you might imagine someone’s putting data around rapport.
Jason: Of course.
Daniel: And one of the top drivers or influencers of sales from a
rapport standpoint was identifying that you were from the same, you grew up in
the same town.
Jason: Got it.
Daniel: If you identify that you were from the same town that
apparently had the largest influential bump on whether or not that person would
do business with you.
Jason: Interesting.
Daniel: Super interesting report.
Jason: It makes total sense, I mean you know people want to work
with people they know and trust and like. And so obviously if there’s a common
thing that breaks the barrier. I have found in many sales organizations I’ve
been a part of that did nationwide marketing either like part of the US or all
of the US is the closing rate of people from the same state as the office or
reps or call center was always higher. Because you’re in the same state, it’s
like okay well where are you at you’re in Washington, oh we’re in Washington
too or California or Nevada whatever that is. And they’re like okay cool this
feels a little more real.
Daniel: Yeah, if you’re calling on people in Boston in the middle of
winter and you’re in San Diego.
Jason: Yeah.
Daniel: Really are close race.
Jason: You know you definitely don’t know about the weather, you’re
gonna lose that that debate all the time. And so I wanted to go back before I
forget you had asked me a question about what I learned from my parents. I got
to throw this out and tell this story because I think it’s hilarious and I talk
about soul time. The other thing I learned from my parents growing up as a kid
is, if you’re gonna sell something to people right, especially where there’s
more than one person involved, husband-wife, close relationship, family you
know an adult and then you know their parents are involved.
So, it’s a guy and you know
that his parents are gonna be involved in whatever this is right. So on the
consumer side or even if it’s business and you know that there’s multiple
people, multiple stakeholders who are gonna have to make decisions is, make
sure they’re all on board with it. Because if you sell to one and you know the
other one was left in the dark it will come back to haunt you and it will come
back to get you. You will get an angry call or something angry from the other
party who felt left out.
And here’s the funny
story that this is this is partly why I learned this also in years and sales is,
I remember being a kid this is back in the day no caller ID you know people
called and you just answered. It was back in the day when somebody called you
or knocked on the door, you were excited because that was probably somebody who
wanted to talk to right. And so I remember my dad answered the phone and three
minutes later he was grabbing his wallet and pulling out his credit card, right.
And this was just has
turned out to be a cold call and my mom rips the phone out of his hand and it’s
like don’t ever call here again, we don’t want to buy it and then like hung up
the phone and then took away my dad’s phone answering privileges. Because he was
just gonna buy, he’s trusting, he was gonna just happen and my mom’s like wait
we don’t need that. And you know if you’re doing a sale, an opportunity you
call anybody or talk anybody, just make sure you cover all of it or it’ll come
back and haunt you.
Daniel: That’s good lesson.
Jason: yeah, I thought I was yeah, I just remember that so vividly
it was it was hilarious.
Daniel: Man you got some wise parents.
Jason: Yeah, for sure I think most people do, let me get down for
sure.
Daniel: Of course as do I.
Jason: So, what do you think, the last question I had or the thought
I was having is, you know obviously you do in marketing right. So, you’re a
marketing guy you’re driving you’re focused on marketing you’re driving inbound
calls or you’re doing campaigns which are making those outbound calls all right.
Somebody’s seeing the marketing they’re seeing the letter whether they know
your brand or not, website they fill out the form you know people are still
skeptical. But, and they know that the salesperson is gonna want something and
the company is going to benefit from it and they still need the help and want
the help and call in or go in or do whatever respond.
And I mean it’s just
fundamentally interesting how people have this level of where they don’t trust
anybody kind of back to your point about Amazon where like literally there is
no trust. But people still have need and they still make those calls or fill
out those forms.
Daniel: Yeah and there’s a trigger there right, and that’s one of the
most challenging things to uncover sometimes is, when and why you’re actually
being successful. You know it takes a lot of you know – to really uncover the
individual elements. I used to refer to it as single variable isolation.
Jason: Well.
Daniel: Tech, yeah I know I just blew your mind with that, it anyone
like lists even say it’s like a text at like a paid search text ad. Any one of
those words could pose as a trigger and the order of the words can be an
entirely different trigger as well. And you’re constantly trying to answer the
question what was that trigger, what was the thing that that person saw and
interpreted from my advertising or my ad unit, my webinar, my blog post. What
did they interpret from that, that connected with either their expectations or
their sense of urgency, their challenges what was that link?
And it’s not an easy
thing to necessarily come upon that right away. I think it’s sometimes harder
to find out why things are working than why things are failing.
Jason: Interesting, well on that note I think that’s a great place
to stop Daniel. I appreciate your time, this has been super fun not this
standard show, turning a tables on me. I appreciate that, that’s fun. Like I
said I’m gonna include all of your information that notes, so people can find
you. And you know I could see us doing this again and cover and lots more
topics as you know I’m sure we could have kept doing on this one here.
Daniel: Let’s do it again my brother and I’ll bring some jokes next
time and you tell me not to use them because -.
Jason: I will let you do the jokes, it will be great building
rapport and Trust. And it will make me and the listeners trust you even more
with more great jokes.
Daniel: Love it.
Jason: Alright cool, I appreciate that and everyone listening make
sure you subscribe, rate, leave a comment. All that’s appreciated this is
everywhere iTunes, Stitcher, Spotify, Google Play, on our website Sound Cloud.
But until next time always remember that everything in life is sales and people
remember the experience you gave them.
View all episodes
By Jason Cutter
4.9
3535 ratings
Ending week one of Fundamentals Week, special guest
Daniel Redman is on the show to chat about Trust. Bringing his experience in B2B
and B2C sales roles he shares with us where trust fits into the sales process.
Some of the topics we cover:
- Building trust on inbound calls
- How much knowledge the prospect is coming to you with
- How to be better than robots
- Negotiating with terrorists
- Being authentic and vulnerable
- Why your brand doesn’t matter (if you even have one!)
- Be interesting…and interested
- The weather doesn’t matter
Links from Daniel:
LinkedIn : https://www.linkedin.com/in/dredman/
Youtube : http://bit.ly/SubSalesEnable Subscribe
for 10 free cold call giveaway!
Twitter : www.twitter.com/dredman
Website : https://salesenable.us/
Chris Voss Video Referenced: https://youtu.be/llctqNJr2IU
Comedy TeamBuilding : https://witsteambuilding.com/
Book a meeting with Daniel: https://calendly.com/daniel-redman
E15a – Transcript
Jason: All right on this special bonus episode for fundamentals week of the sales experience podcast, I have a very special guest Daniel Redman. He and I connected on LinkedIn and it’s funny because from the moment, I saw his profile and his description of what he does. I literally felt like he might be my brother from another mother in terms of sales and coaching, consulting, marketing all of that. And as always what I’m gonna do is, I’m gonna put all of Daniel’s links and info in the show notes everything that he’s going to give me, so you can discover more about him.
But as you know my goal
isn’t to take up your time with a lot of fluff or interview type stuff and set
up questions and background stories, so just want to get right into it. Daniel
welcome to the Sales Experience Podcast.
Daniel: Thanks Jason and you know just to put it out there, I did get
the results back from the 23 & Me test.
Jason: Yes?
Daniel: Yeah it turns out we’re brothers.
Jason: Oh look at that, going way back way back somewhere.
Daniel: Several generations that goes back to the homeland, it’s like
Hollywood platform for sure.
Jason: It’s like we’re all connected, it’s probably eventually what
23 & Me is just gonna say is, it’s all the same it’s all it’s all people. So,
now when we chatted and we were gonna talk about sales, one of the hardest
things that I had to decide like when I had approached you and you would
approach me about being on the show was what the hell do we actually narrow
down our conversation to. Now since its fundamentals week and you’re all about
marketing that drives inbound leads, as well as helping companies with their
outbound campaigns and you know both where that all synergizes. What I want to
talk about was building trust.
So, let’s take this
magical inbound warm call which is the pinnacle of what you’d want if you were
a sales rep, right. The company is paid for marketing, leads or calls invested
in making the phone ring, the rep answers like let’s start in this conversation.
What have you found well that works in building trust over the phone, that’s
literally an extension of that marketing?
Daniel: Yeah you know it’s a really it’s gonna sound really simple
and just kind of cut right to the chase which I know you like. But you know the
thing with an inbound call is you really, when you pick up that phone you have
to understand that there’s a probably several hours perhaps a week, maybe six months’
worth of invested time that, that person has put in to finding your company. Especially
if we’re talking about like a high ticket something that’s a major investment
you know you have to assume that this person on the phone actually has the
upper hand when they’re calling you and they’re catching you off guard.
So you can’t treat this
like you would a cold call and your outbound and you’re catching somebody on
their heels, this person knows a lot about you before they’re picking up the
phone. And I think that coming to that realization and that understanding
changes the way you should approach an inbound phone call.
Jason: And it’s interesting when you say that, because I think about
even times where there’s been marketing and you know I’ve been at an
organization where they’re paying for some kind of lead, where there’s no
branding associated right. So, there’s two different sides, there’s hey I’m you
know Toyota and I’m doing marketing and I want you to call in or walk into my
dealership and then you know who I am. And then there is you know, I’m doing
ads or you know doing something let’s say on a Facebook Ad, where I’m driving
traffic. You may not know what the brand is but you know you have an issue that
you want solved.
It’s interesting to
then think that you know even if they don’t know who you are as a brand, they
still have some idea of what’s going on or at least what they need. And they’re
coming at you what’s theoretically somewhat armed especially in this day and
age of so much information available, and you know what’s at everyone’s
fingertips.
Daniel: Yeah that’s really it right likes that person if they’re
motivated to pick up the phone even fill out a submit form online, there’s a
pain there you know. So, the game is you know how do I break this you know
break down the conversation and you know find some common ground early with
this person on an inbound call, so that I can get quickly to that challenge.
Jason: So, how do you like one of the fundamental things that I
stand against and like all of my messages to go against and everything that I
focus on, is to not sound like or be like that salesy, slick, slimy salesperson,
right. The one that everyone thinks about when they hear sales or especially
when they hear like used car salesperson, like everyone has that picture in
their mind that instantly pops up. So, how do you like what have you found that
works well independent of what’s being sold, but just the you know the
fundamentals of it for building that trust out of the gate with somebody brand
new without breaking the barrier or trying too hard to be that that slick
salesperson?
Daniel: Yeah, well I don’t know if you know this about me Jason, but
I’m extremely charming. So, you know for me it’s.
Jason: Just natural, it just happens yeah you don’t even know you
help somebody else. It’s like LeBron James trying to show someone else how to
doesn’t know he just does it right it’s just amazing right, that’s you know.
Daniel: So really you know the long the short of it is, man I really
hate I kind of have a love/hate relationship with sales scripts right. Because a
sale is great for the new on board that needs to learn the content, learn the
material is coming from a place of ground zero and building up and gives you
that right cadence and flow of communication. But as soon as I feel as though
my sales hires understand conceptually the material, I tell them to rip up you
know large portions of sales scripts.
Because if you’re
talking in natural language and speaking from a place of authenticity and
people understand that and hear that and know that you’re not a robot or a
dialer which are becoming increasingly harder to decipher. I’ve seen some like
new technology with dialers, like it’s getting pretty intense with AI learning
cooked in. But it’s authenticity, like if I have flawless language and I don’t
skip a beat and it sounds perfect, then I start to really like lean towards the
slimy salesperson right.
Like you want to be
articulate and understandable and relatable, and I think that natural
communication gets you part of the way there. Second thing is and if you’re, I
think everyone reads Voss at some point though the read or follow and watch
videos with believe his first name is Chris Voss. He was the former negotiator that
you know he says that when he’s handling international negotiation situations,
the very first thing he does with terrorists and not to say that sales
prospects are terrorists in any way. But he puts himself in their shoes and he
reflects what his knowledge of their experience is like.
So, the example he
gives is a I believe and I might be misquoting this slightly, he says that he
was dealing with a Haitian terrorist and he says to them, listen if I were you,
I would hold this person hostage as well because your people have been you know
brutally treated, enslaved by you know a British founders of the colonies. And
you’ve had a hundred years of you know oppression in your country and your
people haven’t been taken care of very well. Am I right? And he puts himself in
that person’s shoes and any cuts tension. The first sensation of tension from a
sales prospect whether it’s inbound or outbound etc. You can just hang up
the phone. Tension is a killer is a deal killer on all sides.
Jason: So, it’s super fascinating you talk about Chris Voss who I am
not familiar with it all but I’ll definitely look him up and put some links in
the show notes when I find out more about him. But it’s interesting how you
relate that to sales and in our trust conversation right. Just so everyone
knows like this isn’t planned we didn’t have a you know the thing that we’re
gonna walk through and cover all these points and make it sound you know ad-libbed
and it’s really not like this is just happening.
Because in the trust
conversation one of the things that I have found that has worked amazingly well
for myself in sales in you know selling directly to consumers, selling to
managers to bosses, selling up the chain to owners. I work for whatever that
case may be is, I have always found the knack and I don’t shy away from telling
the prospect, telling the other person exactly what I know they’re thinking,
and or what they’re worried about, and bringing that to light.
Because that’s, and
there’s a fine line right you know and I probably put this in a later episode
or write about this but there’s a thing called objecting with yourself. Where
you’re just bringing up issues, because you’re scared they might be issues and
then the prospect latches on to them and you just shoot yourself in the foot. Versus
doing it intentionally like you said and saying, hey Mr. prospect I know that
you received that letter in the mail and I know that you don’t know what this
about, and I’m sure you’re concerned and I’m sure you’ve called other companies,
but I’m sure that you also need help.
Like whatever that
looks, like whatever a sales rep, a bad sales rep would be afraid to say like
you’re talking about Chris Voss, like whatever a bad negotiator would be afraid
to say because you don’t want to lose that leverage. I implore salespeople to
say it to build trust, like I know you’re worried that there’s going to be a
fee involved with this and I understand that and we’ll get to that point later.
Like just go after, go after the truth and be completely transparent.
Daniel: Yeah and I think that vulnerability plays an important role
in that as well. One other thing that I like to train around is occasionally
falling on the sword. And the one of the ways that you can do that is by
mirroring the other person on the call. You know in person you would do this
right like you would pick up some of the sink speaking cadence and mannerisms,
behavior the person that you’re selling to and that’s some like, that’s some
fundamental sales you know knowledge that you learn early on.
But on a call the way
that you can sort of simulate that is by asking someone and saying hold on a
second listen. I just heard you say that you might be too old for this product,
did I hear that correctly and what you’ve done is you’ve added a small layer of
vulnerability. You’ve also put an emotional connection between you and the
prospect. So, you are kind of hitting like tooth to trust angles at once. If
that makes sense?
Jason: Yeah, and I think it’s really the authenticity, the
vulnerability, the transparency you know all of that when you come from that
place as a professional salesperson, not just a salesperson who also has the
goal of helping people in whatever it might be, right. So, there’s one extreme
which is you’re helping someone out of a bad situation or helping them improve
and transform their life right. Like maybe they need to get into a rehab
program or get out of debt or you know whatever might be.
And then there’s the
other side where they just want to buy a product or service, like they want to
buy a car which in their mind is helping them transform. But if you’re doing
all of that to help improve their situation, then it’s all about the
authenticity, the vulnerability and the transparency to have that trust with
them. I mean and this is what’s interesting and I don’t want to totally go into
interview mode, because anyone has me no interviews. But interview shows, but
what’s funny and I’ll put a link for this because I think it’s fantastic is
that you wrote a LinkedIn article or post that’s called the twelve Maxim’s for
sales leaders in marketing.
And there’s one in
particular that I thought was A, hilarious and B, 1,000 maybe a million percent
true. And you list one of the Maxim’s and I’m gonna paraphrase, it says, unless
your name is Amazon Trust has been broken with the consumer. Which in this day
and age is basically sad but true right, unless your name is Amazon then
nobody’s gonna trust you.
Daniel: Yeah, you’re playing from behind you’re just everybody else
if you’re not Amazon. And of course that’s a little bit of a broad umbrella you
know reflecting, not to beat those guys up too bad they can take it. But you
know that’s any major brand which you know the majority vast majority of us
probably don’t work for, but you know how do you call somebody and establish
yourself if you don’t have that big brand behind you. And that’s kind of what
it’s you know hinting at, and you get lumped in with the you know that the
10,000 Robo dialers that are out there.
The companies that are
instantly trying to sell you a website from overseas, the second you register
domain, the IRS scam. You’re a part of that if you’re making an outbound phone
call whether you want to be or not. So, how do you cut through the noise of
that and the only way you can do that is by being human, being authentic, being
trustworthy, being vulnerable, being a person. You know it’s weird to say that
but being a person is should be the most popular sales trend.
Jason: Well and you know what’s interesting about that point about
just being a person is why that’s not just the norm in the culture within
sales organizations under the broad umbrella of sales. I mean you know why
salespeople organizations perpetuate this focus on being a certain thing or
doing a certain thing or you know you could you can be a person and bring some
of your skills as far as talking to people. But also use and memorize these 15 closing
tactics to use and these lines that we know work really well in order to get
people to buy.
Daniel: Yeah man, I could talk for the next hour about that.
Jason: Why do you have you have 15 closes that you tell everyone to
use every time?
Daniel: Yes, and no more no, than yes because my belief is that you
know well a couple things you know really there with closing as far as closing
goes there. It’s more about timing, confidence, the appropriate level of you
know assertiveness less about the individual words in my opinion. I think
people should learn closes, I think they should practice them, I think they
should talk through them but in my opinion timing is so much more important and
confidence. And you know being present rather than just spouting out words and
regurgitating language, that to me it just never gets the gets the job done.
And I think the total
balance and why we’re in a place of sort of these two you know competing forces
of script versus not script, human versus Robo. All these things you’ve got
some major shifts and in sales, in particular that have happened over the last
really seven or eight years that are affecting all of this. You and I are kind
of from the same generation Jason, just knowing how old you are and how gray I
am. But you know if you asked me what is a business development representative
10 years ago. I would describe that person as having a pretty substantial book
of business that they’ve built over the years of a really nice network.
Somebody that can work
a variety of different types of deals and sales strategies and communication
patterns to make business happen. And that’s how in a nutshell how I would
describe but this is development. Today the average experience at the time of
hire for a business development rep is 1.4 years and that number has tanked
over the last six years. And it’s this crazy downward trajectory of experience
at higher for BDR’s. So, you know what do you do with this growing sort of role
within sales that you know you’ve got create systems you know. Because if you
have inexperienced people in a role with a lot of demand and high volume, then
you have to work within systems to do it.
So, it’s a battle of
systems versus authenticity and where do you find the happy medium between
those.
Jason: Well, I think that you know talking about.
Daniel: You got me fired up
Jason: That’s good this is you know like the listeners knows this
bonus episodes, ever a lot of mistakes if I got to make this into a three-part
miniseries of conversation there you know. But so weird term a closing talking
about authenticity, time with scripts all of that. I think in terms of trust
like when I hear you talking about those things, it might sound really weird
but there’s a lot of trust that comes from being in control as a salesperson. And
this may be weird and tell me if you disagree with this, but you know follow
along.
So, you know when I
think about a closing and I hear you talking about it the word that jumped into
my mind was controlled. So, you use closing techniques to control the
conversation and the direction hopefully and this is like what I’ve always told
everyone I’ve talked to everyone I’ve trained you know any sessions I’ve ever
done is that thankfully I use my powers for good and not for evil. And my goal
is to actually help people better their situation, whether it’s something I can
offer to sell to them or it’s a direction and they should go buy something else
from somebody else is, but it’s always control.
So, you think about
some of the classic closes it’s about control and I think there’s a lot that you
can build in trust, in the prospect by being in control. So, like I am the
professional, I’m gonna take you on this journey, you can trust me, we will get
there right. Like when you go into your doctor there’s already an inherit level
of trust because you know what it takes for that person to be a doctor. But
when they tell you what to do and their guiding you through the process, you’re
you know you’re trusting that you know they want to take care of you. And I
think what’s interesting is that you can build trust and prospects in many
different ways.
One of which is just
being in control of the process and having a system that also you know allows
you to be a human.
Daniel: Yeah, that’s it, I like the way you phrase that.
Jason: There we go now we’re done, here we go. So its interesting
thing, I never really you know obviously I think about control in terms of you
know the classic is whoever’s asking questions is in control. And so you want
to make sure that you have control and you’re asking questions and I’ll cover
that in a different episode. But you know also how control helps build the
trust because it’s like, hey you know follow me I know where you need to go
based on what you’ve already told me.
Daniel: Yeah, and really that control it you don’t just find it right
at the end of the sales process right. Like you’re building that control three
calls ago and planning the sets for it and you know that that’s what like a
longer sales process and the high ticket closes needs to be is more of the
multi-layered closes. We already talked about this early on, you exhibited that
this is far and away the most important thing for. You know it’s time for us to
move forward you know, but you’ve already created several different layers of
closing that are leading you to that that last ask for business.
So, that’s the only
thing I would add on to that is, like it doesn’t just happen there right like
it’s a build.
Jason: Right, and what’s interesting is that in the world that
you’re referring to is the multi called multi step longer process. You know
when you’re using the term BDR you’re talking about more of a
business-to-business sale right. My brain and my experience is mostly on the
business to consumer where you know for most good interactions 60, 70 % of the
closes happen in one phone call. So a new abound call comes in you know you
help that person and then you move on. And so what’s interesting is it’s the
same fundamentals right which is what I’ve been talking about this week and
what you’re all about in two different realms.
And sometimes you’ve
got 20 minutes, you got to do it all and you got to go from zero to everything
with all of these steps with the trust. Other times it’s you’ve got three or
four or five interactions maybe they’re spread over weeks or months. You’ve got
to do them all and not just do them all but you got to do them right and
continue it on and be consistent. Which I think is really to your point about
being authentic and being vulnerable and being who you are, because what’s
really difficult and I’ve seen people try to do this is they try to build trust,
they try to be this salesperson. They think the person needs or the person that
the company is trying to get them to be, it’s not authentic for them and they
can’t really fake it for months and months on the long sale.
Right at some point
they’re gonna slip up, the truth is going to come out that they’re actually
human and not a sales machine robot with all the perfect answers right.
Daniel: Man B2C selling sounds super easy.
Jason: So here’s the funny thing let’s just normally side note on
this conversation, it sounds really easy, but it’s not and it is right
sometimes it is. Because it’s super easy when somebody says, I want this thing.
The problem is that depending on what you’re selling or in the business of you
know they may say they want help or they may want this thing, but they you know
people don’t want to change. For an organization to change that’s a different
thing because maybe there’s a goal and there’s a fundamental purpose and
everyone’s fighting in the same direction and you know they know they need this
software, they know they need the solution or this marketing help.
For an individual to
change for that one person you know everyone fears changed, no one likes change,
no one wants to be uncomfortable and get outside their comfort zone. So,
literally any time you’re selling anything that somebody isn’t already buying,
then it requires change which is scary right. If they’re already buying it,
then you’re just order-taking, but no matter what it is, there’s some inherent
danger that our primitive brain is worried about which is leading back into
this tress conversation.
Daniel: Yeah, I mean yeah and I don’t wanna -.
Jason: I know you were, I know you were what’s funny is like,
sometimes I think oh B2C would be super fun and that would be super easy. And
it’s like no that’s not easy like it’s never, sometimes it’s easy it’s a home
run and it’s you know it just happens and other times just like why don’t you
get it. Like I see your issue I see what you need help with I know what the
answer is and you know and then that makes me reflect back to you, you know
being a kid and you know my parents being like just do this thing.
I mean that doesn’t
make sense, why would I do that and they already know the answers they’ve lived
enough life to know what the answer is. They just you know go let me screw it
up until I figure it out I guess.
Daniel: Oh so your parents are or primarily right in the -.
Jason: They were probably, yeah I’d say for the first you know at
least dozen years of my life they were right and then you know then things
shifted and then I was right all the time. But yeah they were probably right
about some things yeah.
Daniel: What would you say and we’re gonna turn this into an
interview style format Jason.
Jason: All right.
Daniel: Turn the tables on you, what would you say from a sales
standpoint you learn from your parents.
Jason: You know I would say the biggest thing and this is a
fundamental tenant for me is just and this is the kind of the buying silo which
is also my selling style. It’s just be honest and let the buyer buy, don’t be
pushy trying to sell right. Like there’s, in sales everyone knows that you’re
out to get a benefit right. You’re in sales as a business because you’re gonna
get something out of it right obviously commission or income or keep your job
whatever it might be. But you know like watching my parents, especially my mom goes
through periods where she you know would buy a new car and go to a dealership
and just sit there and I would be a kid you know eight, Nine, ten years old
sitting in the dealership for hours and hours and watching the battle.
You know she just you
know she just wanted to be real like give me the bottom line and let’s go from
there and they were using tactics and they were doing all kinds of crazy stuff
and it drove her crazy. And I think it’s just about being authentic, it’s you
know and this is the one thing I learned from them and I’m the same way as well.
It’s like when I find somebody I trust that I bought from, I will continue to
buy from that person whether instead of stores, over the phone, it’s at a
company. Like I like somebody who I trust who I know will just give me straight
answers, and if that’s the case then what’s interesting is that price doesn’t
matter as much.
Like I have dealt with
people where I know I have paid more for items but I trusted them and I liked
them and I knew that they were gonna steer me the right direction, and I was
fine paying more for it right. And so I think that’s key for me.
Daniel: Yeah and I think you’re leaning, that’s something that I
think is really important in understanding too is that you’re, you should end
us a transaction whatever it was and whatever the result is whether it’s a sink
or swim or a buyer died. That person should walk away saying regardless of the
outcome, I would work with them again. I don’t feel betrayed, I don’t feel like
my needs haven’t been met or that I’ve been, the wools been pulled over my eyes.
You know regardless of the outcome both parties should walk away and say that
this was something that we would try again.
Jason: Yeah for sure, I mean it’s and then it shifts to
relationships and we’re talking you know like we talked about. I’m 43 years old
so you know I grew up in a time you know there was no internet, there was no
knowledge in the hands of most consumers right. So, you go into a car
dealership, you don’t know what the price that you should be paying or what the
options are how much they paid for the car or what you could get that car for
in Minnesota like you don’t know you could easily do that definitely not at the
time. And so the leverage of power was in the salespersons hand because they were the
keeper of the knowledge right.
It’s the classic real
estate model where real estate agents have had the power because they had all
the knowledge of the market and houses and prices and access to everything. And
then with the internet that shifted, so consumers had the same amount of
knowledge and the playing field was much more level. And so you know that now
especially with information available, it’s all about relationships and you
know somebody who you’re gonna want to do it again and again. And you know one
of the big things that I focus on with sales reps and with companies is using
what you’re doing, you’re selling, you’re moving is forward in one transaction
but really the end game is all about the referral and the relationships.
Daniel: Yeah, I talk about this quite a bit, there is such a
convergence these days of entertainment and sales. And it’s always sort of like
a performance element of sales has always been there, but you know increasingly
so as we’re in a world where there’s instant gratification and constant gaining
in all facets of life. If you’re not interesting as a salesperson in some way
whether it’s from a product standpoint or an intelligence standpoint or you
just know a couple really good jokes, then you’re gonna be playing from behind
as a salesperson.
And I always joke that
comedians now finally have some side hustle opportunity in becoming salespeople,
so.
Jason: But I would counter that though and just to kind of debate a
different perspective, I think it also really depends on what you’re selling. If
you’re helping let’s say you know because a lot of my background has been debt
relief type stuff, so people who are buried in credit card debt, buried in
student loans or mortgages or you know things they can’t pay for some levity is
nice, some jokes are nice really what they’re craving more is empathy and
solution. And what I found works well, because it’s a transaction they want to
trust it professional more than they want a friend is, you’ve got to be careful
about breaking into the friend zone.
And you know you don’t
want to go full-on mode, but one way to look at it is like a transaction just
like the DMV. Sometimes the sales transaction even if it’s a big ticket is all
about just getting it done in the trust side. And when you go to DMV you know
it’s not gonna be very fun but you know they’re gonna take care of you and
they’re gonna solve your problem. And you’ll be you know hopefully after a few
hours, you’ll be taken care.
Daniel: Yeah.
Jason: And I think it would different people like you said with
mirroring, I think with some of the prospects you talk to, some jokes helps and
things help all of them are all about business some of them you know you just
want the bottom line they just want to know, you know that speaks to them more
than the joking you know sales person that wants to talk about sports all the
time. And then for other people if you get to the bottom line too fast, you’re
gonna totally blow it and they won’t trust you because they won’t like you in
that way.
Daniel: So, let me ask you then, how do you value report building? Is
rapport building something that you would train around?
Jason: Yes, and I and I covered that in this week as well but you
know obviously that’s really specific for every industry. So, there’s some
high-level parts that I always focus on, and it’s really the right amount of
rapport. But like I said it’s that friend zone boundary you have to watch out
for. Because people don’t generally like to do business with friends, they like
to do people business with people that they like and trust and feel good about
and feel like they will take care of their needs, but not necessarily friends,
right.
Like most people don’t
turn to their friends and say here’s all my money, can you be my financial
planner & investment for me, you know unless they know that trust and true
professional it could be really tough. So, I think the right amount of rapport
and I think it’s really you know back to your mirroring point it comes down to
what does that person seem to be interested in and how much rapport makes sense,
and then also how much time you have. What I see a lot of sales reps fail at is
they go into rapport mode at the gate because they feel like that’s super important.
And then they blow 5,
10, 15 minutes on rapport next thing you know they’re talking about recipes and
restaurants and sports and weather and then the prospect has to go. And they
basically wasted 15 minutes of chitchat on rapport building, because they were
so nervous instead of just get into the facts. Like a little bit of rapport and
I feel like rapport is something you do as you go. I don’t need to have a
conversation with you what it starts out where we talk about sports and weather
and where you live and all of these things.
For there to be enough
report for me to help you as a professional, and as we go let’s have more of a
relationship and I’ll sprinkle in rapport. Because I actually do care about you
as a person.
Daniel: Yeah, and it’s actually interesting to kind of focus on and
finding that balance. And I think that every rep is slightly different in there
from a rapport building standpoint. I saw report last year that was really
intriguing and as you might imagine someone’s putting data around rapport.
Jason: Of course.
Daniel: And one of the top drivers or influencers of sales from a
rapport standpoint was identifying that you were from the same, you grew up in
the same town.
Jason: Got it.
Daniel: If you identify that you were from the same town that
apparently had the largest influential bump on whether or not that person would
do business with you.
Jason: Interesting.
Daniel: Super interesting report.
Jason: It makes total sense, I mean you know people want to work
with people they know and trust and like. And so obviously if there’s a common
thing that breaks the barrier. I have found in many sales organizations I’ve
been a part of that did nationwide marketing either like part of the US or all
of the US is the closing rate of people from the same state as the office or
reps or call center was always higher. Because you’re in the same state, it’s
like okay well where are you at you’re in Washington, oh we’re in Washington
too or California or Nevada whatever that is. And they’re like okay cool this
feels a little more real.
Daniel: Yeah, if you’re calling on people in Boston in the middle of
winter and you’re in San Diego.
Jason: Yeah.
Daniel: Really are close race.
Jason: You know you definitely don’t know about the weather, you’re
gonna lose that that debate all the time. And so I wanted to go back before I
forget you had asked me a question about what I learned from my parents. I got
to throw this out and tell this story because I think it’s hilarious and I talk
about soul time. The other thing I learned from my parents growing up as a kid
is, if you’re gonna sell something to people right, especially where there’s
more than one person involved, husband-wife, close relationship, family you
know an adult and then you know their parents are involved.
So, it’s a guy and you know
that his parents are gonna be involved in whatever this is right. So on the
consumer side or even if it’s business and you know that there’s multiple
people, multiple stakeholders who are gonna have to make decisions is, make
sure they’re all on board with it. Because if you sell to one and you know the
other one was left in the dark it will come back to haunt you and it will come
back to get you. You will get an angry call or something angry from the other
party who felt left out.
And here’s the funny
story that this is this is partly why I learned this also in years and sales is,
I remember being a kid this is back in the day no caller ID you know people
called and you just answered. It was back in the day when somebody called you
or knocked on the door, you were excited because that was probably somebody who
wanted to talk to right. And so I remember my dad answered the phone and three
minutes later he was grabbing his wallet and pulling out his credit card, right.
And this was just has
turned out to be a cold call and my mom rips the phone out of his hand and it’s
like don’t ever call here again, we don’t want to buy it and then like hung up
the phone and then took away my dad’s phone answering privileges. Because he was
just gonna buy, he’s trusting, he was gonna just happen and my mom’s like wait
we don’t need that. And you know if you’re doing a sale, an opportunity you
call anybody or talk anybody, just make sure you cover all of it or it’ll come
back and haunt you.
Daniel: That’s good lesson.
Jason: yeah, I thought I was yeah, I just remember that so vividly
it was it was hilarious.
Daniel: Man you got some wise parents.
Jason: Yeah, for sure I think most people do, let me get down for
sure.
Daniel: Of course as do I.
Jason: So, what do you think, the last question I had or the thought
I was having is, you know obviously you do in marketing right. So, you’re a
marketing guy you’re driving you’re focused on marketing you’re driving inbound
calls or you’re doing campaigns which are making those outbound calls all right.
Somebody’s seeing the marketing they’re seeing the letter whether they know
your brand or not, website they fill out the form you know people are still
skeptical. But, and they know that the salesperson is gonna want something and
the company is going to benefit from it and they still need the help and want
the help and call in or go in or do whatever respond.
And I mean it’s just
fundamentally interesting how people have this level of where they don’t trust
anybody kind of back to your point about Amazon where like literally there is
no trust. But people still have need and they still make those calls or fill
out those forms.
Daniel: Yeah and there’s a trigger there right, and that’s one of the
most challenging things to uncover sometimes is, when and why you’re actually
being successful. You know it takes a lot of you know – to really uncover the
individual elements. I used to refer to it as single variable isolation.
Jason: Well.
Daniel: Tech, yeah I know I just blew your mind with that, it anyone
like lists even say it’s like a text at like a paid search text ad. Any one of
those words could pose as a trigger and the order of the words can be an
entirely different trigger as well. And you’re constantly trying to answer the
question what was that trigger, what was the thing that that person saw and
interpreted from my advertising or my ad unit, my webinar, my blog post. What
did they interpret from that, that connected with either their expectations or
their sense of urgency, their challenges what was that link?
And it’s not an easy
thing to necessarily come upon that right away. I think it’s sometimes harder
to find out why things are working than why things are failing.
Jason: Interesting, well on that note I think that’s a great place
to stop Daniel. I appreciate your time, this has been super fun not this
standard show, turning a tables on me. I appreciate that, that’s fun. Like I
said I’m gonna include all of your information that notes, so people can find
you. And you know I could see us doing this again and cover and lots more
topics as you know I’m sure we could have kept doing on this one here.
Daniel: Let’s do it again my brother and I’ll bring some jokes next
time and you tell me not to use them because -.
Jason: I will let you do the jokes, it will be great building
rapport and Trust. And it will make me and the listeners trust you even more
with more great jokes.
Daniel: Love it.
Jason: Alright cool, I appreciate that and everyone listening make
sure you subscribe, rate, leave a comment. All that’s appreciated this is
everywhere iTunes, Stitcher, Spotify, Google Play, on our website Sound Cloud.
But until next time always remember that everything in life is sales and people
remember the experience you gave them.