Matt and Michael dive deep into the uncomfortable reality that suffering is not just inevitable, but essential for growth. They explore the tension between wanting to avoid pain and the necessity of embracing it to truly live. From Carl Jung's observation that neuroses are alternatives to legitimate suffering, to the humbling realization that wisdom cannot be earned without cost, the conversation winds through marriage, parenting, business, and faith.

They grapple with what it means to "correct toward" something, to have a destination even when you know you'll get lost along the way. Matt shares a personal story about apologizing to his teenage daughters for holding onto outdated rules. Michael reflects on 20 years of business mistakes that finally feel like wisdom. Together they ask: Can we trust people who aren't perfect? Can we be good if we're also bad?

The episode culminates in a raw reflection on Easter and the resurrection. Not the sanitized version, but the brutal reality of what it means for God to enter human suffering completely. Christ is risen. Everything changes.

Cheers y'all 🍻

Chapters:

[0:00] Learning the Hard Way

[4:14] The Tone Is Different Tonight

[7:03] Neuroses and Legitimate Suffering

[10:50] The Cost of Wisdom

[14:16] Telling Stories That Don't Match Reality

[17:20] What We Cannot See

[20:17] Fear and Pain

[24:33] The Paradox of Effort and Goodness

[27:02] What Are You Avoiding?

[31:06] Lord of the Rings and Business Vision

[35:55] The Innocent Man Who Suffered

[41:35] Seasons and Transitions

[46:40] The Resurrection Changes Everything

[57:11] Goodness and Measurement

[66:50] Trust and Correcting Toward

[72:37] Repentance and Safety

[81:24] Do You Have Something to Correct Toward?

Resources:

• David Ramirez — https://www.last.fm/music/David+Ramirez/_/The+Hard+Way

• Carl Jung — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Jung

• The Chosen — https://thechosen.tv

• Rdio Music Streaming — Postmortem: https://www.theverge.com/2015/11/17/9750890/rdio-shutdown-pandora

• C.S. Lewis — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C.S._Lewis

• Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksandr_Solzhenitsyn

• Fyodor Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov — https://www.amazon.com/Brothers-Karamazov-Fyodor-Dostoevsky/dp/0374528373

• Charles Taylor, A Secular Age — https://www.amazon.com/Secular-Age-Charles-Taylor/dp/0674986912

• Proverbs 4:7 — https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Proverbs+4:7

• Hebrews 12:11 — https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews+12:11

Find us here:

x.com/mattmccloskey

x.com/michaelvaclav

All Matt's Links — https://solo.to/mattmccloskey

All Michael's Links — https://solo.to/michaelvaclav

Sovereign Goods — https://sovereigngoods.shop

Cafe Medici — https://mediciroasting.com