eCommerce Master Plan

eCommerce MasterPlan | 561: WWYD? Ian Leslie on Achieving Hockey Stick Growth in a $10–25M eCommerce Brand

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Ian Leslie is an eCommerce CMO who’s also done stints in SaaS marketing, journalism, and education. Probably best known for his 10 years driving 15x eCommerce revenue growth at B2B eCommerce furniture brand Industry West, where (as regular listeners to this show will know) he was always up to something different with his marketing budget – that usually paid off! 

WWYD is a brand new format for the show – where we ask some of our favourite and most knowledgable eCommerce friends… “What would you do?”. 

In this new WWYD? episode, Ian shares his roadmap for scaling fast—bootstrapped growth, nonstop testing, lean operations, and breaking the beliefs that hold brands back. 

 

Hit PLAY to hear: 

 

  • Ian’s playbook for driving hockey stick growth in a $10–25M ecommerce brand 
  • Why constant testing across the funnel is the real growth engine 
  • How cutting overheads frees up cash to fuel marketing and product 
  • The limiting beliefs holding back ecommerce businesses (and how to break them) 
  • How to balance agency support with in-house agility for faster results 

    •  

    Key timestamps to dive straight in: 

    [05:52] “Pragmatic Growth in SaaS Marketing” 

    [07:52] Always Be Testing and Optimizing 

    [12:08] Reevaluate Post-Retheme Testing Practices 

    [13:03] Overcoming Imposter Syndrome in Testing 

    [18:08] Dynamic Testing: Leadership’s Role 

    [19:19] Listen to Ian’s Top Tips! 

     

    Full episode notes here: https://ecmp.info/561  

    —

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    WEBVTT

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    [SPEAKER_02]: We have brands that go in and spend eighty hundred two hundred thousand dollars on the re-themed and then just let the re-themed sit and don’t test on top of it because well I just paid all this money to the agency to do this amazing work and if I do want to test well really shouldn’t I be having the agency room to test because they know what the aesthetic should be and they know what the front end design is

    00:25.913 –> 00:28.297

    [SPEAKER_01]: It’s the e-commerce master plan podcast.

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    [SPEAKER_01]: Here to help you solve your marketing problems and grow your e-commerce business.

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    [SPEAKER_01]: Cutting through the highly to bring you inspiration and advice from the e-commerce sector and beyond, here’s your host, Chloe Thomas.

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    [SPEAKER_00]: Hello and welcome, it’s great to have you here.

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    [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for hitting play and choosing to listen to one of our inspiring guests.

    00:51.357 –> 00:55.158

    [SPEAKER_00]: In this episode, we’re revealing a brand new type of episode.

    00:55.238 –> 00:59.420

    [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, ten years in and we’ve done a little bit of a of newness.

    01:00.961 –> 01:05.483

    [SPEAKER_00]: Rather than our guests discussing what they have done, they’ll be sharing what they would do.

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    [SPEAKER_00]: So we’re calling these the WWYDs, or the what would you do episodes?

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    [SPEAKER_00]: In this case we’ve got regular guests, possibly our most regular guest Ian Leslie, back on the show, to share what he’d do if he were to take over an e-commerce business in the ten to twenty five million dollar range.

    01:26.076 –> 01:27.397

    [SPEAKER_00]: And we’ll be talking through

    01:28.421 –> 01:33.488

    [SPEAKER_00]: what Ian would do when he took it over in order to achieve a level of hockey stick growth.

    01:33.589 –> 01:35.671

    [SPEAKER_00]: So fast growth within this business.

    01:36.573 –> 01:43.603

    [SPEAKER_00]: I’m hoping that what would you do episodes give us a chance to get deep into this strategic decision making that goes on behind the scenes.

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    [SPEAKER_00]: The real

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    [SPEAKER_00]: Let’s shiny more fundamental stuff that people will do in tackle, whilst also learning some hot news strategies into the mix as well.

    01:53.350 –> 01:57.652

    [SPEAKER_00]: So please do let me know what you think about this new format.

    01:57.992 –> 02:05.097

    [SPEAKER_00]: The easiest option is to leave us a review, just go to ECMP.info forward slash review to find out how to do that.

    02:05.637 –> 02:07.018

    [SPEAKER_00]: Ian and I will be discussing.

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    [SPEAKER_00]: how he would take over and take to a point of success and e-commerce business in the ten to twenty five million dollar turnover range.

    02:15.830 –> 02:23.182

    [SPEAKER_00]: And we will be getting deep into cutting costs and also getting into testing.

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    [SPEAKER_00]: Testing, testing, testing.

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    [SPEAKER_00]: You have to listen to understand all of that.

    02:28.288 –> 02:32.073

    [SPEAKER_00]: This might be a new episode format, but we have not dropped the top tip section.

    02:32.093 –> 02:36.860

    [SPEAKER_00]: They are still there, and Ian’s come up with some absolutely lovely juicy ones for you.

    02:36.900 –> 02:39.023

    [SPEAKER_00]: So make sure you listen to the end to get all of that.

    02:44.012 –> 02:45.992

    [SPEAKER_00]: and now to introduce our special guest.

    02:46.393 –> 02:52.414

    [SPEAKER_00]: Ian Leslie is an e-commerce CMO who’s done since in sass marketing journalism and education.

    02:52.814 –> 03:00.796

    [SPEAKER_00]: Probably best known for his ten years driving fifteen X e-commerce revenue growth at B to B e-commerce furniture brand industry West.

    03:01.176 –> 03:08.717

    [SPEAKER_00]: Where, as regular listeners to this show will know, he was always up to something different with his marketing budget that almost always paid off.

    03:09.077 –> 03:09.778

    [SPEAKER_00]: Hello Ian.

    03:10.178 –> 03:11.418

    [SPEAKER_02]: Hey, so good to be here.

    03:11.458 –> 03:11.758

    [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you.

    03:12.158 –> 03:20.988

    [SPEAKER_00]: Always cool to have you on the show, especially cool to have you here to kick off our brand new revolutionary new content for about the what would you do ever say?

    03:21.108 –> 03:23.250

    [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, you do excellent, so exciting.

    03:23.611 –> 03:28.836

    [SPEAKER_00]: You were last on the show in December, which feels about a million years ago.

    03:28.856 –> 03:31.399

    [SPEAKER_00]: So how has twenty twenty five been going?

    03:31.419 –> 03:31.980

    [SPEAKER_00]: What’s been going on?

    03:32.391 –> 03:35.472

    [SPEAKER_02]: It’s been interesting here in the US and internationally.

    03:35.512 –> 03:42.054

    [SPEAKER_02]: I think all of us in the e-commerce are dealing with an interesting economy and tariffs and such.

    03:42.834 –> 03:46.275

    [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, it’s been an interesting, I guess, now nine months.

    03:46.595 –> 03:55.358

    [SPEAKER_02]: But most of that, the early part of the twenty-five, I was still within the tree list, stepped away over the summer, so no longer within the tree list.

    03:55.478 –> 03:56.578

    [SPEAKER_02]: But I think overall,

    03:57.495 –> 04:00.917

    [SPEAKER_02]: It’s been no different for me than a lot of other people in the space.

    04:00.997 –> 04:03.278

    [SPEAKER_02]: I could just say it’s it’s been interesting.

    04:04.418 –> 04:09.341

    [SPEAKER_02]: I think we’re all kind of trying to figure it out and try to figure out the global marketplace.

    04:09.821 –> 04:11.862

    [SPEAKER_00]: The ever changing global marketplace.

    04:11.902 –> 04:16.024

    [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I do wonder does the global marketplace factor into your what would you do?

    04:16.064 –> 04:17.965

    [SPEAKER_00]: We’ll find out as we continue this chat bit.

    04:18.465 –> 04:20.807

    [SPEAKER_00]: Tell us what your what would you do is?

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    [SPEAKER_02]: What would I do?

    04:22.327 –> 04:23.208

    [SPEAKER_02]: So I’m going to think

    04:24.070 –> 04:29.674

    [SPEAKER_02]: I’ve recently been called a builder multiple times over the past two or three weeks.

    04:29.774 –> 04:32.116

    [SPEAKER_02]: That’s my sweet spot is building things.

    04:32.236 –> 04:41.102

    [SPEAKER_02]: So my, what would you do is I would start with a ten to twenty million hour e-commerce company and would to build it further.

    04:41.442 –> 04:52.470

    [SPEAKER_00]: So we’re talking like a doubling in two years or a bootstrapped growth or what sort of build would you want to do with that business you take over?

    04:52.700 –> 04:53.741

    [SPEAKER_02]: That’s a great question.

    04:53.941 –> 04:59.945

    [SPEAKER_02]: I would definitely think a huge drop growth, but with a high, definitely a high curve.

    05:00.225 –> 05:11.572

    [SPEAKER_02]: I think one of the amazing things about industry was that it was always privately held, so it was always a huge drop growth, but that did not get in the way of us often seeing a hockey stick of growth.

    05:12.409 –> 05:13.710

    [SPEAKER_02]: Is that a reference work in the UK?

    05:13.770 –> 05:14.390

    [SPEAKER_02]: I don’t even know.

    05:14.410 –> 05:15.891

    [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, that does work in the UK.

    05:16.071 –> 05:16.351

    [SPEAKER_00]: It does.

    05:16.532 –> 05:19.153

    [SPEAKER_00]: I think the economists have stolen the hockey sticks.

    05:19.754 –> 05:24.096

    [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, but yeah, so I mean, I think you can walk and shoot them a bit with it with that.

    05:24.476 –> 05:38.125

    [SPEAKER_02]: I often use like the wash and wear metaphor and I wouldn’t want to wash and wear like I would want to continue to grow and continue to build a continue to see a grow and not just not just build a company to then sit by and just let it kind of coast.

    05:38.857 –> 05:39.258

    [SPEAKER_00]: nice.

    05:39.398 –> 05:41.801

    [SPEAKER_00]: So pragmatic growth.

    05:41.961 –> 05:43.903

    [SPEAKER_00]: Do we say in the world of beat strapping?

    05:44.104 –> 05:45.045

    [SPEAKER_00]: Sure, yeah, that’s her.

    05:45.345 –> 05:47.748

    [SPEAKER_00]: But not as dull as the word programmatic.

    05:47.788 –> 05:52.394

    [SPEAKER_00]: When did that come from play as the word, pragmatic suggests?

    05:52.674 –> 05:53.535

    [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that’s interesting.

    05:53.555 –> 05:55.498

    [SPEAKER_02]: I don’t even know if I can really define pragmatic.

    05:55.658 –> 05:57.821

    [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, pragmatic growth sounds fair.

    05:58.181 –> 05:59.583

    [SPEAKER_02]: You mentioned my SaaS experience.

    05:59.663 –> 06:12.458

    [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I’ve been part of companies on the SaaS side that were literally just throwing good money after bad and just get as many eyes on your product as you can, even though they weren’t necessarily going to be, you know,

    06:12.978 –> 06:35.645

    [SPEAKER_02]: Good good customers are good users of the product which made absolutely no sense So I’ve never been like a Just spend spend spend spend spend spend for no get reason kind of marketer But I think like on the other hand I’ve also been like you find a good formula then then why not spend to to the extent that you can like if it’s working if you’re seeing fifteen X like keep pouring money into that

    06:36.012 –> 06:48.081

    [SPEAKER_00]: So you’ve taken over acquired a ten to twenty five million dollar business that you’re going to be bootstrapping, but aiming for hockey stick growth within that.

    06:48.621 –> 06:48.841

    [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

    06:49.302 –> 06:52.944

    [SPEAKER_00]: Hard task you’re setting yourself out, but obviously you’ve done your due diligence.

    06:53.104 –> 06:55.606

    [SPEAKER_00]: So what’s the first thing you do?

    06:55.866 –> 06:58.268

    [SPEAKER_00]: Is it dive into the marketing and work on that?

    06:58.368 –> 07:00.470

    [SPEAKER_00]: Is it work on another area of the business?

    07:00.630 –> 07:03.332

    [SPEAKER_00]: Where’s the area that’s going to get your focus first?

    07:03.938 –> 07:06.740

    [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, yeah, but I think yes on all of that.

    07:06.880 –> 07:12.203

    [SPEAKER_02]: But I think my first task would be like two things I guess all the marketing side.

    07:12.804 –> 07:16.646

    [SPEAKER_02]: If I’m acquiring this, I would be a brand that I think has energy, it looks good.

    07:16.686 –> 07:18.147

    [SPEAKER_02]: It has a spot in the marketplace.

    07:18.227 –> 07:22.250

    [SPEAKER_02]: And like, it would probably wouldn’t be something where I’m just traveling to totally rebuild a website or anything.

    07:22.310 –> 07:25.072

    [SPEAKER_02]: So my first thing would be like test test test test test.

    07:25.132 –> 07:26.152

    [SPEAKER_02]: I definitely didn’t pass.

    07:26.593 –> 07:28.454

    [SPEAKER_02]: I’d say month to team on Siv.

    07:29.054 –> 07:35.377

    [SPEAKER_02]: really kicked myself on what I thought testing was is not what I was doing.

    07:35.697 –> 07:44.921

    [SPEAKER_02]: So like running one or two AB tests is not testing and I think like I’ve learned and some of that has been in some of my contract work over the past month or two.

    07:45.661 –> 07:49.425

    [SPEAKER_02]: is that, like, you should be testing, like, fifteen things on your website at the same time.

    07:49.445 –> 07:52.968

    [SPEAKER_02]: It really not run into any kind of data integrity issue.

    07:53.208 –> 07:54.689

    [SPEAKER_02]: This has to randomize properly.

    07:54.709 –> 07:56.450

    [SPEAKER_02]: I think, like, test tests, test tests.

    07:56.470 –> 08:00.554

    [SPEAKER_02]: There are so many tools out there right now, and I’m going to save mine for the tooltips part.

    08:01.054 –> 08:11.023

    [SPEAKER_02]: But there’s so many tools out there right now where you can be, you know, just testing across the entire funnel and, you know, testing copy testing, images just in colors, testing recommendations.

    08:11.583 –> 08:16.527

    [SPEAKER_02]: So I would say like definitely be testing constantly and really have a good CRO plan in place.

    08:17.147 –> 08:27.435

    [SPEAKER_02]: The other piece I think is just overhead is, you know, what are we spending on everything that is not marketing and sales and product and really diving really deep into that?

    08:27.455 –> 08:38.123

    [SPEAKER_02]: I think there’s a lot of thought boys on the social media who are, you know, how I ran this company with two people and a lot of SaaS and often even I want to look at that and be like,

    08:38.730 –> 08:51.384

    [SPEAKER_02]: really like did you that that I often think like yeah really you can like I don’t think the companies have to be as large in terms of overhead as sometimes you think it needs to be.

    08:51.484 –> 08:59.714

    [SPEAKER_02]: So I think looking at cutting a lot of that cost and reinvesting it into product marketing and sales is all the two places I would start.

    09:00.504 –> 09:01.705

    [SPEAKER_00]: So much to unpack there.

    09:01.825 –> 09:09.870

    [SPEAKER_00]: First off, thank you for being such a professional podcast guest that you’ve already teed up the fact that people need to listen to the end to find out those door recommendations.

    09:09.890 –> 09:10.510

    [SPEAKER_00]: So loving that.

    09:11.071 –> 09:22.798

    [SPEAKER_00]: And then I think your point about the overhead and actually the testing as well is seeing how someone else does it can also burst your limiting beliefs.

    09:23.378 –> 09:28.163

    [SPEAKER_00]: You know, like on the testing front, you thought, like, we’re running to at the time, that’s fine.

    09:28.483 –> 09:32.047

    [SPEAKER_00]: You get to go and do some contracting work and peek behind someone else’s curtain all of a sudden.

    09:32.067 –> 09:37.552

    [SPEAKER_00]: It’s like, oh, man, we could have been doing fifteen if we’d have deployed this and this and this and then on the overhead stuff.

    09:38.073 –> 09:44.679

    [SPEAKER_00]: It’s like, yeah, those guys who were, you know, as you said, were two people all SaaS growing to crazy numbers.

    09:45.380 –> 09:49.503

    [SPEAKER_00]: They’re an outlier, but there’s still a lot we can all learn from.

    09:49.523 –> 09:51.925

    [SPEAKER_00]: And I think it does attack those limiting beliefs again.

    09:51.945 –> 09:53.626

    [SPEAKER_00]: Well, of course, I have to have someone doing that.

    09:54.146 –> 09:54.807

    [SPEAKER_00]: But do you?

    09:55.307 –> 10:01.271

    [SPEAKER_00]: Is that five percent of the job that you can’t automate worth having someone doing a hundred percent of the job?

    10:01.992 –> 10:07.936

    [SPEAKER_00]: So would it mainly be head count that was the target for your overhead cutting or would it be other things as well?

    10:07.956 –> 10:12.499

    [SPEAKER_00]: Like, would you switch to a three-piece out instead of in-house fulfilment or anything like that?

    10:12.883 –> 10:17.226

    [SPEAKER_02]: But yes, again, obviously, I think it depends on what the vertical is.

    10:18.007 –> 10:20.929

    [SPEAKER_02]: So without getting into too much, yes, specifics.

    10:21.469 –> 10:25.332

    [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think there’s a lot of efficiency in three PL as opposed to in-house.

    10:25.372 –> 10:27.613

    [SPEAKER_02]: I think it depends at what revenue band you’re at.

    10:28.094 –> 10:33.898

    [SPEAKER_02]: But I think in that as you’re growing in that mid-twenties, it makes sense to be at a three PL.

    10:34.498 –> 10:37.359

    [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I think it just depends, especially with AI tools.

    10:37.739 –> 10:47.263

    [SPEAKER_02]: And like, I don’t want to get too far down the path of like, and I don’t want people coming after me, like, graphic designers, so you’re going to lose jobs and copy retro, show using jobs.

    10:47.363 –> 10:51.125

    [SPEAKER_02]: But like, do we need as many in-house creative as we have?

    10:51.385 –> 10:53.626

    [SPEAKER_02]: Do we need as many in the warehouse as we have?

    10:53.686 –> 10:56.507

    [SPEAKER_02]: Do we need all the systems to support

    10:57.750 –> 10:58.370

    [SPEAKER_02]: or knows.

    10:58.490 –> 11:06.494

    [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, there’s just, I feel like there is a sect of e-commerce that’s still trying to build Fortune five hundred model companies.

    11:07.115 –> 11:10.076

    [SPEAKER_02]: That’s just not going to be sustainable in this day and age.

    11:10.536 –> 11:13.938

    [SPEAKER_02]: But there’s as much as it costs to get to your customer with as much as it costs.

    11:14.158 –> 11:15.879

    [SPEAKER_02]: We’re going to hit with import costs.

    11:16.579 –> 11:19.401

    [SPEAKER_02]: You have to find affordability somewhere.

    11:19.441 –> 11:21.702

    [SPEAKER_02]: And I think a lot of that’s going to be in your operations.

    11:22.262 –> 11:23.163

    [SPEAKER_02]: I’ll be other piece.

    11:23.784 –> 11:25.445

    [SPEAKER_02]: You said it amazingly well just now.

    11:26.206 –> 11:27.067

    [SPEAKER_02]: How did you phrase that?

    11:27.307 –> 11:44.102

    [SPEAKER_00]: The limiting belief is one of those kind of self-development theories where we go, well, I can’t possibly be on a stage or I can’t possibly do that myself or I can’t and I just think sometimes it also comes into how you structure a business like, well, of course I need an accounts team.

    11:44.803 –> 11:49.005

    [SPEAKER_00]: Of course, we have to invoice after we’ve done all the work.

    11:49.325 –> 11:55.568

    [SPEAKER_00]: And sometimes you just need someone to go to show you how things are done elsewhere to help you shift those curtains.

    11:55.948 –> 12:08.174

    [SPEAKER_00]: And I often think when you’re taking over a business or you’re entering a business as an employee, even one of your roles in the first couple of months for the benefit of that business is to break the limiting beliefs.

    12:08.594 –> 12:25.543

    [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so my takeaway recently on the AV testing side and as it pertains to those limiting beliefs is that and again, I don’t know if I’m going to put some people off here because I have a lot of good friends in the development space and the agency space and I think they’re amazing people and I think they do amazing work, but I think

    12:26.283 –> 12:44.826

    [SPEAKER_02]: We have brands that go in and spend eighty hundred two hundred thousand dollars on the re-themed and then just let the re-themed sit and don’t test on top of it because well I just paid all this money to the agency to do this amazing work and if I do want to test well really shouldn’t I be having the agency room to test because

    12:45.742 –> 13:09.653

    [SPEAKER_02]: they know what the aesthetic should be and they know what the front end design is and oh this font it doesn’t entirely match so I shouldn’t do it in the colors in the pixel perfection and I think that’s where I was before this most recent spell of well I’m not equipped to do the testing because I paid an agency but now Shopify and frankly like John GPT have made it so easy to

    13:10.433 –> 13:15.376

    [SPEAKER_02]: change CSS to do all these things that it’s like really will want why can’t I do it?

    13:15.536 –> 13:39.750

    [SPEAKER_02]: I’ve always had imposter syndrome, my entire career, but I’ve never had that limiting belief as you’re saying like I always would be wanting to get in the weeds and do the work and really test and do, but when I came to actual AB testing like I was really just at the tip of the iceberg and I think a lot of that is as wise because like we work with these agencies that are amazing like don’t get me wrong, but like

    13:40.419 –> 13:44.582

    [SPEAKER_02]: They’re not doing the day testing that we should be doing.

    13:44.602 –> 13:48.884

    [SPEAKER_02]: And like I said, I think there’s so many opportunities now to just play with things.

    13:48.944 –> 13:54.767

    [SPEAKER_02]: And if you can’t figure it out, just I started a website for my like, I’m a builder, like a half year.

    13:54.827 –> 13:57.849

    [SPEAKER_02]: And I’ve had this little spell in between full-time jobs.

    13:57.869 –> 13:59.730

    [SPEAKER_02]: It’s how I like, I was so bored.

    13:59.790 –> 14:01.091

    [SPEAKER_02]: I made my wife start a company.

    14:02.832 –> 14:04.053

    [SPEAKER_02]: So my life’s a thrifter.

    14:05.028 –> 14:34.435

    [SPEAKER_02]: an amazing thrifter maybe that’s our next maybe that might be through the tip later to another tip for our wife’s the thrifter and she finds these amazing things and I was like we need to start our website we need to sell more across the country with what you thrift as opposed like the local marketplaces and so I built a Shopify safer and then there were things I just just you wanted me to change on the site and I didn’t know how to do it and I literally just like asked AI at a game of the CSS and I put it in and it was like super easy and I was so proud of myself

    14:35.095 –> 14:52.225

    [SPEAKER_02]: While I was doing that there were changes I would have made to other websites I’ve worked on in the past that I just didn’t because I was like I don’t know I was scared to because it was Managed by people smarter than me, but I think like yeah, I don’t have that limiting belief anymore.

    14:52.245 –> 14:53.186

    [SPEAKER_02]: I don’t think

    14:53.690 –> 14:57.551

    [SPEAKER_00]: So is fixing that in this new business that you’re going to take on?

    14:58.391 –> 15:03.452

    [SPEAKER_00]: Is embracing this full-on testing scenario?

    15:04.112 –> 15:07.133

    [SPEAKER_00]: Is it about the team’s mentality?

    15:07.333 –> 15:10.273

    [SPEAKER_00]: Is it about Ian getting in there and running a load of tests?

    15:10.553 –> 15:19.775

    [SPEAKER_00]: Is it about building stronger less siloed relationships with the agencies and the other teams that are the outsourced people who are working on it?

    15:20.155 –> 15:25.358

    [SPEAKER_00]: Would you tackle it top down or kind of boss him up culture shift?

    15:25.378 –> 15:27.379

    [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think that’s great a great question.

    15:27.419 –> 15:31.861

    [SPEAKER_02]: Like because I do think, I mean, you’re in this twenty thirty forty million dollar range.

    15:31.881 –> 15:33.442

    [SPEAKER_02]: Like you still need agencies, right?

    15:33.482 –> 15:35.042

    [SPEAKER_02]: Like my Shopify site crashes.

    15:35.103 –> 15:39.064

    [SPEAKER_02]: I need someone like server side, whatever it may be like I need help.

    15:39.585 –> 15:43.627

    [SPEAKER_02]: So it’s not that the agencies don’t have a role anymore, but I think it has to be

    15:44.467 –> 15:53.491

    [SPEAKER_02]: Interwoven between like we’re not gonna wait on agency sprints and the internal team is going to test and like we’re going to have a good ecosystem of communication there.

    15:53.511 –> 16:04.537

    [SPEAKER_02]: I mean if I’m acquiring a brand and like I should probably be the one doing all the testing if I’m doing a lot of other things but like yeah, and I think it needs to be a culture of testing and I think that goes

    16:05.718 –> 16:06.900

    [SPEAKER_02]: across the board, right?

    16:06.980 –> 16:15.289

    [SPEAKER_02]: Like, it needs to be a culture of testing in finance and needs to be a culture of testing in email marketing and needs to be a culture of testing in product.

    16:15.850 –> 16:22.198

    [SPEAKER_02]: So I’m going to think that’s both building an ecosystem and a culture of testing in house, but then how do you take that?

    16:22.798 –> 16:42.861

    [SPEAKER_02]: to your agency partners and say like okay I’m not afraid to try XYZ and I feel like I’ve always been pretty good about that I think people who’ve worked with me would say like on media buys like I’d pilot always piloting things, always trying different things but I think for whatever reason again on like the front end web piece was not good at that

    16:43.256 –> 16:53.763

    [SPEAKER_00]: It is so much easier, I think, to test when you’re doing media buys, than it is to test on the website, because it’s a lot easier to work out what to test.

    16:54.244 –> 16:58.046

    [SPEAKER_00]: It’s very easy to create a culture of, it’s not very easy to create a culture of testing.

    16:58.086 –> 17:02.950

    [SPEAKER_00]: It’s relatively easy to create a culture of testing in a business and to encourage everybody to be doing testing.

    17:02.990 –> 17:11.316

    [SPEAKER_00]: What’s harder is to get a culture of testing and testing behavior happening that leads to good results.

    17:11.896 –> 17:17.558

    [SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, people working out of the twenty ideas I’ve got, which are actually worth testing.

    17:17.858 –> 17:18.098

    [SPEAKER_02]: Sure.

    17:18.458 –> 17:23.980

    [SPEAKER_00]: You know, like changing a button color probably not changing your Facebook graphics.

    17:24.741 –> 17:30.363

    [SPEAKER_00]: Probably doing some customer research to lead into better email content, probably worth doing.

    17:31.503 –> 17:44.657

    [SPEAKER_00]: What I’m trying to say is I think that has to be an element of Ian as the person who’s taken over the business, being involved in helping create the testing or agreeing the testing activity and monitoring the results as that builds probably.

    17:44.978 –> 17:45.218

    [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

    17:45.558 –> 17:45.839

    [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.

    17:45.879 –> 17:46.299

    [SPEAKER_02]: I’ll do it.

    17:46.459 –> 17:46.780

    [SPEAKER_02]: You’re right.

    17:48.292 –> 17:49.332

    [SPEAKER_02]: No, I think you’re right.

    17:49.572 –> 17:56.314

    [SPEAKER_02]: I don’t want to embarrass ourselves like how old we are, but I think we were relative at the same age and we came up around several to the same time as a marketer.

    17:56.334 –> 18:01.895

    [SPEAKER_02]: And I think we all got duped by that narrative of Facebook, tested the color of its blue.

    18:02.855 –> 18:03.895

    [SPEAKER_02]: And that was AB tests.

    18:03.975 –> 18:05.275

    [SPEAKER_02]: And so that’s what we’re all going with.

    18:05.335 –> 18:06.976

    [SPEAKER_02]: Like, I’m going to try a red check out button.

    18:07.016 –> 18:08.456

    [SPEAKER_02]: And I’m going to try a black check out button.

    18:08.496 –> 18:09.776

    [SPEAKER_02]: And let’s see which ones wins.

    18:09.836 –> 18:16.398

    [SPEAKER_02]: And like, yeah, but that’s the most baseline under baseline of AB testing.

    18:16.438 –> 18:17.298

    [SPEAKER_02]: So I mean, I think like

    18:17.778 –> 18:20.379

    [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think someone needs to put to your point.

    18:20.439 –> 18:29.503

    [SPEAKER_02]: Like the person at the top needs to be the one driving how creative or how out of the box or how dynamic do we want to be in our testing?

    18:29.543 –> 18:37.546

    [SPEAKER_02]: Do we want to be at a surface level as I’m going to test a red versus green button or do I want to be as you know be testing

    18:38.595 –> 19:01.075

    [SPEAKER_02]: Free shipping to what level do we need to get to offer free shipping what upsells and offer what forgiveness we want offer where things placed on the page do we want to get rid of the entire home page you haven’t just land on nothing but a product grid I mean there’s a lot of conversation out there about how like how PDP’s are dying but yes to your point yeah that needs to come from the top down of how dynamic do we want to be in testing across the board

    19:02.200 –> 19:06.942

    [SPEAKER_01]: Ecommerce Masterplan is supporting by some of the greatest companies in the Ecommerce sector.

    19:07.082 –> 19:08.483

    [SPEAKER_01]: Here’s a reminder of who they are.

    19:19.407 –> 19:24.209

    [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, I love this section because me and our listeners some really quick ideas for taking our business to the next level.

    19:24.229 –> 19:30.572

    [SPEAKER_00]: So Ian, are you ready to spill the tips you’ve been even teasing us with all episode?

    19:30.692 –> 19:32.392

    [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, the book top tip.

    19:32.492 –> 19:38.875

    [SPEAKER_00]: If everyone listening to this podcast agreed to take Friday off and read a book to make their business better, which book would you recommend?

    19:39.242 –> 19:43.447

    [SPEAKER_02]: I’ve been a thing for a fifth or sixth time doing a podcast with you, so I don’t remember all the books.

    19:45.009 –> 19:47.932

    [SPEAKER_02]: But I don’t think I recommend it in a reasonable hospitality.

    19:48.272 –> 19:50.315

    [SPEAKER_02]: So I’ve just a really good book just.

    19:51.217 –> 20:18.192

    [SPEAKER_02]: especially now like we’re all watching the bear and everything just you know what it takes to be hospitable this is like the book is say you know in a restaurant it’s about a chef and just what he did you know to create hospitality his restaurant as he looked to get you know visual and stars etc but yeah just unreasonable hospitality what it takes you know in terms of customer service how to deal with your consumers well so yeah good book for for people in sales marketing really anyone who just wants to make people happy

    20:18.701 –> 20:19.021

    [SPEAKER_00]: Nice.

    20:19.141 –> 20:22.243

    [SPEAKER_00]: I’ve not heard of that one, and I still haven’t watched the bear either.

    20:22.343 –> 20:25.524

    [SPEAKER_00]: So that’s a couple of big todays for me.

    20:26.104 –> 20:31.747

    [SPEAKER_00]: Traffic top tip, which marketing method do you either prize above all others or think doesn’t get the press it deserves?

    20:32.207 –> 20:34.368

    [SPEAKER_02]: I’ll be honest, this one just stumped me.

    20:34.528 –> 20:35.748

    [SPEAKER_02]: I feel like I’ve said them all.

    20:36.268 –> 20:45.692

    [SPEAKER_02]: Again, I don’t recall if I did this set this one last time, but we were doing something called an issue S where we were taking out billboards on trucks in Manhattan.

    20:46.092 –> 20:46.893

    [SPEAKER_02]: So there’s a company

    20:47.473 –> 20:59.003

    [SPEAKER_02]: and it cashed and they misgaped soon right now, but there’s a company that work with the truck companies throughout the tri-state area, particularly in the metro area in New York, and they just rent the billboard space out on the side of the truck.

    20:59.063 –> 21:02.787

    [SPEAKER_02]: So you have a truck in Manhattan that’s delivering or nose-wise delivering.

    21:02.827 –> 21:03.908

    [SPEAKER_02]: It’s not delivering or furniture.

    21:03.928 –> 21:11.655

    [SPEAKER_02]: It could be delivering a crow to you, so you could be delivering anything, but people think it’s your truck because it’s skinned with your brand on it, and they’ve done a lot of cool things.

    21:11.755 –> 21:12.635

    [SPEAKER_02]: And so it was really cool.

    21:12.675 –> 21:14.277

    [SPEAKER_02]: I’m just cool to see the truck

    21:14.897 –> 21:39.757

    [SPEAKER_02]: around New York and there’s also some other aspects where you can like IP target people within like a hundred foot range of the truck or something but yeah so I would say yeah just I think and we did again like piloting anything we did digital billboards in Times Square and I think people are like billboards or did you know that sort of thing but I mean I think it’s everything all becomes new again and I think there’s cool things out there to do

    21:40.204 –> 21:41.385

    [SPEAKER_00]: us so much so.

    21:41.565 –> 21:45.709

    [SPEAKER_00]: And I I love that you have told us the trucks in Manhattan one before, but it’s so good.

    21:45.749 –> 21:53.175

    [SPEAKER_00]: It deserves retelling because I don’t apologize because one of my favorite things about it is the social pre-felliment.

    21:53.395 –> 22:03.343

    [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, you know, it creates a admittedly fake, but it does create an element of, oh, well, if they’re delivering a lot in Manhattan, then they must be for Manhattan people.

    22:03.383 –> 22:05.065

    [SPEAKER_00]: And I’m a Manhattan person.

    22:05.105 –> 22:05.765

    [SPEAKER_00]: So I need.

    22:06.026 –> 22:06.246

    [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

    22:06.506 –> 22:07.847

    [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, their products, it’s clever.

    22:07.927 –> 22:12.149

    [SPEAKER_00]: And you could replicate it in any city, village, however small.

    22:12.889 –> 22:17.191

    [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe not as easily as the truck company who already selling the spaces, but you could do it anywhere.

    22:17.552 –> 22:17.892

    [SPEAKER_00]: Love it.

    22:17.952 –> 22:18.192

    [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

    22:18.632 –> 22:22.094

    [SPEAKER_00]: And let’s face it, not enough e-commerce businesses do stuff offline.

    22:22.114 –> 22:22.874

    [SPEAKER_02]: That’s true.

    22:23.154 –> 22:24.095

    [SPEAKER_00]: We should do more of that.

    22:24.255 –> 22:25.476

    [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, tool, top tip.

    22:25.636 –> 22:33.840

    [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe a collaboration tool, a social media plugin, a phone app or just a way of working, is there a cool little tool you use that makes you and your team more efficient from day to day?

    22:34.260 –> 22:35.941

    [SPEAKER_02]: Have you heard of this thing called AI yet?

    22:36.582 –> 22:37.743

    [SPEAKER_00]: You don’t you mean A one.

    22:37.763 –> 22:44.128

    [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, but yeah, I said so from maybe testing front.

    22:44.589 –> 22:49.553

    [SPEAKER_02]: I’ve used visually visually BIS UALY.

    22:50.093 –> 22:52.355

    [SPEAKER_02]: So it’s a super cool AB testing tool.

    22:52.675 –> 22:55.177

    [SPEAKER_02]: It plugs like literally right in the Shopify.

    22:55.197 –> 22:57.739

    [SPEAKER_02]: It grabs your entire theme in like thirty seconds.

    22:58.280 –> 23:01.422

    [SPEAKER_02]: Is this really cool tool if you’re looking at AB testing?

    23:01.542 –> 23:03.504

    [SPEAKER_02]: So I would it’s super efficient.

    23:04.084 –> 23:05.546

    [SPEAKER_02]: You don’t need to work with devs on it.

    23:05.767 –> 23:06.868

    [SPEAKER_02]: So I would recommend that.

    23:06.948 –> 23:15.119

    [SPEAKER_02]: But all joking aside on the AI piece, I still think like most marketers are really just like skinning iceberg or tip of iceberg.

    23:15.179 –> 23:21.948

    [SPEAKER_02]: And however you want to say, it’s getting the surface with how we’re using AI just in order to do the job and like I mentioned, I mean,

    23:22.807 –> 23:34.549

    [SPEAKER_02]: just generating CSS or your website like he don’t like where button looks like, you know, this is whatever, like, S, shut GPT and it’ll like tell you what theme you’re running and it’ll, I mean, obviously if we’re running custom themes.

    23:35.029 –> 23:41.811

    [SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, I mean, there’s a lot of ways to do that and I think just just really taking advantage of AI and I think is really interesting.

    23:41.971 –> 23:47.892

    [SPEAKER_02]: So yes, AI keeps me much more efficient, chat GPT and put on the AB testing I would recommend visually.

    23:48.353 –> 23:48.733

    [SPEAKER_00]: Nice.

    23:49.093 –> 23:51.234

    [SPEAKER_00]: So, last one, the carbon top tip.

    23:51.594 –> 23:55.176

    [SPEAKER_00]: What’s your favorite way to reduce the carbon footprint of an e-commerce store?

    23:55.416 –> 24:11.423

    [SPEAKER_02]: I know I’ve given this answer before, and I really don’t have any, would the past ten years being in furniture, it’s really difficult to talk about how many carbon, you know, a lot of ways we’ve saved in terms of carbon, and we definitely tried to be a fish in terms of packaging and tried to be a fish in just in how limiting waste.

    24:11.543 –> 24:17.326

    [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I think the biggest piece for furniture companies is to the extent that you can, I don’t, don’t have people return things.

    24:18.071 –> 24:19.352

    [SPEAKER_02]: It’s not cost-efficient for them.

    24:19.412 –> 24:21.534

    [SPEAKER_02]: It’s not a cost-efficient for you most of the time.

    24:21.574 –> 24:23.215

    [SPEAKER_02]: It’s just like, let them have it.

    24:23.895 –> 24:33.582

    [SPEAKER_02]: If it’s slightly damaged, like, let them have it and have them resell it and keep it, you know, but without, you know, the extra packaging without the extra gas and whatever to get it back to the warehouse.

    24:34.003 –> 24:35.204

    [SPEAKER_02]: So I know that’s something we did.

    24:35.224 –> 24:46.192

    [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, I would say just to the extent, if you can afford to eat and return, eat the return and don’t have the extra fuel in the air from carbon in the air from that return,

    24:46.590 –> 24:52.036

    [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it’s one of those which is becoming increasingly debated even in areas like fashion.

    24:52.217 –> 24:54.319

    [SPEAKER_00]: Should we actually ask for that to be returned?

    24:55.000 –> 24:56.582

    [SPEAKER_00]: When you get into the numbers of it,

    24:57.855 –> 25:02.258

    [SPEAKER_00]: It has surprising results when you start considering should we actually ask for that to be sent back?

    25:02.438 –> 25:03.299

    [SPEAKER_00]: Is it worth it?

    25:04.019 –> 25:06.781

    [SPEAKER_00]: On both the finance side and the carbon side as well.

    25:06.881 –> 25:12.545

    [SPEAKER_00]: So a weird one, a counter-intuitive one because I think we always might want the product back.

    25:12.625 –> 25:12.985

    [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

    25:13.285 –> 25:14.646

    [SPEAKER_00]: But it can be hugely powerful.

    25:14.806 –> 25:17.108

    [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, then there’s a customer royalty aspect as well.

    25:17.299 –> 25:18.321

    [SPEAKER_00]: Well, yeah, exactly.

    25:18.401 –> 25:23.389

    [SPEAKER_00]: It’s like most customers are not going to be annoyed by you telling them they don’t have to trace to the post office.

    25:23.569 –> 25:23.889

    [SPEAKER_02]: Right.

    25:24.030 –> 25:24.591

    [SPEAKER_02]: Exactly.

    25:24.771 –> 25:25.071

    [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

    25:25.292 –> 25:25.512

    [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

    25:25.532 –> 25:25.792

    [SPEAKER_02]: Totally.

    25:25.893 –> 25:26.233

    [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

    25:26.293 –> 25:32.203

    [SPEAKER_00]: So Ian, before we say goodbye, kid, do you please let the listeners know where they can get in touch if they’ve got questions or want to chat?

    25:32.574 –> 25:34.215

    [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I am on LinkedIn.

    25:34.375 –> 25:35.995

    [SPEAKER_02]: There’s a lot of Ian Leslie’s on LinkedIn.

    25:36.055 –> 25:36.656

    [SPEAKER_02]: It’s really weird.

    25:36.836 –> 25:38.556

    [SPEAKER_02]: But I’m the one who’s CMO.

    25:39.016 –> 25:40.437

    [SPEAKER_02]: There are most of our CMOs.

    25:40.457 –> 25:42.318

    [SPEAKER_02]: So if you’re going to find a LinkedIn, I’ll be there.

    25:42.438 –> 25:44.759

    [SPEAKER_02]: I’m on Twitter at IR Leslie.

    25:45.399 –> 25:47.260

    [SPEAKER_02]: That’s pretty much where to find me right now.

    25:47.580 –> 25:50.061

    [SPEAKER_00]: And I know you’re doing contracting at the moment.

    25:50.381 –> 25:52.021

    [SPEAKER_00]: Are you all saying looking for jobs?

    25:52.041 –> 25:53.142

    [SPEAKER_00]: Do you want to do a pitch for that?

    25:53.570 –> 25:56.511

    [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, do some contracting booth in the conversion higher ed right now.

    25:56.531 –> 26:01.192

    [SPEAKER_02]: Like I said, I’ve been told recently a lot, often that I am a builder.

    26:01.352 –> 26:05.133

    [SPEAKER_02]: So if anyone needs help building something, I’m all ears.

    26:05.513 –> 26:05.853

    [SPEAKER_00]: Awesome.

    26:05.933 –> 26:06.893

    [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much, Ian.

    26:06.933 –> 26:08.434

    [SPEAKER_00]: It’s always a pleasure to catch up with you.

    26:08.534 –> 26:09.854

    [SPEAKER_00]: And thank you for being our first.

    26:10.154 –> 26:11.374

    [SPEAKER_00]: What would you do, Ginny Pegg?

    26:11.474 –> 26:12.355

    [SPEAKER_00]: You’ve been a star.

    26:12.595 –> 26:13.315

    [SPEAKER_02]: Thanks, Oding.

    26:13.375 –> 26:13.675

    [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you.

    26:19.283 –> 26:21.504

    [SPEAKER_00]: always a pleasure to catch up with Ian.

    26:21.584 –> 26:34.151

    [SPEAKER_00]: And I loved his simplicity, but complexity, there we say, of his approach to taking over a ten to twenty five million dollar business, looked approaching two ways first off.

    26:34.811 –> 26:39.193

    [SPEAKER_00]: Overhead, what that isn’t marketing sales or product can we cut coston?

    26:39.613 –> 26:49.118

    [SPEAKER_00]: Where can we cut the costs to create more cash that we can spend in our bootstrapping mindset on our marketing or sales and our products to improve the performance of the overall business?

    26:49.718 –> 26:52.099

    [SPEAKER_00]: And then to test, test, test, test, test.

    26:52.559 –> 26:56.621

    [SPEAKER_00]: Obviously a lot of CROs are marketing, lots of messages, so on and so forth.

    26:56.721 –> 27:00.283

    [SPEAKER_00]: And it’s a very simple plan, but it’s also

    27:01.463 –> 27:07.745

    [SPEAKER_00]: I think the only plan you could follow to get that hockey stick growth whilst you’re bootstrapping.

    27:08.225 –> 27:14.387

    [SPEAKER_00]: But also, it’s so easy to take over a business, arrogantly thinking you know what is needed.

    27:14.447 –> 27:19.069

    [SPEAKER_00]: But if you’re not doing the testing, you’re not actually learning what’s needed to take the next step growth.

    27:19.569 –> 27:25.131

    [SPEAKER_00]: And really interesting to hear all his tips and tricks around testing and the things he’s been learning of late and over time.

    27:25.551 –> 27:27.712

    [SPEAKER_00]: so very cool to have Ian on the show.

    27:28.092 –> 27:46.516

    [SPEAKER_00]: You can get your hands on the notes from this episode including those top tips and the links to what we mentioned by heading over to ecommercemasterplan.com or you can use our direct episode short links just put ECMP.info for such the number of this episode into the URL bar and you’ll be redirected straight to the right episode page.

    27:46.936 –> 27:54.018

    [SPEAKER_00]: When you get to the website you can also add yourself to our email list so you don’t miss out on any of the other things I share to help you improve your business.

    27:55.058 –> 27:58.882

    [SPEAKER_00]: If you liked this episode, then couple of recommendations for you today.

    27:59.022 –> 28:11.473

    [SPEAKER_00]: First off, check out Episode five hundred and twenty-one, which is our previous episode with Ian, where we’re chatting about a ninety percent B to B e-commerce revenue jump that Ian has team had achieved.

    28:11.614 –> 28:14.296

    [SPEAKER_00]: Super cool episode loads of marketing tips in that one.

    28:15.097 –> 28:15.737

    [SPEAKER_00]: Secondly,

    28:16.598 –> 28:25.504

    [SPEAKER_00]: Episode five, seven, where I got to chat with Sanya and Janice about building better stronger relationships with your agency.

    28:26.005 –> 28:34.431

    [SPEAKER_00]: I’m adding it into this one because to me, it resonates with that silo and culture of testing piece that I was talking to Ian about.

    28:34.451 –> 28:36.833

    [SPEAKER_00]: So if you want more on that specifically,

    28:37.513 –> 28:46.075

    [SPEAKER_00]: and building those testing thriving relationships with in particular your agency, but also other marketing agencies, outsource people, et cetera, et cetera.

    28:46.095 –> 28:49.496

    [SPEAKER_00]: Then go and have a listen to episode five, five, seven as well.

    28:50.256 –> 28:51.817

    [SPEAKER_00]: It’s just a few episodes ago.

    28:51.837 –> 28:55.778

    [SPEAKER_00]: And then if you want to catch up with all our

    28:56.498 –> 28:58.098

    [SPEAKER_00]: What would you do, episodes?

    28:58.338 –> 29:00.079

    [SPEAKER_00]: So the admittedly, this is the first one.

    29:00.719 –> 29:04.680

    [SPEAKER_00]: But we have added a few similarly themed episodes to the page already.

    29:05.120 –> 29:11.982

    [SPEAKER_00]: So if you go to the website via ECMP.info, or s-w-w-y-d, what would you do?

    29:12.462 –> 29:19.343

    [SPEAKER_00]: Then you will be able to access a page where we’ll be combining all our, what would you do episodes?

    29:19.943 –> 29:25.925

    [SPEAKER_00]: And also, as I said, get your hands on a couple, which fit the format, but weren’t technically W-w-y-d’s.

    29:26.985 –> 29:27.266

    [SPEAKER_00]: Right.

    29:27.526 –> 29:29.528

    [SPEAKER_00]: If that’s not confusing enough, let’s wrap it up.

    29:29.808 –> 29:35.172

    [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for tuning in to this and every episode that you do of the Ecommerce Master Plan podcast.

    29:35.532 –> 29:45.300

    [SPEAKER_00]: I bring you a new interview every week because I want to inspire and help Ecommerce business owners like you to succeed and thrive with your businesses, including progressing along that path to net zero.

    29:45.781 –> 29:50.384

    [SPEAKER_00]: So if you know someone this show can help, please tell them to listen to the Ecommerce Master Plan podcast.

    29:50.865 –> 29:53.467

    [SPEAKER_00]: Have a great week and don’t forget to keep optimizing.

    29:56.623 –> 29:59.926

    [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for listening to the e-commerce Master Plan podcast.

    30:00.386 –> 30:05.170

    [SPEAKER_01]: Find out more at e-commercemasterplanned.com slash podcast.

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    eCommerce Master PlanBy Chloe Thomas