Jaclyn Silbernagel sits down with Jean Boulton, complexity scientist, author of The Dao of Complexity and Embracing Complexity, and thought leader on systems change. Together, they explore what it means to rethink how the world works, seeing systems as dynamic and relational. They talk about embracing uncertainty, using narrative and shared sense-making to co-create the future, and shifting from quick fixes to deeper systems change in addressing the root causes of challenges like poverty.