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[E9a] Mindset Week: Bonus Episode – Richard Smith
On this very special episode I have Richard Smith from
Refract.ai on with me and we discuss a follow up to the Watching Film Episode (#9).
We discuss why sales people don’t like receiving or
asking for feedback, if sales professionals are actually ‘professional’, and
the best traits for being the type of salesperson who wants to achieve success
long term and understands ‘watching film’ is an important tool.
Enjoy this bonus episode as a part of Mindset Week on The
Sales Experience Podcast
More information on Richard Smith:
Bio: Richard is Co-Founder and Head of Sales for
Conversation Intelligence company Refract. He has a passion for helping sales
people become more successful through coaching, personal development, and
better understanding the science of sales.
You can find Richard:
LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/richard-smith-refract/
Twitter @richard_refract
Article that he mentioned in the episode – https://www.refract.ai/blog/sales-coaching-the-disconnect-epidemic
More information on Refract:
Website – www.refract.ai
Twitter @refract_ai
LinkedIn Company Page – https://www.linkedin.com/company/refract
Episode 9a – Transcript
Jason: Welcome to a special bonus episode of the sales experience podcast. My name is Jason Cutter, I have a fun guest on the show today, his name is Richard Smith. He lives in Newcastle in the UK, half a world apart, half a time, half a world of time zones apart he runs a company called refract. Like I said in Episode one, I’m not very big on interview shows with long intros and setups and then also sales pitches.
So, Richard will give
me a bunch of links, I’m gonna have a lot of stuff in the show notes that you
can find him online on LinkedIn, his website, a lot of great videos and fun
stuff. Richard welcome to the sales experience podcast.
Richard: Jason thanks for having me on. I’m pleased that you also accept
foreigners on your podcast. So, I’m very delighted to be here.
Jason: Well you know what’s great about this is, not only are you the
first guest on the show that because you’re outside the US, it’s now
international. So, it’s the international sales experience podcast which is you
know that may be partially why I wanted you to be on the show I don’t know.
Richard: Well, it’s always good to take things overseas and you know
I think we can now call this officially a global podcast, so.
Jason: Yeah it’s like the second week which is awesome, so, I
appreciate it, all right. So, the sales experience related conversation that I
wanted to have with you is a round feedback. So, it’s mindset week on the
podcast this week and it’s segues perfect into what you and your company do. I
know when we were chatting on LinkedIn, I mentioned to you that I was doing an
episode called watching film, and I could tell you were laughing during the
chat. Tell me what your feedback your thoughts were when you heard that why was
that funny?
Richard: Well, you know I think, if you look at any sort of
profession in the world and you know let’s just take sport. And if you look at
the top performing teams in any line of sport whether that’s solo place or golf
players for example through to an NFL team. And one of the ways that they get
better is by watching back, what they did you know. Oftentimes this is called
kind of playing back the game tape and ultimately it’s how a lot of teams a lot
of individuals become better at their craft.
Because they take the
chance to literally watch back or listen back or observe what they did
previously to look for ways to basically better themselves or even find the
things that worked really well, so they can replicate those. And there’s
no you know there’s, it’s not a coincidence that people at the top of their
game in professional sports are doing this on a daily, if not regular basis
it’s no wonder why coaches and the top coaches play back the game tape as part
of, because of the kind of the foundations of how they can strategize and look
for the you know look for those kind of fine-tuning and areas to improve.
So, I’ve before I
started refract I long wondered why was the same approach to playing back tape
and observing how we did things previously, why was that not being, why was
that staying experience not coming into the world of sales. And I think kind of
book speaks to a bigger problem that we call the sales profession as in we’re
professionals, but many companies and many salespeople don’t actually act like
professionals. And this new concept of actually playing back at the tape of
sales conversations or listening or watching back to how we actually perform in
real life selling situations is as crucial to improving in the world of sales,
as it is to the NFL team preparing for their next game.
So, yeah you are kind
of when you talked about this topic Jason, and I thought you know this is a
really interesting concept. Because watching back the game tape is highly
applicable in many other sectors and disciplines and is slowly working its wind
at the field of sales too.
Jason: Yeah and I think it’s so fascinating when you really dive
into it from a high level and you look at like you said how professional sports
is operated as a profession with coaches and support staff the actual players.
Everyone involved with the goal of winning with improvement, with overcoming
challenges. And you look at anything similar which is like the profession of
being a doctor, a lawyer, maybe a professional actor, you know could be on
stage or could be in movies. Where there’s so much rehearsal, there’s so much
practice, there’s training, there’s requirements there’s scripting.
Let’s say there’s a
process and then you look at sales and sales like you said, it’s called the
sales profession, but how many are really run professionally. And I know you
know a lot of the topics I talk about as well with companies with people and
post is about training. I mean you know in a lot of other professional
organizations there’s training that’s done and it’s structured with sales
doesn’t seem to be that way. And so when you take that even further in watching
film, it just doesn’t seem to happen. Why, you know I have my thoughts on it,
but why do you think that doesn’t happen so much in a sales organization where
they don’t treat it like a profession where feedback is critical?
Richard: I just think that there’s been a mentality in sales for so
long which is kind of you know we all just figure it out as we go along and we
all make loads of mistakes until we find the winning formula. And I think
traditionally that’s kind of got companies by yet, in the modern age where the
competition is so fierce you know, so many products and services are on the
face of it, so similar. It’s becoming increasingly hard for buyers to really
understand why they should choose one product over another, because they all
look and feel the same. They all have the same value propositions, they all
have the same features and functionality and service levels and all the rest of
it.
And so the one thing
that every sales organization should be acknowledging today is that, no longer
is the product going to do the selling for them, it’s actually how their
salespeople sell which is their key differentiator. It’s in how their sales
teams improve the quality of conversations, they’re having with buyers, how
they’re helping buyers make buying decisions who buys, who maybe are confused, who
need education who need their eyes open as to why certain products and services
are valuable. So, I think traditionally Jason this has just been a you know
much like many people in sales they kind of wing it.
And I think that’s how
a lot of organizations have kind of got by but things and times are changing. And
until I think companies are slowly starting to realize that until they truly
look to understand how their sales people are selling, how they can look for
those fine-tuned, fine-tuning moments how they can give feedback to their
salespeople to become to become better, until they start to really do that
they’re going to be left behind. And I think that’s the kind of the critical
stage in life that we’re at today is that, this is what should be front and
center of every single sales organizations mind.
Jason: Well and I think it’s interesting how well a company can do
without a structure, without a plan, without you know feedback, training,
development all of those parts that you mentioned and just what goes into a
sailor’s agent. Whether it’s business-to-business sales which is you know
mostly what your focus or a lot of your clients are, mine is business to
consumer so direct to consumer either way. But it’s interesting how many
companies survive you on the backs of tearing through a lot of reps.
So if you’re a
salesperson listen to this you know if you’ve been in the business for a long
time or any length of time, you’ve either come and gone from one organization
to another or you’ve been in one place and you’ve seen co-workers come and go,
maybe at mass volume. And you know I think that’s how they get by. I think
that’s you know unfortunate for the salespeople who if they were nurtured if
they were given the proper tools could get where they want to get to.
Richard: Yeah, I think it’s a really salient point you make about the
impact of feedback on retention. I did a survey towards the back end of last
year which came off the back of me, reading the results of a report which
identified the disconnect between salespeople and sales management. When it comes
to coaching, the top level summary of the report was that less than 40 percent
of the salespeople interviewed said that, they receive any coaching whatsoever
any feedback from their managers whatsoever.
Yet over 80% of the
managers that were interviewed, all happily said are we coach our salespeople
all the time. So, there’s this massive disconnect between what salespeople are
feel they’re getting from their managers and what their managers are actually
saying. And the survey that I did looked at the impact of what this is causing,
and yes there’s the impact of a lack of coaching and feedback happening in an
organization is poor sales performance reps not meeting quota.
But the biggest problem
that companies that I asked and felt was that the biggest knock-on impact of
this was down to the retention of their sales reps and retention of high
performers. And you know the modern day particularly Millennials coming through,
they wats to know that they’re the job that they’re doing they’re gonna be
getting improved, they’re gonna be getting feedback. And if they don’t then they’re
not gonna hang around for long, and they’re gonna go and look for a company who
was actually going to give them it. And we all know the cost of hiring and
hires that don’t work out, it’s a huge number and for companies to deal with.
So, they need to
understand that the wait retaining, salespeople that reach the wait retaining
their highest performers is by building in a culture of feedback and coaching
into their, in the best sales organization.
Jason: So why, let’s talk about reps for example on the sales side.
Why do you think somebody would not want the feedback?
Richard: Yeah, it’s a good question. So, I think probably look at
this from a couple of different levels what from my experience. I’ve often seen
sales people being reticent to receive feedback because it sounds like a harsh
word. but it’s arrogance, it’s a feeling that they can’t get any better, but you
know I’m an experienced salesperson I’ve been doing this job for years why should
I receive any feedback, I can’t be, I can’t get any better. I think that is
ultimately a poisonous, it’s a poisonous mentality to have an it any sales
organization of feeling that we can’t get better as a sales team that we have
salespeople, who will resist feedback, because they feel like they know it all.
On the flip side people
who are reluctant to receive feedback in is that, they they’re not coachable. They
don’t respond well to constructive feedback or they’re reluctant they accept
feedback but they were looked into try and put that into place, again you have
a risk of a poisonous culture there. Because the time and effort that sales
management are putting into giving feedback to help make their salespeople
better, if that’s not being practice then they’re going to become stagnant the
salespeople are going to continue doing what they’ve always done and you’re
essentially wasting valuable and coaching time which is already at a premium
for sales management.
And I think the
solution to solving that problem actually stems from a much earlier on from the
point of recruitment. I think companies and this is one of the things that we
measure against it refract when we hire salespeople is one of the big
metrics we measure against is coach ability, the sales person’s willingness and
enthusiasm to accept feedback to put it into practice. That’s one of the things
that we measure against, and I think that’s what every company who take this
seriously should be should, also be looking to do at the point of hiring.
Because you know you
get the wrong person on who’s not coachable, who doesn’t respond well to
feedback, if you hire that person it’s very difficult to change that mentality
once you’ve got them on board.
Jason: And that I couldn’t agree more anyone listening to this
who’s listened to the other episodes this week knows episode 7 was open and
willingness. And I know that’s the number one thing I’ve seen, so it’s
interesting that you, you know mention that unprompted and unscripted in
advance as far as what the answer is. Because I know for my side with
everyone I’ve seen come and unfortunately go in the sales career and sales
business is that, they have to be coachable, open and willing it’s funny.
I have a story I tell a
lot of people especially new hires, and sometimes in you know when I’ve done
recruiting, meetings, interviews with potential candidates, you know there’s a
story I tell where I was at an organization, we had a script, we had a process.
The script was very much designed to help new people get success and learn the
process and then evolve away from having to be scripted, right. So, the script
isn’t a tool because we know it works. And I remember it was this guy second
day in training and he walks up to me.
And I wasn’t his
trainer I wasn’t his manager I was a bit higher up, but he basically walks up
to me and says I like your script, I think it could be good but I already know
what I’m doing, so I can’t wait to just throw that aside and do my own
thing, because I know what I’m good at. And he didn’t make it two weeks,
because he wasn’t open and willing and he couldn’t work within what we knew
worked over the phone, he wanted to do it his way and his way didn’t work. And
it’s fascinating, I mean this is the part that you know a lot of people don’t
want to talk about it. It’s kind of harsh but you know if you’re moving from
sales organization, the sales organization and you’re changing and you’re at a
new company at a certain point.
It’s kind of like
relationships right it’s not them it’s you, what is it about that you’re doing
like if your way work you would have been at the original company crushing it
or sitting on a beach somewhere on your big pile of money because you are so
good. And now sometimes it’s organization sometimes you have to change it,
sometimes things happen and it’s not a good fit but you know that openness that
willingness that coach ability like you said is so important. And then setting
it up from the beginning where you know the company says, we’re gonna give you
feedback and then here’s the feedback and it’s gonna be constant.
And you know like I
always say everyone hates hearing themselves, I hate hearing myself. I record
these podcasts and then I basically publish them because I don’t want to listen
to it, I don’t edit I don’t go through it. And so everyone hates hearing
themselves but it’s a necessary evil when it comes to improving, and basically
watching that film.
Richard: Yeah, I think one of my favorite course I’ve heard, this
year was somebody that said, if you hate listening to yourself so much why do
you think your customers or prospects should listen to yourself. I think was a
really salient point that I heard once and it’s it just kind of rings true that
if we hated listening back to ourselves on the phone to such an extent that we
simply refuse to do it, then how does that, what do we think our customers
think about how we sound. And I think ultimately it’s one of those things that
nobody ever really likes the sound of their own voice. But it’s just because
you’re not used to it.
And but I was gonna ask
you a question Jason, you know we talked about like coach ability there and I
talked about the importance of companies’ kind of measuring that to reduce
those problems down the line. I mean what methods have you seen in companies
trying to implement in order to measure, how coachable somebody is in that kind
of interview recruitment process as that’s often I think one of the big
challenges I often see a lot of companies struggling with?
Jason: You know what I’ve found is what works really well, this is
the important tip for any sales leaders or managers listening. So, I found it’s
a two stage approach, the first one is that you’ve got to understand a baseline
of what works for your organization. So, what I’ve done is used third-party
testing behavior, personality attributes and also some skill testing. And then
figured out what the right combination is by testing the current staff of all
the sales reps that I’ve had in my organization, that I have.
All of them not just
the good ones not, okay here’s the five top reps let me test them but all the
reps, and then compare those results literally doing data analytics versus
actual performance results. And draw the line in the sand between the
performers and the non-performers that are meeting expectations exceeding. And
then basically develop what that looks like what that personality makeup, how
open somebody is based on the testing. And then literally every new candidate
comes through the door giving them that testing, so that I can see how they
stack up.
And if they fit the
mold of what, I know can work you know plus or minus some you know percentage
wiggle room. Because people are people and you know it’s those sometimes
they’ll surprise you.
Richard: Yeah, I know I love that approach to testing. I think
testing in an assessment is part of the recruitment process is so valuable. It’s
kind of shows you things which you can’t always see in an interview and is kind
of up brings a bit more science to the equation rather than just judging
somebody based on you know an hour and a half oral interview. One of the things
that we do here to measure the salespersons receptiveness to feedback and coach
ability, it refracts is I do this in an exercise where we will play out a sales
call, or I will act as the prospect. And get the salesperson who act as the
salesperson, will record that call will then play the call back together.
And I’ll give them
feedback and the proof is in the pudding as to whether then we do the call a
second time around and to see did they put into practice the feedback that I’ve
given them or do they just ignore it. And then oftentimes that’s a one of the
telling signs of the sales person’s willingness to accept feedback which can
sometimes be quite critical feedback. But importantly how do they take that
feedback and actually put in a practice. And that’s I found that to be a very
effective way of measuring that upfront.
Jason: That’s brilliant and I can see that that would work
amazingly well. Because that’s literally testing for what you want. You could
throw out everything else in the interview process and just do that. And
obviously I’m gonna put a bunch of links in here you know the program, the
software that you have obviously helps facilitate that which is amazing. But
yeah, that would be if you want openness, willingness, coach ability then
literally does some kind of mock call or go through something give them
feedback see if they improve. And before you even said that you did the second
part which is do a second call to see if they’ve improved, I was just imagining
doing a call playing it back.
And if you’re face to
face with them giving that feedback and watching their reaction and sharing to
do it their defensive or not. And for anybody that’s listening to this that’s a
salesperson you know obviously I’m all mindset focusing on that this week
openness, willingness as Richard says being coachable. You know it’s letting go
of that ego and that survival mechanism and your primitive brain that’s kicking
in that wants to keep you safe. But safes not gonna get you to where you really
want to be in your life and achieving what you could be with your life.
And so if you’re a
salesperson make sure you focus on that, if you feel that defensiveness kick in
when you’re watching film when someone’s giving you feedback when someone’s
playing back you and then pointing out the things you did that didn’t work,
right. It’s something that’s good or bad just didn’t work in that time. Just
notice what your reaction is and what your feeling is at in that moment.
Richard: Yeah, and its funny Jason, but I’ve actually had a new sales
develop and representative start my team today. Hit they’re fresh out of
college this is their first sales role, you know no experience in sales but you
know they showed in the interview process that they had the right mindset, the
right coach ability levels the right ability to accept feedback. And you know
these are the kind of things that you know if you demonstrate that even if you
haven’t got sales experience that can you sure that you’ve got the right
behaviors and mindset to become successful in sales.
You’ve got the right willingness;
the skills will come but part of the battle is just demonstrating that you’ve
got the right will total in. And when I sat down with him today you know I kind
of went through here am I, so I’ve got like a slide that I go through with
every new salesperson who joins the team and I I have almost like ten tips to
success to sales success at refract. And there’s nothing in there that I’d say
is groundbreaking, but one of the, number one I think it’s number five on the
list is embrace feedback and don’t feel bad about it. Because the salespeople
that I’ve seen in my career, he wants success who weren’t successful of the
ones who were defensive, who push back on feedback, who thought that they knew
a better way.
And it’s the battle
that only leads to as you say, it’s stagnation and also just too poor cultural
in the organization. And it’s just getting people to understand that feedback
even though sometimes they might feel negative as long as the expectations from
the organization have been set up front that the whole purpose of giving
feedback is all about want to make you more successful, want to help you make
more Commission. Then embrace it and put into practice and the more successful
salespeople, I’ve worked with are the ones who’ve been able to do that really
well.
Jason: And I think it’s important like you said to set that
expectation upfront and then follow through with it. And it’s interesting you
said that about the new hire, the new person out of college with no experience,
you know I will tell you based on everything I’ve seen and done. Most of the
time I would rather have somebody with some customer facing experience and this
is good if you’re in sales or you’re thinking about getting in sales. Like this
is a really important team for my side is, if you’ve done something with the
public it could be customer service. Maybe you worked in a restaurant maybe you
worked in retail at the mall you’ve done something that involves some people,
so you’re comfortable enough having conversations.
But you’ve never really
done a sales job especially an either phone sales or like a face-to-face
whether it’s you know working in a call center or selling cars or you know
whatever it might be is that, I always prefer that kind of person who is hungry
and open and wants to make a career out of it and learn and read and digest. And
it’s just a blank canvas with no bad habits, versus the person who’s been
selling for 20 years that I know is going to be a battle every day to get them
to work within the framework of the organization’s structure of what works for
sales or what’s compliance or what’s required or the steps.
So, if you’re listening
to this and you’re thinking about getting into sales, you’re not sure about
sales or you’re new and you and you are kind of struggling that this it’s all
about that mindset. And if you’ve been in sales for a long time and I’ve seen
some of these people well which is always awesome is where they’ve been in
sales for 10, 15, 20 years. And they’re super open and they’re hungry and they
want to take all the awesome stuff that they know how to do, and then just aim
those bullets at a new process to make that successful.
Richard: Yeah totally agree Jason, and you know if there’s one thing
I just to kind of piggyback on talking to salespeople out. There is you know
you don’t have to be the most experienced person in the world to be successful
in sales. If you’ve got the willingness to learn the ability to accept embrace
feedback the ability to ask for feedback on a regular basis is quite key as
well and not be afraid to ask for feedback, and then you the skills will come.
And but it’s much harder to teach the skills to somebody who is resistant to
feed back who doesn’t have that mindset.
And again the most
successful salespeople that I’ve worked with in my career have been the ones
that have embraced it. And it’s kind of like this concept of marginal gains of
like, how can I just get like one percent better every single day. And you do
that by even if every day you just asked your manager what’s the one thing that
I could do better today and that would make me 1% better than yesterday, what
could I do differently, how could I optimize this, how could I improve that.
Though if you have that
mentality you will be a success in sales, whether it’s with your current
company or your future companies but you know that’s one thing that I can
almost say and without any shot of it, that’s the route to success.
Jason: Alright so that segues perfect back into you what kind of
started our conversation which was watching film. And which obviously and I
mentioned this in one of the podcast this week as well that you know that dates
me and makes me old. Because obviously it’s not film anymore and we don’t
videotape anything. And so forth, but when we’re talking about the concept of
watching film obviously you have your expertise in what you know works on your
side, because of your technology. As a manager giving feedback and as a rep to
receive the feedback or to get it in a certain format, what do you think works
best?
Like listen to this
recording here you go here’s some things to listen for or look for, you know without
a complete plug of what your software does which is it’s fine I’m gonna put
links in there. But like on the tactical basis on the ground roots level, like
what’s the best way to transfer the feedback from that sales manager to that
sales rep and for the sales rep to absorb it and then put it into practice.
Richard: Yes, there’s different things that we see, people implementing
here and I think ultimately the route that you choose really depends on your
sales team and your general kind of approach to this, and what you find to be
most effective with the reps in your team. I see some customers that we work
with and they really encourage getting reps to actually self, give themselves
feedback before they look to invite their managers. So, they will actually you
know they will literally play back one of their own sales calls and almost go
through the call them self and pinpoint the moments in the call, where they
thought they did things well or where they thought they could do things
differently.
Why that’s so powerful
is actually and this kind of ties into coaching in general is one of the things
in coaching is not just giving the salesperson all the answers is actually
letting them kind of trying to figure it out themselves. And oftentimes we are
very capable of picking out at least one or two things in a call that we feel
we could have done differently just by self-reflecting. Self-reflection being
one of the most powerful things that changes behaviors quickly. It’s kind of
understanding and realizing ourselves what we could have done differently that
would have had a better outcome.
And they will then
share their thoughts with the manager and the manager will then give them will
basically share their thoughts as to how much do they agree with the
salesperson and what they’ve already identified and is there anything additional
that they would add to that to that kind of feedback list. It may be that you
know a lot of the times salespeople don’t know where they could have done,
where they could have done things differently. You know they you might come off
a sales call, the sales calls gone dreadfully wrong. But you can’t really point
to the moment or why the call took went so badly.
And that’s where
inviting the feedback from a manager to listen to that conversation to give
point is to provide suggestions to ask questions about things that we were
doing at certain points of that conversation or certain things that we missed
or didn’t say or the way that we responded getting that feedback from the
manager can just bring that realization very quickly to the sales person. It’s
almost like, you know I had an example of this recently with one of my own team
members, who came off a call last week.
She’s just started
learning to do kind of more later stage discovery conversations in the sales
process and you know we came off the call and she said, I said how did it go
and she said well it was okay and I said okay. So, when you say okay, what do
you mean by that, she’s well I saw the five out of ten said well what do you
think could have made it a seven out of ten. And she said to be honest I really
don’t know it just was one of those where you know I kind of couldn’t really
point to where I you know I know I could have done things differently. I just
don’t know where and I was able to just you know play back those key moments
and kind of make herself realize the things that she could have done
differently.
But I think feedback is
important that it’s delivered in the right way as well. Often times feedback
can come across, can be received or perceived in the wrong way. And feedback
can sometimes be perceived as too negative. And so I think it’s important for
managers to still embrace a coaching conversation and where they’re sat down
with a salesperson and the manager is busy talking through the moments of the
call of where they could have done things differently. Asking questions to help
the salesperson, kind of elaborate or give their input. And just making sure
sometimes that you know feedback when it’s given over in a text format can
sometimes and not, the consumers lack context.
And oftentimes just
having that coaching conversation with the salesperson can just make sure that
it’s all received in the right way with the right meaning behind it.
Jason: Yeah and I know from myself whenever I’ve given feedback
like obviously they’re setting the expectation upfront, in the recruiting, in
the hiring, in the onboarding, in the training process. Like even once they
start working with leads and prospects whether it’s on the phone or face to
face is setting the expectation of the feedback that I give will be with the
purpose of helping them win and doesn’t come my ego. So, as a Sales Leader,
it’s not about me needing to feel good by putting you down or criticizing you,
it’s literally from in my heart. I want you to be successful, I know it could
work, I know what it does take to make it work and be successful to sell
something whatever it is.
Because anytime I’ve
ever sold or managed a team, it’s I’ve always started out by selling it first,
a while to understand it. So, I know what works I know what it takes I know how
to deal with people and so my feedback is really to help them win, it’s not
about an ego right. Like a professional coach who’s giving a player
feedback to help them win. It’s not about I’m the coach you’re not, it’s not
like I’m the parent you’re the kid you listen to me or else and I’m in charge
or else which I know there’s some sales managers out there who are like that.
And that’s probably a
bunch of the industry is that the sales rep who was promoted to manager who has
the ego and feels like they know more than everyone else, versus I just want
you to win. And so I always preface everything with I’m gonna give you some
feedback just so you know my goal is to help you win. It’s not about me it’s
about you, like I could obviously hire more people the key is I want you to be
successful if you’re supposed to. If you’re a rep listen to this obviously make
sure that’s where the feedbacks coming from like you said.
And it could be a
hundred percent harsh like you just totally sucked on that call, it was
terrible here’s all the feedback doesn’t ever do that again. If it’s set up
right you know you could still take that on because most likely you know the
salesperson knows they did that incorrect. And on the feedbacks, I know for me
a lot of times if there’s a script or a structure or a process that I know
works that’s what has been taught and I know the rap has just deviated. I know
a lot of times what I’ll do is say, listen to this recording grab your script
or your outline or the bullet points of what you were supposed to do.
And what I want you to
do is, as you listen to the call on this on this sheet of paper just highlight
or mark everything that you did that you were supposed to do. And usually after
listening to it, they’ll come back with a page that’s not very marked up or
highlighted, because they just went on their own and they freestyled, and it
didn’t work.
Richard: Yeah, no I think that’s a really valid and I just totally
agree with your point there about setting the expectation upfront is so crucial
to having feedback received in the right way. And making sure that the
salesperson understands that the whole purpose of you getting feedback. It’s
purely with the intention of helping them succeed get better and you know
achieve more better results and that can be so crucial to the to the ongoing
relationship they’re after.
Jason: Yeah and you mentioned it a little bit ago and I’ve seen
this infrequently but when I did it was amazing and those raps always did well.
Not always the top performer but they were consistent, they were professional,
and they saw it as a career and whether it’s a lifelong career in sales or
understanding that everything in sale everything in life is sales related and
that it’s skills that add-on is what you said we’re reps who actually go to
somebody else for feedback. Whether it’s a senior rep on the team or it’s a
manager, assistant manager, a trainer going to somebody and saying, hey I’d
like some feedback or I just got off this call.
I thought it should
have gone well, it didn’t can you give me some feedback and let me know what happened,
and see that I’m the person who’s hiding and shy and doesn’t want the feedback
because they know it sucked and they just don’t want to get in trouble. But the
person that knows you know the only way to get better is to be honest and get
some honest feedback.
Richard: Totally agree with you, couldn’t put it better myself.
Jason: All right, well let’s end on that note then and like I said,
I’m gonna put lots of information from Richard with this contact info, you
could find them all over the place. Richard thank you for being my first guest
on the sales experience podcast and making this now an international global
podcast. I appreciate you and our connection online and chatting and the value
of, basically what the Internet allows when used for good and not evil which is
connecting with other professionals all around and then sharing information and
helping everyone get better. So I appreciate it.
Richard: Yeah no problem Jason, I’ve lived some stuff on this too. So,
it’s been at being really great.
Jason: Well, it’s interesting is that I talked a little bit about
that, but you know obviously that I try to keep the show’s short. But you know
it’s when you’ve gone through a lot of life and you’ve gone through a lot of
things, no matter how old you are because life will just keep coming at you no
matter what. You know you just realize what’s important, what’s not important
then how you really want to help other people. So, I appreciate your time
Richard and everything that you’re doing for the sales community.
Richard: Awesome, thanks so much Jason.
Jason: Appreciate it and for everyone listening, make sure to
subscribe, check out the show to be show notes from Richard. Follow the other
episodes, I’m gonna do me doing more of these bonus of guests to interview
conversation, ones as they come up. But until next time always remember that
everything in life is sales and people remember the experience you gave them.
View all episodes
By Jason Cutter
4.9
3535 ratings
On this very special episode I have Richard Smith from
Refract.ai on with me and we discuss a follow up to the Watching Film Episode (#9).
We discuss why sales people don’t like receiving or
asking for feedback, if sales professionals are actually ‘professional’, and
the best traits for being the type of salesperson who wants to achieve success
long term and understands ‘watching film’ is an important tool.
Enjoy this bonus episode as a part of Mindset Week on The
Sales Experience Podcast
More information on Richard Smith:
Bio: Richard is Co-Founder and Head of Sales for
Conversation Intelligence company Refract. He has a passion for helping sales
people become more successful through coaching, personal development, and
better understanding the science of sales.
You can find Richard:
LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/richard-smith-refract/
Twitter @richard_refract
Article that he mentioned in the episode – https://www.refract.ai/blog/sales-coaching-the-disconnect-epidemic
More information on Refract:
Website – www.refract.ai
Twitter @refract_ai
LinkedIn Company Page – https://www.linkedin.com/company/refract
Episode 9a – Transcript
Jason: Welcome to a special bonus episode of the sales experience podcast. My name is Jason Cutter, I have a fun guest on the show today, his name is Richard Smith. He lives in Newcastle in the UK, half a world apart, half a time, half a world of time zones apart he runs a company called refract. Like I said in Episode one, I’m not very big on interview shows with long intros and setups and then also sales pitches.
So, Richard will give
me a bunch of links, I’m gonna have a lot of stuff in the show notes that you
can find him online on LinkedIn, his website, a lot of great videos and fun
stuff. Richard welcome to the sales experience podcast.
Richard: Jason thanks for having me on. I’m pleased that you also accept
foreigners on your podcast. So, I’m very delighted to be here.
Jason: Well you know what’s great about this is, not only are you the
first guest on the show that because you’re outside the US, it’s now
international. So, it’s the international sales experience podcast which is you
know that may be partially why I wanted you to be on the show I don’t know.
Richard: Well, it’s always good to take things overseas and you know
I think we can now call this officially a global podcast, so.
Jason: Yeah it’s like the second week which is awesome, so, I
appreciate it, all right. So, the sales experience related conversation that I
wanted to have with you is a round feedback. So, it’s mindset week on the
podcast this week and it’s segues perfect into what you and your company do. I
know when we were chatting on LinkedIn, I mentioned to you that I was doing an
episode called watching film, and I could tell you were laughing during the
chat. Tell me what your feedback your thoughts were when you heard that why was
that funny?
Richard: Well, you know I think, if you look at any sort of
profession in the world and you know let’s just take sport. And if you look at
the top performing teams in any line of sport whether that’s solo place or golf
players for example through to an NFL team. And one of the ways that they get
better is by watching back, what they did you know. Oftentimes this is called
kind of playing back the game tape and ultimately it’s how a lot of teams a lot
of individuals become better at their craft.
Because they take the
chance to literally watch back or listen back or observe what they did
previously to look for ways to basically better themselves or even find the
things that worked really well, so they can replicate those. And there’s
no you know there’s, it’s not a coincidence that people at the top of their
game in professional sports are doing this on a daily, if not regular basis
it’s no wonder why coaches and the top coaches play back the game tape as part
of, because of the kind of the foundations of how they can strategize and look
for the you know look for those kind of fine-tuning and areas to improve.
So, I’ve before I
started refract I long wondered why was the same approach to playing back tape
and observing how we did things previously, why was that not being, why was
that staying experience not coming into the world of sales. And I think kind of
book speaks to a bigger problem that we call the sales profession as in we’re
professionals, but many companies and many salespeople don’t actually act like
professionals. And this new concept of actually playing back at the tape of
sales conversations or listening or watching back to how we actually perform in
real life selling situations is as crucial to improving in the world of sales,
as it is to the NFL team preparing for their next game.
So, yeah you are kind
of when you talked about this topic Jason, and I thought you know this is a
really interesting concept. Because watching back the game tape is highly
applicable in many other sectors and disciplines and is slowly working its wind
at the field of sales too.
Jason: Yeah and I think it’s so fascinating when you really dive
into it from a high level and you look at like you said how professional sports
is operated as a profession with coaches and support staff the actual players.
Everyone involved with the goal of winning with improvement, with overcoming
challenges. And you look at anything similar which is like the profession of
being a doctor, a lawyer, maybe a professional actor, you know could be on
stage or could be in movies. Where there’s so much rehearsal, there’s so much
practice, there’s training, there’s requirements there’s scripting.
Let’s say there’s a
process and then you look at sales and sales like you said, it’s called the
sales profession, but how many are really run professionally. And I know you
know a lot of the topics I talk about as well with companies with people and
post is about training. I mean you know in a lot of other professional
organizations there’s training that’s done and it’s structured with sales
doesn’t seem to be that way. And so when you take that even further in watching
film, it just doesn’t seem to happen. Why, you know I have my thoughts on it,
but why do you think that doesn’t happen so much in a sales organization where
they don’t treat it like a profession where feedback is critical?
Richard: I just think that there’s been a mentality in sales for so
long which is kind of you know we all just figure it out as we go along and we
all make loads of mistakes until we find the winning formula. And I think
traditionally that’s kind of got companies by yet, in the modern age where the
competition is so fierce you know, so many products and services are on the
face of it, so similar. It’s becoming increasingly hard for buyers to really
understand why they should choose one product over another, because they all
look and feel the same. They all have the same value propositions, they all
have the same features and functionality and service levels and all the rest of
it.
And so the one thing
that every sales organization should be acknowledging today is that, no longer
is the product going to do the selling for them, it’s actually how their
salespeople sell which is their key differentiator. It’s in how their sales
teams improve the quality of conversations, they’re having with buyers, how
they’re helping buyers make buying decisions who buys, who maybe are confused, who
need education who need their eyes open as to why certain products and services
are valuable. So, I think traditionally Jason this has just been a you know
much like many people in sales they kind of wing it.
And I think that’s how
a lot of organizations have kind of got by but things and times are changing. And
until I think companies are slowly starting to realize that until they truly
look to understand how their sales people are selling, how they can look for
those fine-tuned, fine-tuning moments how they can give feedback to their
salespeople to become to become better, until they start to really do that
they’re going to be left behind. And I think that’s the kind of the critical
stage in life that we’re at today is that, this is what should be front and
center of every single sales organizations mind.
Jason: Well and I think it’s interesting how well a company can do
without a structure, without a plan, without you know feedback, training,
development all of those parts that you mentioned and just what goes into a
sailor’s agent. Whether it’s business-to-business sales which is you know
mostly what your focus or a lot of your clients are, mine is business to
consumer so direct to consumer either way. But it’s interesting how many
companies survive you on the backs of tearing through a lot of reps.
So if you’re a
salesperson listen to this you know if you’ve been in the business for a long
time or any length of time, you’ve either come and gone from one organization
to another or you’ve been in one place and you’ve seen co-workers come and go,
maybe at mass volume. And you know I think that’s how they get by. I think
that’s you know unfortunate for the salespeople who if they were nurtured if
they were given the proper tools could get where they want to get to.
Richard: Yeah, I think it’s a really salient point you make about the
impact of feedback on retention. I did a survey towards the back end of last
year which came off the back of me, reading the results of a report which
identified the disconnect between salespeople and sales management. When it comes
to coaching, the top level summary of the report was that less than 40 percent
of the salespeople interviewed said that, they receive any coaching whatsoever
any feedback from their managers whatsoever.
Yet over 80% of the
managers that were interviewed, all happily said are we coach our salespeople
all the time. So, there’s this massive disconnect between what salespeople are
feel they’re getting from their managers and what their managers are actually
saying. And the survey that I did looked at the impact of what this is causing,
and yes there’s the impact of a lack of coaching and feedback happening in an
organization is poor sales performance reps not meeting quota.
But the biggest problem
that companies that I asked and felt was that the biggest knock-on impact of
this was down to the retention of their sales reps and retention of high
performers. And you know the modern day particularly Millennials coming through,
they wats to know that they’re the job that they’re doing they’re gonna be
getting improved, they’re gonna be getting feedback. And if they don’t then they’re
not gonna hang around for long, and they’re gonna go and look for a company who
was actually going to give them it. And we all know the cost of hiring and
hires that don’t work out, it’s a huge number and for companies to deal with.
So, they need to
understand that the wait retaining, salespeople that reach the wait retaining
their highest performers is by building in a culture of feedback and coaching
into their, in the best sales organization.
Jason: So why, let’s talk about reps for example on the sales side.
Why do you think somebody would not want the feedback?
Richard: Yeah, it’s a good question. So, I think probably look at
this from a couple of different levels what from my experience. I’ve often seen
sales people being reticent to receive feedback because it sounds like a harsh
word. but it’s arrogance, it’s a feeling that they can’t get any better, but you
know I’m an experienced salesperson I’ve been doing this job for years why should
I receive any feedback, I can’t be, I can’t get any better. I think that is
ultimately a poisonous, it’s a poisonous mentality to have an it any sales
organization of feeling that we can’t get better as a sales team that we have
salespeople, who will resist feedback, because they feel like they know it all.
On the flip side people
who are reluctant to receive feedback in is that, they they’re not coachable. They
don’t respond well to constructive feedback or they’re reluctant they accept
feedback but they were looked into try and put that into place, again you have
a risk of a poisonous culture there. Because the time and effort that sales
management are putting into giving feedback to help make their salespeople
better, if that’s not being practice then they’re going to become stagnant the
salespeople are going to continue doing what they’ve always done and you’re
essentially wasting valuable and coaching time which is already at a premium
for sales management.
And I think the
solution to solving that problem actually stems from a much earlier on from the
point of recruitment. I think companies and this is one of the things that we
measure against it refract when we hire salespeople is one of the big
metrics we measure against is coach ability, the sales person’s willingness and
enthusiasm to accept feedback to put it into practice. That’s one of the things
that we measure against, and I think that’s what every company who take this
seriously should be should, also be looking to do at the point of hiring.
Because you know you
get the wrong person on who’s not coachable, who doesn’t respond well to
feedback, if you hire that person it’s very difficult to change that mentality
once you’ve got them on board.
Jason: And that I couldn’t agree more anyone listening to this
who’s listened to the other episodes this week knows episode 7 was open and
willingness. And I know that’s the number one thing I’ve seen, so it’s
interesting that you, you know mention that unprompted and unscripted in
advance as far as what the answer is. Because I know for my side with
everyone I’ve seen come and unfortunately go in the sales career and sales
business is that, they have to be coachable, open and willing it’s funny.
I have a story I tell a
lot of people especially new hires, and sometimes in you know when I’ve done
recruiting, meetings, interviews with potential candidates, you know there’s a
story I tell where I was at an organization, we had a script, we had a process.
The script was very much designed to help new people get success and learn the
process and then evolve away from having to be scripted, right. So, the script
isn’t a tool because we know it works. And I remember it was this guy second
day in training and he walks up to me.
And I wasn’t his
trainer I wasn’t his manager I was a bit higher up, but he basically walks up
to me and says I like your script, I think it could be good but I already know
what I’m doing, so I can’t wait to just throw that aside and do my own
thing, because I know what I’m good at. And he didn’t make it two weeks,
because he wasn’t open and willing and he couldn’t work within what we knew
worked over the phone, he wanted to do it his way and his way didn’t work. And
it’s fascinating, I mean this is the part that you know a lot of people don’t
want to talk about it. It’s kind of harsh but you know if you’re moving from
sales organization, the sales organization and you’re changing and you’re at a
new company at a certain point.
It’s kind of like
relationships right it’s not them it’s you, what is it about that you’re doing
like if your way work you would have been at the original company crushing it
or sitting on a beach somewhere on your big pile of money because you are so
good. And now sometimes it’s organization sometimes you have to change it,
sometimes things happen and it’s not a good fit but you know that openness that
willingness that coach ability like you said is so important. And then setting
it up from the beginning where you know the company says, we’re gonna give you
feedback and then here’s the feedback and it’s gonna be constant.
And you know like I
always say everyone hates hearing themselves, I hate hearing myself. I record
these podcasts and then I basically publish them because I don’t want to listen
to it, I don’t edit I don’t go through it. And so everyone hates hearing
themselves but it’s a necessary evil when it comes to improving, and basically
watching that film.
Richard: Yeah, I think one of my favorite course I’ve heard, this
year was somebody that said, if you hate listening to yourself so much why do
you think your customers or prospects should listen to yourself. I think was a
really salient point that I heard once and it’s it just kind of rings true that
if we hated listening back to ourselves on the phone to such an extent that we
simply refuse to do it, then how does that, what do we think our customers
think about how we sound. And I think ultimately it’s one of those things that
nobody ever really likes the sound of their own voice. But it’s just because
you’re not used to it.
And but I was gonna ask
you a question Jason, you know we talked about like coach ability there and I
talked about the importance of companies’ kind of measuring that to reduce
those problems down the line. I mean what methods have you seen in companies
trying to implement in order to measure, how coachable somebody is in that kind
of interview recruitment process as that’s often I think one of the big
challenges I often see a lot of companies struggling with?
Jason: You know what I’ve found is what works really well, this is
the important tip for any sales leaders or managers listening. So, I found it’s
a two stage approach, the first one is that you’ve got to understand a baseline
of what works for your organization. So, what I’ve done is used third-party
testing behavior, personality attributes and also some skill testing. And then
figured out what the right combination is by testing the current staff of all
the sales reps that I’ve had in my organization, that I have.
All of them not just
the good ones not, okay here’s the five top reps let me test them but all the
reps, and then compare those results literally doing data analytics versus
actual performance results. And draw the line in the sand between the
performers and the non-performers that are meeting expectations exceeding. And
then basically develop what that looks like what that personality makeup, how
open somebody is based on the testing. And then literally every new candidate
comes through the door giving them that testing, so that I can see how they
stack up.
And if they fit the
mold of what, I know can work you know plus or minus some you know percentage
wiggle room. Because people are people and you know it’s those sometimes
they’ll surprise you.
Richard: Yeah, I know I love that approach to testing. I think
testing in an assessment is part of the recruitment process is so valuable. It’s
kind of shows you things which you can’t always see in an interview and is kind
of up brings a bit more science to the equation rather than just judging
somebody based on you know an hour and a half oral interview. One of the things
that we do here to measure the salespersons receptiveness to feedback and coach
ability, it refracts is I do this in an exercise where we will play out a sales
call, or I will act as the prospect. And get the salesperson who act as the
salesperson, will record that call will then play the call back together.
And I’ll give them
feedback and the proof is in the pudding as to whether then we do the call a
second time around and to see did they put into practice the feedback that I’ve
given them or do they just ignore it. And then oftentimes that’s a one of the
telling signs of the sales person’s willingness to accept feedback which can
sometimes be quite critical feedback. But importantly how do they take that
feedback and actually put in a practice. And that’s I found that to be a very
effective way of measuring that upfront.
Jason: That’s brilliant and I can see that that would work
amazingly well. Because that’s literally testing for what you want. You could
throw out everything else in the interview process and just do that. And
obviously I’m gonna put a bunch of links in here you know the program, the
software that you have obviously helps facilitate that which is amazing. But
yeah, that would be if you want openness, willingness, coach ability then
literally does some kind of mock call or go through something give them
feedback see if they improve. And before you even said that you did the second
part which is do a second call to see if they’ve improved, I was just imagining
doing a call playing it back.
And if you’re face to
face with them giving that feedback and watching their reaction and sharing to
do it their defensive or not. And for anybody that’s listening to this that’s a
salesperson you know obviously I’m all mindset focusing on that this week
openness, willingness as Richard says being coachable. You know it’s letting go
of that ego and that survival mechanism and your primitive brain that’s kicking
in that wants to keep you safe. But safes not gonna get you to where you really
want to be in your life and achieving what you could be with your life.
And so if you’re a
salesperson make sure you focus on that, if you feel that defensiveness kick in
when you’re watching film when someone’s giving you feedback when someone’s
playing back you and then pointing out the things you did that didn’t work,
right. It’s something that’s good or bad just didn’t work in that time. Just
notice what your reaction is and what your feeling is at in that moment.
Richard: Yeah, and its funny Jason, but I’ve actually had a new sales
develop and representative start my team today. Hit they’re fresh out of
college this is their first sales role, you know no experience in sales but you
know they showed in the interview process that they had the right mindset, the
right coach ability levels the right ability to accept feedback. And you know
these are the kind of things that you know if you demonstrate that even if you
haven’t got sales experience that can you sure that you’ve got the right
behaviors and mindset to become successful in sales.
You’ve got the right willingness;
the skills will come but part of the battle is just demonstrating that you’ve
got the right will total in. And when I sat down with him today you know I kind
of went through here am I, so I’ve got like a slide that I go through with
every new salesperson who joins the team and I I have almost like ten tips to
success to sales success at refract. And there’s nothing in there that I’d say
is groundbreaking, but one of the, number one I think it’s number five on the
list is embrace feedback and don’t feel bad about it. Because the salespeople
that I’ve seen in my career, he wants success who weren’t successful of the
ones who were defensive, who push back on feedback, who thought that they knew
a better way.
And it’s the battle
that only leads to as you say, it’s stagnation and also just too poor cultural
in the organization. And it’s just getting people to understand that feedback
even though sometimes they might feel negative as long as the expectations from
the organization have been set up front that the whole purpose of giving
feedback is all about want to make you more successful, want to help you make
more Commission. Then embrace it and put into practice and the more successful
salespeople, I’ve worked with are the ones who’ve been able to do that really
well.
Jason: And I think it’s important like you said to set that
expectation upfront and then follow through with it. And it’s interesting you
said that about the new hire, the new person out of college with no experience,
you know I will tell you based on everything I’ve seen and done. Most of the
time I would rather have somebody with some customer facing experience and this
is good if you’re in sales or you’re thinking about getting in sales. Like this
is a really important team for my side is, if you’ve done something with the
public it could be customer service. Maybe you worked in a restaurant maybe you
worked in retail at the mall you’ve done something that involves some people,
so you’re comfortable enough having conversations.
But you’ve never really
done a sales job especially an either phone sales or like a face-to-face
whether it’s you know working in a call center or selling cars or you know
whatever it might be is that, I always prefer that kind of person who is hungry
and open and wants to make a career out of it and learn and read and digest. And
it’s just a blank canvas with no bad habits, versus the person who’s been
selling for 20 years that I know is going to be a battle every day to get them
to work within the framework of the organization’s structure of what works for
sales or what’s compliance or what’s required or the steps.
So, if you’re listening
to this and you’re thinking about getting into sales, you’re not sure about
sales or you’re new and you and you are kind of struggling that this it’s all
about that mindset. And if you’ve been in sales for a long time and I’ve seen
some of these people well which is always awesome is where they’ve been in
sales for 10, 15, 20 years. And they’re super open and they’re hungry and they
want to take all the awesome stuff that they know how to do, and then just aim
those bullets at a new process to make that successful.
Richard: Yeah totally agree Jason, and you know if there’s one thing
I just to kind of piggyback on talking to salespeople out. There is you know
you don’t have to be the most experienced person in the world to be successful
in sales. If you’ve got the willingness to learn the ability to accept embrace
feedback the ability to ask for feedback on a regular basis is quite key as
well and not be afraid to ask for feedback, and then you the skills will come.
And but it’s much harder to teach the skills to somebody who is resistant to
feed back who doesn’t have that mindset.
And again the most
successful salespeople that I’ve worked with in my career have been the ones
that have embraced it. And it’s kind of like this concept of marginal gains of
like, how can I just get like one percent better every single day. And you do
that by even if every day you just asked your manager what’s the one thing that
I could do better today and that would make me 1% better than yesterday, what
could I do differently, how could I optimize this, how could I improve that.
Though if you have that
mentality you will be a success in sales, whether it’s with your current
company or your future companies but you know that’s one thing that I can
almost say and without any shot of it, that’s the route to success.
Jason: Alright so that segues perfect back into you what kind of
started our conversation which was watching film. And which obviously and I
mentioned this in one of the podcast this week as well that you know that dates
me and makes me old. Because obviously it’s not film anymore and we don’t
videotape anything. And so forth, but when we’re talking about the concept of
watching film obviously you have your expertise in what you know works on your
side, because of your technology. As a manager giving feedback and as a rep to
receive the feedback or to get it in a certain format, what do you think works
best?
Like listen to this
recording here you go here’s some things to listen for or look for, you know without
a complete plug of what your software does which is it’s fine I’m gonna put
links in there. But like on the tactical basis on the ground roots level, like
what’s the best way to transfer the feedback from that sales manager to that
sales rep and for the sales rep to absorb it and then put it into practice.
Richard: Yes, there’s different things that we see, people implementing
here and I think ultimately the route that you choose really depends on your
sales team and your general kind of approach to this, and what you find to be
most effective with the reps in your team. I see some customers that we work
with and they really encourage getting reps to actually self, give themselves
feedback before they look to invite their managers. So, they will actually you
know they will literally play back one of their own sales calls and almost go
through the call them self and pinpoint the moments in the call, where they
thought they did things well or where they thought they could do things
differently.
Why that’s so powerful
is actually and this kind of ties into coaching in general is one of the things
in coaching is not just giving the salesperson all the answers is actually
letting them kind of trying to figure it out themselves. And oftentimes we are
very capable of picking out at least one or two things in a call that we feel
we could have done differently just by self-reflecting. Self-reflection being
one of the most powerful things that changes behaviors quickly. It’s kind of
understanding and realizing ourselves what we could have done differently that
would have had a better outcome.
And they will then
share their thoughts with the manager and the manager will then give them will
basically share their thoughts as to how much do they agree with the
salesperson and what they’ve already identified and is there anything additional
that they would add to that to that kind of feedback list. It may be that you
know a lot of the times salespeople don’t know where they could have done,
where they could have done things differently. You know they you might come off
a sales call, the sales calls gone dreadfully wrong. But you can’t really point
to the moment or why the call took went so badly.
And that’s where
inviting the feedback from a manager to listen to that conversation to give
point is to provide suggestions to ask questions about things that we were
doing at certain points of that conversation or certain things that we missed
or didn’t say or the way that we responded getting that feedback from the
manager can just bring that realization very quickly to the sales person. It’s
almost like, you know I had an example of this recently with one of my own team
members, who came off a call last week.
She’s just started
learning to do kind of more later stage discovery conversations in the sales
process and you know we came off the call and she said, I said how did it go
and she said well it was okay and I said okay. So, when you say okay, what do
you mean by that, she’s well I saw the five out of ten said well what do you
think could have made it a seven out of ten. And she said to be honest I really
don’t know it just was one of those where you know I kind of couldn’t really
point to where I you know I know I could have done things differently. I just
don’t know where and I was able to just you know play back those key moments
and kind of make herself realize the things that she could have done
differently.
But I think feedback is
important that it’s delivered in the right way as well. Often times feedback
can come across, can be received or perceived in the wrong way. And feedback
can sometimes be perceived as too negative. And so I think it’s important for
managers to still embrace a coaching conversation and where they’re sat down
with a salesperson and the manager is busy talking through the moments of the
call of where they could have done things differently. Asking questions to help
the salesperson, kind of elaborate or give their input. And just making sure
sometimes that you know feedback when it’s given over in a text format can
sometimes and not, the consumers lack context.
And oftentimes just
having that coaching conversation with the salesperson can just make sure that
it’s all received in the right way with the right meaning behind it.
Jason: Yeah and I know from myself whenever I’ve given feedback
like obviously they’re setting the expectation upfront, in the recruiting, in
the hiring, in the onboarding, in the training process. Like even once they
start working with leads and prospects whether it’s on the phone or face to
face is setting the expectation of the feedback that I give will be with the
purpose of helping them win and doesn’t come my ego. So, as a Sales Leader,
it’s not about me needing to feel good by putting you down or criticizing you,
it’s literally from in my heart. I want you to be successful, I know it could
work, I know what it does take to make it work and be successful to sell
something whatever it is.
Because anytime I’ve
ever sold or managed a team, it’s I’ve always started out by selling it first,
a while to understand it. So, I know what works I know what it takes I know how
to deal with people and so my feedback is really to help them win, it’s not
about an ego right. Like a professional coach who’s giving a player
feedback to help them win. It’s not about I’m the coach you’re not, it’s not
like I’m the parent you’re the kid you listen to me or else and I’m in charge
or else which I know there’s some sales managers out there who are like that.
And that’s probably a
bunch of the industry is that the sales rep who was promoted to manager who has
the ego and feels like they know more than everyone else, versus I just want
you to win. And so I always preface everything with I’m gonna give you some
feedback just so you know my goal is to help you win. It’s not about me it’s
about you, like I could obviously hire more people the key is I want you to be
successful if you’re supposed to. If you’re a rep listen to this obviously make
sure that’s where the feedbacks coming from like you said.
And it could be a
hundred percent harsh like you just totally sucked on that call, it was
terrible here’s all the feedback doesn’t ever do that again. If it’s set up
right you know you could still take that on because most likely you know the
salesperson knows they did that incorrect. And on the feedbacks, I know for me
a lot of times if there’s a script or a structure or a process that I know
works that’s what has been taught and I know the rap has just deviated. I know
a lot of times what I’ll do is say, listen to this recording grab your script
or your outline or the bullet points of what you were supposed to do.
And what I want you to
do is, as you listen to the call on this on this sheet of paper just highlight
or mark everything that you did that you were supposed to do. And usually after
listening to it, they’ll come back with a page that’s not very marked up or
highlighted, because they just went on their own and they freestyled, and it
didn’t work.
Richard: Yeah, no I think that’s a really valid and I just totally
agree with your point there about setting the expectation upfront is so crucial
to having feedback received in the right way. And making sure that the
salesperson understands that the whole purpose of you getting feedback. It’s
purely with the intention of helping them succeed get better and you know
achieve more better results and that can be so crucial to the to the ongoing
relationship they’re after.
Jason: Yeah and you mentioned it a little bit ago and I’ve seen
this infrequently but when I did it was amazing and those raps always did well.
Not always the top performer but they were consistent, they were professional,
and they saw it as a career and whether it’s a lifelong career in sales or
understanding that everything in sale everything in life is sales related and
that it’s skills that add-on is what you said we’re reps who actually go to
somebody else for feedback. Whether it’s a senior rep on the team or it’s a
manager, assistant manager, a trainer going to somebody and saying, hey I’d
like some feedback or I just got off this call.
I thought it should
have gone well, it didn’t can you give me some feedback and let me know what happened,
and see that I’m the person who’s hiding and shy and doesn’t want the feedback
because they know it sucked and they just don’t want to get in trouble. But the
person that knows you know the only way to get better is to be honest and get
some honest feedback.
Richard: Totally agree with you, couldn’t put it better myself.
Jason: All right, well let’s end on that note then and like I said,
I’m gonna put lots of information from Richard with this contact info, you
could find them all over the place. Richard thank you for being my first guest
on the sales experience podcast and making this now an international global
podcast. I appreciate you and our connection online and chatting and the value
of, basically what the Internet allows when used for good and not evil which is
connecting with other professionals all around and then sharing information and
helping everyone get better. So I appreciate it.
Richard: Yeah no problem Jason, I’ve lived some stuff on this too. So,
it’s been at being really great.
Jason: Well, it’s interesting is that I talked a little bit about
that, but you know obviously that I try to keep the show’s short. But you know
it’s when you’ve gone through a lot of life and you’ve gone through a lot of
things, no matter how old you are because life will just keep coming at you no
matter what. You know you just realize what’s important, what’s not important
then how you really want to help other people. So, I appreciate your time
Richard and everything that you’re doing for the sales community.
Richard: Awesome, thanks so much Jason.
Jason: Appreciate it and for everyone listening, make sure to
subscribe, check out the show to be show notes from Richard. Follow the other
episodes, I’m gonna do me doing more of these bonus of guests to interview
conversation, ones as they come up. But until next time always remember that
everything in life is sales and people remember the experience you gave them.