This is our 20th episode of the Brain Brew Whisk(e)y Academy. We will discuss failure in making whisk(e)y and the craft cocktail recipe - the Rattlesnake. This podcast episode features Whiskey Maker - Doug Hall and Whiskey Drinker - Tripp Babbitt.

Show Notes

[00:00:04] Brain Brew Whisk(e)y Academy

[00:00:33] Pushing the Edges of Whisk(e)y Making

[00:03:32] Stop the Copying - Make Something New

[00:05:33] If Bartenders Get a Better Product - Will They Switch?

[00:06:42] Craft Cocktail Recipe - The Rattlesnake

[00:06:48] History

[00:07:19] Step 1

[00:07:29] Step 2

[00:07:33] Step 3

[00:07:35] Step 4

[00:12:04] You are Not Pushing the Edges If You Find a Winner Early

[00:13:19] Changing Multiple Variables

 

 

Transcript

Tripp: [00:00:04] This is the Brain Brew Whisk(e)y  Academy podcasts where we're going to take you behind the scenes on what it takes to build a whisk(e)y distillery business. The Eureka! Ranch team led by Doug Hall are creating a craft whisky company like has never been done before

 

Tripp: [00:00:25] So twelve failures in the. So what you're telling me is the brain grew whisk(e)y Academy is is a loser group that's a loser.

 

Doug: [00:00:33] We lose faster than anybody. We have made. We have made more crappy whisk(e)y than anybody on earth but you know we these 72 whiskeys in seven days. You know nobody else can do it. And so we're pushing the edges of the envelope and taking it to new places. And I mentioned this earlier. You know we have a statistical team at the ranch that's just ridiculously good. And they put together this testing matrix for this project that we've defined. And there were like two hundred and fifty seven tests that would need to be done to to look at all the variables that we were playing with. And so they decided to map the edges. They found the twelve that could determine it and hasn't said they all failed but they each failed differently so it's a different failure.

 

Doug: [00:01:26] Mm hmm. And so from those failures we learned a bunch and now this week we will do the next round of twelve failures and then the next round and and then eventually we will have a two to one winner versus two of the most popular whiskies in America. Then that's what we're gonna do. And you know I call it a fail fearlessly you know because we're excited.

 

Doug: [00:02:00] I mean I was at dinner last night. I was in a bar and I ordered a cocktail and they use this whisk(e)y which I'm not going to give them advertising by mentioning my name. They use this whisk(e)y in it. And as I was drinking it I said I can't wait to do a better version of this happened in this bar because I could just I could taste it in my mind. I know where we're going and it's just gonna kick butt. I had sold by a big conglomerate. You know it's just it's not a craft thing it's a faceless corporate you know an international conglomerate that makes the product and then not even American owned. And so it'll be fun. It'll be fun to poke them. It'll be fun to poke him. And so every time we fail we just we just like we got a bull's eye on him and that's what this craft guys do is is that you know what the big companies have to worry about is there's some that case like us who says I think I can take them out and I may have been around for a long time. But yeah we can do something better.

 

Tripp: [00:03:03] So now we see the disruption. It's kind of the Amazon mindset with regards to the retail. It's because they found it found a way in order to beat it but help me with one thing Doug. When you're talking about these 12 whiskeys and just because we talked about different things before I know you're trying to set up a system where people are tasting different grains and those types of things in order to come up with their own whisk(e)y. Is this part of that or is this something else now.

 

Doug: [00:03:32] These are this is just a couple of brands that we're gonna do and we're gonna run them as a test here in Cincinnati to see how it is. So we're open now for partners so we've got all of our federal and state approvals in fact we're working with some some distillers around the world to make their own whisk(e)y in fact I had one last week to look tasted my our craft products and he said Well I'd like that I said Well I'm not gonna sell you that. I said I I'll make your own whisk(e)y though but you're not gonna sell my whisk(e)y that's my whisk(e)y. You make your own whisk(e)y. And so we have deconstructed. We've got a bourbon thing where you can taste bourbon with different types of woods. We've got a whisk(e)y one where you can turn around and bring together rye and barley and different things in different ways and you can make your own product.

 

Doug: [00:04:17] And so we work with the distillers to help them craft their own custom whisk(e)y. And then we'll make it to their specifications just for them and then they bottle it and the result is as much more profitability than they can make significantly more profitable. And the best thing is is they can have it like within 48 hours. We can make it you know and then they can have it. And so we've got unlimited supply so. So it's just a change of the game and it's not a replacement for the stuff that they're distilling themselves. It's not a replacement. It's an end not an oar but it's opening up the doors to new tastes new flavors and new ways because you know it's all wood. It's all about wood and and that's what we're doing.

 

Tripp: [00:05:06] So this is adding then to your line of it's tall stacks and Keel Boat those types of thing is that that when.

 

Doug: [00:05:13] It's actually going to be it's actually gonna be a separate line and Oh really. And it's really just an experiment. It's a business model experiment that we're gonna do to see if there's a couple of products that are that do a disproportionate amount of volume out there in the marketplace and the question is is can we can we compete.

 

Doug: [00:05:33] Can we can we take 20 percent of the buyers in Cincinnati. Can we get them to flip to us if we have a better. I mean we don't have anywhere near the money these guys have. But will the bartenders when we give them a better product at reasonably the same price. I mean we'll be a little bit higher. Will they switch to us or will you know the money that these guys give the promotional money even though you're not supposed to give money for bars. I'm not saying that these guys are but it does appear that there's a lot of benefits that bartenders get from various brands will we be able to to compete or not. Or will they're just their giant size you know squish us you know kind of thing I don't know.

 

Doug: [00:06:21] I don't know but I see making some you know making three or four hundred cases taking them around to the bars in Cincinnati and seeing what happens. I mean it's not a you know I mean lose money on it and if it really works then then we would work with distilleries around the country to do the same thing.

 

Tripp: [00:06:42] All right well tell us about our craft cocktail recipe this week. The rattlesnake.

 

Doug: [00:06:48] Yeah. So the Savoy hotel and bar in London is the famous American bar at the Savoy. There's a famous book called The Savoy cocktail book which is ironic that it would be in London because they've not been as big with cocktails they're getting much better now much much better now but historically it's not been. And so if you took a Sazerac and a gold rush and you cross pollinated them this is what you'd get. And so it's in the show notes.

 

Doug: [00:07:19] But basically it's an ounce and a half to two ounces of bourbon. In our case we use our Paddle Wheel are which has the 200 year wood in it.

 

Doug: [00:07:29] A teaspoon of absinthe which is a nod to the Sazerac.

 

Doug: [00:07:33] A half ounce of simple syrup.

 

Doug: [00:07:35] And a half ounce of lemon juice which is a nod to the Gold Rush type of product.

 

Doug: [00:07:42] And I just think it has a really nice complexity to it. It's it's definitely cousins of those. Last night I had that cocktail I was mentioning it was a Sazerac made with honey water instead of simple syrup which again is kind of going towards gold rush. So so in that vein this three or four different types of cocktails that you can make and if you're you know if all you've drank is old fashions is which what you've had which generally will have orange sometimes Cherry sometimes not. Not if we've only had old fashioned which is the number one cocktail in the world. These are great ones for you to start to experiment with and start to play with so that you can get you know something a little bit different for you.

 

Tripp: [00:08:28] Very good. A good idea. The Bourbon and the absinthe. So as opposed simple syrup you're not using that honey water that's in the gold rush then you go simple circle. But that's what's in the Sazerac.

 

Doug: [00:08:44] So yeah. Yeah. And that's what's in the Sazerac because I want to make the absinthe come up although the one I had there and the Lemon I want those to be intention more so. I mean here we've got the lemon in the absence working with each other. There's just some sweetness when you start to do the honey and the lemon those two become the drama to it. So you know there's only so many tastings and then of course in our case the powder where bourbon because remember we're taking wood from an old barn it's air dried at least it would be 100 years when they built the barn. Another hundred years air dried so 200 year old wood which is technically actually cleaner than the trees today because it was less pollutants and we take that wouldn't cut it up and then we put it into the whisky and we finish it replicating seasons a barrel aging and it just there's just a richness in the back of that bourbon that just you know grounds it. You know sometimes bourbons can be very simple I guess is a word corny you know very one dimensional without a lot of complexity to it. This puts this takes a bourbon in and takes it to a much richer much deeper complexity than than any other bourbon that you're going to have.

 

Tripp: [00:10:01] All right. Any other suggestions or comments with regards to especially in the whisk(e)y business around failure.

 

Doug: [00:10:12] You just have to you've got to change your mind. You've got to change your mind. You've got to open up your mind to this as a step.

 

Doug: [00:10:21] In fact if you if you're compulsive about planning plan 20 failures. Just put it down. OK so we're going to fail 20 times over the next three months we're going to fail 20 times and then just build it in it start from the fact that you're going to fail because you're going to. OK. Having been doing this now for 40 years I can tell you you're going to fail. So just get over yourself. You know that false sense of perfection is not how you get to making great stuff. Now that said we want to do it fast and cheap.

 

Doug: [00:10:55] So you got to find ways to do it fast and cheap. And I'm not talking about one shot I'm not taking two shot. I'm talking about literally dozens of shots and that's how you know so it's like before working with a distillery I mean I'll encourage them to make 20 or 30 different whiskies using our technology. And so that they get something somebody sometimes. OK that's it. I don't know I know cameraman. All right. Let's really push the edges of this thing. Let's do something let's do something it's really cool and and and so if you change your frame work on this there is truly joy in failure.

 

Tripp: [00:11:34] So so one last question and just kind of because I'm not into the whisk(e)y business per se. What is the you know I see these experiments. I mean have you ever gone out and you started an experiment and the first one was a winner. I've been or do you come with the mindset that I'm going to start with 20 and I'm going to try all 20 and then you've maybe the first one was the winner or you hit it or whatever.

 

Doug: [00:12:04] Yeah. Yes. And and and it drove me crazy because what happened is is in the beginning it took like 72 cycles to get to anything that was even drinkable. And as time got on we got smarter and smarter. So we knew areas to not go and then we had about a six month run where I looked back and I realized we hadn't gotten smarter. I mean we were just we were setting the pressure we were setting the wood we were cutting it we were 24 variables and we were literally playing in the safe zone. And so I got furious because if you're hitting it too soon that means you're not stretching the edges which is why in this project we're we're going way out on the edges. And and they you know because if you're hitting it all the time that means you're not taking chances. I mean you're not as Frances Mallman says you're not at the edge of uncertainty.

 

Doug: [00:12:58] And so it is a bad sign if you're getting it right away because that means you actually haven't hit the best you've just been lazy and so failure is not optional. When it comes to what I do and the Brain Brew or at Eureka! Ranch otherwise we're never going do anything great.

 

Tripp: [00:13:19] So is that the same for as you're testing these whiskeys that you have. I don't know if you've got your 20. And you said something in there that that caught me which was we knew not to go there is what you're saying now is yeah we need to go there even though that's kind of an area that I would have said no we won't go down that path that you're going to test it even though you believe that's not the right path.

 

Doug: [00:13:54] Yeah. So so twenty four variables right. We know that variable by itself doesn't do it but if I change five other things. So this new product that we're doing we've changed our whole you know the guys ran a whole different framework on stuff and so we're finding things that we didn't realize before. I mean with 24 variables 24 factorial there's a lot of permutations we got here. And so but you signed certain recipes and that's what sadly companies that don't do well they find a recipe they love and then they optimize that recipe as opposed to experimenting. If I have to give one thing to the beer people you know you go to a craft brewery and they'll have those weird kegs of bill of made. Now some of these things are beyond hideous but at least they're trying things. They're pushing the edges and that's what we need more in the spirits business is people pushing the edges. I'm going to go to a place tonight where a guy is pushing the edges and I've already heard from some people that he's that they're terrible. But I want to taste them for myself but I give him a lot of credit for pushing the edges on tastes and flavors versus what one would normally do. I think that's I mean that's what that's how we're going to discover new stuff.

 

Tripp: [00:15:10] So this is the same on the mindset you said there's 24 Variable variables. Is there ways to add to those 24 variables or.

 

Doug: [00:15:19] I'm sure there is. Right now we've we've defined 24 that are meaningful. I mean there are many variables that we can add. I'm trying to put to the ones that have a lot of umph to them in other words if I move it up 30 percent it has a tangible impact on the product. These these are the ones that are the the bigger ones. Now that said there could be others that we don't know. And when we get into it you know there will I'm sure there are. I'm sure there are. But right now we've got a set of 24 that we have that we play with. Okay. So I can make the same product probably 10 different ways by playing off you know different ways to approach it and depending upon the wood and spirit and what we're trying to do for a taste that that's the art that goes with this science all right.

 

Tripp: [00:16:06] So what I learned from this is embrace failure. Push the edges and if you're winning too soon you're not pushing the edges far enough. You've got it that you have to go through there guy.

 

Doug: [00:16:21] A sign that you've become a slugged is when you are just getting it right right away. So plan for failure and enjoy the ride.

 

Tripp: [00:16:35] Have you ever thought about owning your own craft whisk(e)y business. Well subscribe to the brain brew whisk(e)y Academy because in the early 2019. We'll be offering opportunities to start your own business whether you are an aspiring entrepreneur curious about innovation or just like a good story. The brain brew whisk(e)y Academy podcast will take you behind the scenes to learn the good bad and the ugly about what it takes to create whisk(e)y from the craft space. Which is growing at a crazy rate. Lessons learned can be applied. Broadly.