The media often take the side of homeowners who say they're prohibited by their community association from flying flags and displaying other patriotic and religious symbols on their homes or in their yards. In this episode, Betsy provides the facts and explains how state statutes supersede community rules.

Betsy - Hi, I'm Betsy. And this is CAM Matters. Welcome to our show today on enforcement and more. We started in a previous show with some general things about enforcement, the who and the why. But today, we're gonna talk a little bit more about specifics. Come join us. Welcome to CAM Matters, condos, co-ops, HOAs and beyond. Betsy Barbieux is an information leader in Florida on community association living, rights and obligations. She is an expert on the rights and obligations of owners as well as the association. If you live or are planning to live in the state of Florida, there's a good chance you'll be part of a community association. And by the end of the show, you'll know a little bit more about community associations and why they matter.

Suzanne - Hi, I'm Suzanne Linn, and this is Betsy Barbieux. We are talking about CAM Matters and today, specifically about enforcement. Now we talked about the who, the why and the what. But we didn't get into the juicy details.

Betsy - Oh--

Suzanne - And we're gonna--

Betsy - I know what you're gonna do.

Suzanne - Let's do kind of devil's advocate here because I'm gonna take the side of the homeowners. And then, you're gonna give the other side which most people never hear. No one has ever heard the other side--

Betsy - No.

Suzanne - on news.

Betsy - No, definitely not.

Betsy - They always hear your side.

Suzanne - Which is--

Betsy - But they don't ever hear my side.

Suzanne - For example, I move into a community. And these mean boards, they don't let prisoners of war fly the POW flag.

Betsy - Yeah, but nobody tells--

Suzanne - So again, we're getting into these--

Betsy - the other side of the story.

Suzanne - What's the other side?

Betsy - Let's tell the other side of the story. And I'm gonna try to say this and not cry, but I'm gonna cry.

Suzanne - Okay, oh.

Betsy - But I am a mother of a United States Marine.

Suzanne - Oh.

Betsy - And--

Betsy - So this is personal.

Betsy - Thank you, Adam Howard, First Sergeant Adam Howard for service. But I'm sayin' that to say, I am for the military. And I am for the flag. But, but you signed a contract that said you could put things outside your home or outside your front door or that you could not.

Suzanne - Right.

Betsy - It's a contract. It's not personal. A lot of documents say that you cannot hang any flags, whether it's in a condo or in a co-op or an HOA. But the statutes supersede your documents. So in Florida, and I don't know about all those other states, but in Florida--

Suzanne - There are other states besides Florida?

Betsy - In other states besides Florida, I don't know about them, but Florida allows exemptions from enforcement.

Betsy - Okay, what does that mean in lawyer terms?

Betsy - See if your mind will wrap around that.

Suzanne - It didn't.

Betsy - In other words, your documents might say you're supposed to enforce something like you can't have any yard art.

Suzanne - Okay.

Betsy - But the statutes supersede and say, certain kinds of things are exempt from enforcement, even though your documents say the board has to do it.

Suzanne - Is that the case with flags?

Betsy - That is the case with flags, and that's where I'm goin'.

Suzanne - Okay.

Betsy - In a condominium, you can fly an American flag and on five days of the year, the military holidays of the year, you can fly a second flag, representing the Army, Navy, Air Force, Marine Corps and Coast Guard. It has to be a portable, removable flag. So you can't bolt it, in a condominium, to the outside of the building. Because in a condominium, owners don't own the outside of the building.

Suzanne - Right.

Betsy - And the thought there is, you can't bolt something to the outside of something that does not belong to you. But they can have a stand or something that's removable and portable for the flag. One flag, United States flag, and five days of the year, one of the armed forces flags.

Suzanne - So no Confederate--

Betsy - No Confederate.

Suzanne - No football flags--

Betsy - No football flags, none of those, nothin' else you can fly. In a homeowner's association, you can fly two flags from your home all the time. You can fly the American flag and the Florida flag or the American flag and Army, Navy, Air Force, Marine Corps, Coast Guard. And they added, in HOA, POW/MIA.

Suzanne - Oh, okay.

Betsy - So I don't why they didn't add it in condo law.

Suzanne - Interesting.

Betsy - But in HOA law, you can fly the POW/MIA flag. Also in a homeowner's association, because a homeowner owns the dirt that they live on, you can erect a free-standing flagpole, not more than 20 feet high, so long as it doesn't block any sight lines or intersections or anything like that. And the statute goes on to say, you can fly two flags from that flagpole.

Suzanne - No kidding.

Betsy - Yep.

Betsy - And again, you can fly the United States flag and the Florida flag or Army, Navy, Air Force, Marine Corps, Coast Guard, POW/MIA flag.

Suzanne - Okay, so this is kind of a pole that we're talkin' about.

Betsy - A pole, a 20 foot pole.

Suzanne - So let me ask you this. You know how when you go to a store, and you've got the flags. They're the holiday flags.

Betsy - Mm-hmm.

Suzanne - I mean, does that come under the umbrella of a flag, or is that more art?

Suzanne - That you would like, stick in a--

Suzanne - No, like it would go in your flagpole. It could be a football team, or it could be maybe a Florida--

Betsy - Oh no, no, no, no college, no. The only flags that can be flown from the flagpole--

Suzanne - Okay great, that's a flagpole, opposed to, okay, opposed to almost art on your house.

Betsy - No, no other flags.

Suzanne - Huh.

Betsy - No other flags, period.

Suzanne - Okay.

Betsy - It's either the United, whether it's a condominium or a co-op, condominium or a HOA, it's the United States flag, Florida flag, military flag.

Suzanne - I gotta go. I gotta go take our flag down 'cause I didn't know this.

Betsy - No, we can't have like a flamingo or something out there.

Suzanne - No kidding, okay.

Betsy - No decorative flags, no college flags, no other special group kinds of flags.

Suzanne - Wow.

Betsy - Only American flag and Florida flag or the military ones.

Suzanne - Okay, this is really good to know.

Betsy - And that is not--

Suzanne - Wow.

Betsy - the board disrespecting veterans. It's not the board disrespecting those who've served our country. They're simply enforcing the regulations of the statutes and the documents.

Suzanne - So you see a lot of other flags, like Florida State University.

Betsy - Mm-hmm.

Suzanne - You know, you see a lot of them. I just thought that was okay.

Betsy - No, no.

Suzanne - Wow, okay, all right.

Betsy - And the statute for condominiums goes on to allow the attachment of a religious symbol. And the original request was from our Jewish friends in South Florida.

Betsy - This is interesting 'cause you've told me about this before. Let's come back. We're gonna talk about the religious symbols right after this. Are you ready for a new career? Do you have skills or interests in management, real estate, construction, maintenance, accounting, strategic planning, project management, budgets, human resource management, lawn and landscaping, pool services or any other expertise needed to operate a community association? If you do, Community Association Management could be for you. For more information, feel free to email Betsy at [email protected] or visit the Florida CAM Schools website at www.floridacamschools.com. Florida Community Association Management continues to grow. Career opportunities abound.

Suzanne - Hi, welcome back to CAM Matters. I'm Suzanne with Betsy. And I'm still reeling from the whole flag thing.

Suzanne - I mean--

Suzanne - She's gonna get a violation.

Suzanne - My gosh, I know; I know. Like football teams? That's seriously not okay?

Betsy - Mm-mm.

Suzanne - Okay. So we're moving from flag violations and rules into religious symbols because how many times do you see a statue of Mary? What is the problem with that, and how did it start?

Betsy - Okay again, and I'm having to talk kind of out of two sides of my mouth, condo and homeowner's association.

Suzanne - Sure, right, right.

Betsy - We don't have any specific law for the flags and religious symbols for cooperatives. So I'm talking condos and HOAs. In condominiums, I think we sort of tagged on, started on that just a minute ago. But in condominiums, you don't own the outside. So the outside of the front door is not yours, but the inside of the front door is yours. And there are exceptions to everything I say.

Suzanne - So your living space.

Betsy - Your living space is yours. The Jewish tradition is to attach a mezuzah, I should have brought one, to the door frame. Some of 'em are this big. Some of 'em are huge. But it fits on the molding on the outside of your door. It has a piece of scripture rolled up inside. And it acts as a blessing to the family and a reminder of their heritage as they come and go.

Betsy - And they touch it.

Suzanne - And they get a blessing, right?

Betsy - And so, they come and go. So that was the request for the legislation. And the legislators wisely didn't limit it to the mezuzah, but said that anything that is three by six by one and a half inches, any religious object can be attached to the mantle or the frame of your door.

Suzanne - It can be.

Betsy - It can be. In a homeowner's association, you do own the outside of your house with restrictions on certain things like flags--

Suzanne - Right.

Betsy - that can be flown from it. Yeah, you're gonna get in so much trouble.

Suzanne - We are. I can see a letter comin' already.

Betsy - The other thing that a lot of homeowner association documents say is that you cannot have any yard art.

Suzanne - Okay, 'cause art is very subjective.

Betsy - Yeah, well anything then, in the yard. So no fountains, no signs, no this house protected by an attack cat.

Suzanne - Right, they're so cute though.

Betsy - You know, kind of those kinds of things. And fountains or the gazing ball or the Mother Mary, those kinds of things cannot be in your yard.

Suzanne - The gazing ball, seriously?

Betsy - Seriously, those ball things.

Suzanne - Wow.

Betsy - They cannot be in your yard. Those are considered yard art. The only thing that the homeowner association law exempts, that says you can have, is a ramp that an owner who has a medical necessity can construct a ramp so long as it's aesthetically pleasing, as small as it can be to meet the needs. The person with a disability has to complete an application and approval by the board and submit a physician's affidavit to be able to construct the ramp. And the other thing that they are allowed to have is like the ADT sign outside the front door.

Suzanne - You are allowed.

Betsy - You are allowed to have that. That is a sign, but that is exempt from enforcement. So you may have the sign so long as it's not more than 10 feet away from your door.

Suzanne - Interesting.

Betsy - And again, this points back to uniformity, consistency, everything looking clean and pristine and nice and not having all sorts of mismatched flags and all these things in the yard. You may not be able to have your trash can kept outside your garage if you have a front-facing garage. You may have to keep your garage door closed when you're home, just things that keep the neighborhood looking nice.

Suzanne - So I'm gonna throw some things out to ya. How about like, a swing, like the double swing or you know?

Betsy - In a homeowner's association, you would have to check with your documents to see about that. You may be allowed to have that out of sight maybe in the back.

Suzanne - Oh, okay.

Betsy - But it might not be allowed in the front.

Suzanne - A birdbath, a bird feeder?

Betsy - I'm gonna say no on that.

Suzanne - Wow.

Betsy - Maybe in the back that can't be seen.

Suzanne - Huh.

Betsy - There would be things that we don't wanna see it from the street.

Suzanne - Right.

Betsy - We want the lawns to look nice and smooth and nice, clean.

Suzanne - So I mean, it's really not personal, and I love--

Betsy - It's not personal.

Suzanne - I love the way that we started off the segment with the flags because that is, I mean, truly something so personal to you.

Betsy - And I cry--

Suzanne - And yet, you understand--

Betsy - when I think about it.

Betsy - so I know. But yet, you understand. This is what matters.

Betsy - That's what matters. God bless those who serve our country. But don't move here.

Suzanne - Right.

Betsy - You know, if this just doesn't suit you, then there are plenty of other places that you can live in Florida.

Suzanne - Sure. Betsy, this has been kind of a touchy topic. So if someone wants to reach out to you, if they've got questions, maybe they're interested in getting into management, how would they get a hold of you?

Betsy - [email protected] is an easy way to get me. And you probably can just google my name--

Suzanne - Yes.

Betsy - if you can spell it.

Suzanne - Right, go ahead and spell it. We've got it on the--

- Betsy B-A-R-B-I-E-U-X, and I think if you just google my name, I'll probably pop right up. I'm on LinkedIn; I'm on Facebook. So there are ways to get me.

Suzanne - And absolutely, don't forget to subscribe, and send in a question if you'd like to.

Betsy - Oh please do.

Suzanne - Maybe you'll inspire a topic for a show.

Betsy - Thank you.

Announcer - Yeah, thanks for joining us today. Thank you for listening to CAM Matters. Be sure to subscribe, so you don't miss any future episodes. For more information, feel free to email Betsy at [email protected] or visit the Florida CAM Schools website at www.floridacamschools.com. Information provided on this show is general in nature and does not constitute legal advice. Please contact a licensed attorney for your specific situation.