Aaron Keyes and Dee Wilson sit down with Elias Dummer, a Canadian musician and the principal songwriter and founding member of the City Harmonic band.

This thought-provoking conversation will stir every worship leader to wrestle with the (often unspoken) desire to produce those goosebump moments on a Sunday morning. There's a much stronger connection between behavioral science and song/set structure than we might realize. What's really beneath it, and how does it affect what we're communicating about God and the spiritual formation of our congregations? At the end of the day, what does it mean to actually lead HUMANS in worship?