Identify your four types of people: Categorize your congregation into sleepers (spiritually asleep), seekers (genuinely open), consumers (service-focused), and disciples (committed followers)—and focus your energy strategically on each group rather than trying to be everything to everyone.

Simplify to transform: Stop adding more programs. Instead, focus on creating a discipleship culture through spiritual disciplines like reflection, gratitude, and confession that actually change hearts and behavior, not just knowledge.

Lead from your own renewal: Pastors experiencing burnout should prioritize their own spiritual formation and daily gratitude first—this "rewires" your soul and naturally makes your church healthier and more missional.

Build a scalable discipleship pathway: Multi-campus churches can maintain their DNA while reaching diverse communities by being intentional about discipleship at every level, from sleepers to mature disciples.

Pastor Daniel Im sits down with Bart Blair to discuss one of the most critical challenges facing church leaders today: how to disciple people in a way that actually transforms their lives and faith practices, not just fills their heads with Bible knowledge.

In this conversation, Daniel shares lessons from leading a 104-year-old multi-ethnic, multi-campus church in post-Christian Canada, and discusses his latest book, The Discipleship Opportunity: Leading a Great-Commission Church in a Post-Everything World. If you're a pastor feeling burned out, questioning your approach, or wondering how to reach and disciple people differently in today's culture, this episode is for you.

Daniel challenges the church growth mentality that prioritizes attendance and buildings over genuine discipleship. He explains why many churches create "Christian consumers" instead of committed disciples, and what a healthier framework looks like.

Daniel introduces the "quadrant" of people every church has: sleepers (spiritually asleep members), seekers (genuinely open to faith), consumers (who view church as a service to attend), and disciples (committed followers). Understanding these categories changes everything about your approach.

Rather than chasing larger numbers, Daniel shares a surprising insight: when pastors focus on daily gratitude, spiritual disciplines, and their own transformation, the church naturally becomes healthier and more missional.

From his experience at Beulah Alliance Church (now multi-campus with 12,000+ attendees), Daniel shares how to build a discipleship culture that scales without losing its DNA.

Daniel shares fascinating insights about how our brains actually change when we practice spiritual disciplines like reflection, meditation, and confession—and why this matters for church leaders trying to help people grow.

"My heart and my desire for you is that just like I pray every week, God, would you wake up the sleepers, the seekers, the consumers, and the disciples."

"It's so easy to just give up. It's so easy to get into ruts and just phone it in. When you wake up every day with intentional gratitude to Jesus... it will actually rewire your mind and your soul in the way that God designed it."

"The world has changed dramatically. Church leaders must change their strategies, not retreat to the past."

"If we don't reflect upon our life, we're just going to keep on repeating it over and over again."

Daniel challenges the assumption that more programs = better discipleship. Instead, he advocates for:

Simplifying your church structure to focus on spiritual formation rather than activity

Identifying where people are spiritually (sleepers, seekers, consumers, disciples) and meeting them there

Using reflection and spiritual practice as tools for actual transformation

Building accountability relationships where believers disciple one another

One of the most encouraging parts of this conversation is Daniel's message for exhausted pastors:

Don't wait for better circumstances to renew your joy in ministry

Start each day with intentional gratitude for the calling God has given you

Focus on your own spiritual formation first

Remember that God's mission is bigger than your church's growth numbers

Rather than trying to reach the "Christian consumers" (people who just want a good service), Daniel encourages pastors to focus energy on:

Spiritually asleep members who have grown numb to their faith

Genuine seekers who are open and curious about following Jesus

People outside the church who are actually hungry for real community and meaning

This shift in focus often leads to greater spiritual health and authentic growth.

Beulah Alliance Church has undergone significant demographic changes in the past 15 years, becoming increasingly multi-ethnic while remaining rooted in its values and mission. Daniel shares how to:

Navigate rapid cultural shifts in your community

Build inclusivity without diluting your church's core identity

Lead a diverse congregation toward unified mission

Develop leaders from within your changing community

The pandemic exposed weaknesses in many churches' discipleship approaches. Daniel discusses:

What needs to change about how we "do church" in the post-everything world

Why pastors shouldn't try to recreate the pre-pandemic church

How to build resilience and flexibility into your discipleship culture

The role of intentional spiritual disciplines in post-pandemic ministry

Book: The Discipleship Opportunity: Leading a Great-Commission Church in a Post-Everything World by Daniel Im

Book: No Silver Bullets: Five Small Shifts that Will Transform Your Ministry by Daniel Im

Website: danielim.com

Podcast: IMbetween Podcast (with his wife, Christina) — exploring marriage, parenting, and faith from pastoral, theological, and psychological perspectives

Church: Beulah Alliance Church — Edmonton, Alberta

Pastor Daniel Im is the Lead Pastor of Beulah Alliance Church in Edmonton, Alberta, a 104-year-old, multi-ethnic, multi-campus church with five generations of faith community. He's the author of several books, including The Discipleship Opportunity, No Silver Bullets, Planting Missional Churches, and You Are What You Do.

Daniel's background includes:

Serving in pastoral roles across Vancouver, Montreal, Korea, Nashville, and now Edmonton

Co-writing Planting Missional Churches with Ed Stetzer

Producing content with LifeWay Christian Resources

Currently pursuing a doctorate and studying the neuroscience of spiritual formation

Daniel is Canadian of Korean descent and grew up in a Korean immigrant family in the Vancouver area. He's married to Christina, with whom he co-hosts the IMbetween Podcast. His unique combination of pastoral experience, theological training, and interest in neuroscience makes him a distinctive voice in today's church leadership conversation.

Use these questions to discuss this episode with your church's leadership or small group:

Which category describes most of the people in your church right now—sleepers, seekers, consumers, or disciples? What does that tell you about your discipleship approach?

What programs could you simplify or eliminate to focus more on spiritual transformation than activity?

How are you personally practicing spiritual disciplines like reflection, meditation, and confession? How could you model this for your congregation?

What would it look like for your church to be more intentional about reaching spiritually asleep members and genuine seekers rather than just serving existing "Christian consumers"?

As a pastor, where are you experiencing burnout? How could focusing on daily gratitude and your own spiritual formation help?

How is your community changing demographically? How can your church build inclusivity while staying rooted in your core mission?

If this conversation encouraged you or challenged your thinking about your church's future, share it with:

Your church leadership team or board

Your pastor or denomination leader

Church planter networks in your area

Other pastors navigating similar challenges

New episodes release on the 1st and 15th of every month. Subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts or on YouTube to get notified when new conversations about church leadership, revitalization, and growth drop in your feed.