Transcript

Jessica: You are listening to LYNC Interview. I'm Jessica Eturralde. Building bridges across faith communities isn't always easy, but it can lead to unexpected friendships and deeper understanding. In this episode of LYNC Interview, we sit down with Carter Brown LYNC's Project manager for the Covenantal Pluralism Initiative in South Florida.

Pastor at Crossbridge Brickle Church in Miami, Carter shares his journey of engaging with a neighboring imam and the moss. He leads the challenges and breakthroughs along the way and how these multifaith relationships have shaped his congregation. Welcome Carter Brown. So last year, LYNC co-hosted the first ever multi-faith picnic with Crossbridge Brickle and the Islamic Center of Greater Miami.

I was fortunate to be able to attend that, and I recall how unique that was on the mosque grounds. Christians and Muslims gathered in a market style atmosphere and we shared delicious Mediterranean food and there were bouncy houses and even a petting zoo for the children. But that was not the first multi-faith discussion in Miami Between your church and attendees at the mosque.

The picnic, as I understand it was a result of a relationship that began a few years ago between yourself and Dr. Abdul Hamid Samra, the Imam and director of religious services at the mosque. So now, what initially motivated you to establish a relationship with a neighboring mosque and Imam Samra?

Carter: So I would say that it goes all the way back to my formation of faith when I became a Christian.

College and then felt called to be a pastor, which was surprising to me. But when God has a call on your life, you listen and follow. And when I felt called to be a pastor, I immediately like actually the next day changed my major from business to religion. I went to Florida State University and I studied and focused my religious studies on Islam primarily.

And that was because I felt called to to learn what other people believe is true. What other faith traditions hold so that I might be able to speak in and engage with love, those that are of another faith. If I'm going to commit my life to preaching and teaching that Christianity is the way, the truth and the life, how could I do it if I don't know what other people believe?

That started a journey for me of establishing relationships with people of other faith traditions. And so once I got connected with Wade Cusack, the founder of LYNC, he and his wife Helena started attending Crossbridge Brickle many years ago. We dreamed about partnerships in Miami, and a connection was made with myself and Imam Samra.

Where we had lunch together and that was brought together by Wade and we just started to connect and share stories of what it was like to lead congregations or be in the city of Miami with all of the different struggles and difficulties that it poses men of faith, even though our faith traditions are different.

It opened up a relationship that started from that lunch that blossomed into having dinner with our wives at each other's houses. And from there we decided to host an event at our office in downtown with Crossbridge. We, I spoke with Imam Samra and I said, listen, a lot of the concerns that you shared has just been the fear that it is to be Muslim in America.

The prejudice that happens. And I said, I would love to have the opportunity to host you where you could share your faith and you know your story. And we could have questions that our people from our church could ask you. Maybe they've never been able to ask questions of a Muslim neighbor or friend.

Certainly not an imam. And we held that event and it was really amazing. Just a time of conversation about 40 people attended. I think what established really on that event was neither myself nor Imam Samara believe in a unitarian view of faith and religion. I believe that the Christian Gospel is the truth, and Jesus is the way, the truth in the life.

And we even jokingly have shared before that I want ai. I want the people that attend your mosque to become Christian. He's I want them to become Muslim. And that has been interesting because we've been able to hold to conviction of our faith and not sway at all in the purpose for me of the gospel and the great commission and make disciples of all nations.

But we've been able to build a friendship based upon love and listening to each other. And part of that, you know what blossomed out of that was this desire to link our congregations or our, the mosque and the church to have shared relationship. Because, one of the things that I said to our church and I continue to repeat to Imam Samara is that, Jesus gave us a pattern.

And he called us to recognize two things, very important. He was only asked for one, and he gave two. He was asked What the greatest commandment is? The love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength. And Jesus says The second is like it. Love your neighbor as yourself. And we have positioned ourselves to been convicted that our Muslim neighbors in Miami are in fact our neighbors.

Our neighbors are not just those people that maybe. Grew up in the church or have been disenfranchised with the church or are you know, of a, maybe a more comfortable environment for many that are maybe used to certain traditions and cultures? Our Muslim neighbors are our neighbors and Jesus calls us to love them, and we cannot love them if we don't know them.

And so that was really where the Multifaith picnic came from, was a desire to get to know each other. From our side, it was so that we could get to know them so that we could love them with the love of Jesus. And that's where it came from and the time together was absolutely amazing. And we have more things on the horizon to connect together.

Just show love to one another across religious lines and oftentimes barriers that have been established often out of fear.

[ COMMERCIAL BREAK]

Jessica: At a time when our environment is. So polarizing. It's really inspiring to hear you say that both you and Imam Samara collectively decided that you wanted to share your congregations, you wanted your congregations to engage one another. Were there any hesitations or challenges in engaging in these relationships or?

Carter: So I would say there's two things.

One thing is just. Having a sensitivity toward the different cultures. There is a different level of acceptance with certain things. There are certain restrictions in particular from our side to engaging and collaborating with the mosque and the Muslim community. There are restrictions and boundaries and certain things that they have and hold to that we do not.

And I'm certainly on the other side as well. So there, so navigating that is a delicate matter. It just takes that relationship to talk it through and to make sure to be sensitive. And when someone, once your friend, you can have those conversations openly and now have to be afraid of saying, Hey, help us navigate this.

We want to be sensitive. And they say the same thing in reverse. Secondly, there is a hesitation or there has been. I wouldn't say pushback, but there have been questions about, this is the fear component I talk about what if people go and they catch a vision for Islam and they convert to, to become a Muslim.

And what I have said time and time again is that I think truth wins and I believe that Jesus is the truth. I'm not afraid. I remember when I went into, I. Study religion at Florida State. Almost every single person that was a mentor of mine or a friend told me not to because they were afraid that I would get convinced that Christianity was not true because everyone in my major was an atheist.

And the professors were very hostile towards Christianity. And I would remember a feeling, a deep sense was I have the power of the Holy Spirit in me. I have the conviction and assurance of truth in my salvation. I don't need to be afraid to love the people and engage the people that Jesus has charged me to love and care for, and to engage with and to have debate and discussion.

And we've had those debates and discussions. Part of that time that we had with Imam Samara, there was the sharing of different views on matters. And so we engage because of the commandment, to love knowing that the Holy Spirit is our guarantor of salvation and the assurance of our faith. We don't shy away for fear.

And so that's really how we've navigated that concern and people have really resonated with that and said that makes a lot of sense because why would we respond out of fear when Jesus has given us a commission to love? And so that's what we're going to do. How has your congregation grown or benefited from these multi-faith connections?

I think cultural awareness and cultural agility is a big part of it. I think it has deepened their faith to to not only learn about another faith tradition that is opposite of ours, different from ours, but also to act out and live out the faith that Jesus commands them to, has mobilized them for mission.

In their own context, it has brought, brought down some walls for many of them where they maybe felt like nervous to share their faith with a coworker for fear of what might happen. And so when you put, when you bring them into environments that maybe previously they would've been uncomfortable or nervous around, and they see that there's nothing to fear when you're living out the commandment that Jesus has given you, then it opens up, missional mindset and a courage to live out their faith in other aspects of their life. And it has also just opened up a pathway for people to be more willing to be friends with people that are different from them. And I think that's been really beautiful. We at Crossbridge have a saying which is belong before you believe.

And that has deepened that culture because. We want people to belong to the church before they believe. We want them to feel safe to share their questions and doubts. And so exporting that mentality into this relationship with the mosque has deepened that sentiment of we want people to belong and be friends with people.

And there, through that relationship, the opportunity of gospel ministry and the proclamation of Jesus has opened up.

Jessica: It sounds to me like it, and possibly this doesn't always happen, but it sounds to me that there is opportunity for some people to actually deepen their faith through doing this. That by contrast or expanding who they speak to and eventually their love for people who are different than them.

Would cause them to want to anchor in their faith and really sift through what they believe. With that being said, and you touched on this a little bit, but have you ever faced concerns within your church about engaging with the Muslim community particularly, and you did speak on this a little bit, perhaps you have some more to add, but particularly regarding the possibility of members converting to Islam, and if so, how have you navigated those discussions?

Carter: Yes, like I mentioned, we have had some, it has not been a major pushback because we fought really hard for a long time to establish a culture of mission and belonging in our church. But there were questions certainly and concerns raised by different people in one-on-one conversation. Nothing in terms of a corporate nature, but one-on-one conversation.

I would say just as a side, overwhelmingly, there was excitement and enthusiasm behind the engagement. But what I would say is that, and what I've told a lot of people is that we don't get to decide who we engage in friendship, who we love, and the people that. We should befriend as being made in the image of God and pray for gospel opportunities.

Oftentimes in the church world, you will have in from a sermon or from the pulpit or in a small group, an encouragement to speak with your coworkers about Jesus or befriend your neighbors and to pray with and for your family. That is far from God. This context is it's accepted. It's, there's never a conversation.

What if your coworker who's, unchurched or an atheist or into some new age practices, which are, blossoming and growing in North America, or what if they convince you that God isn't real? Or what if they convince you that you need to subscribe to some, Buddhist?

No one's ever saying that. They say it with Islam. They don't even say it with Judaism. So to me I was like, why? Why have we decided that Muslims are the people that we should be fearful of engaging because they might convert our people. It is just as likely of atheist. De-churched Catholics and Christians Buddhist, spiritualist, astrologists, whatever you could fill in the blank.

And I said, and I always tell people, Jesus has called us to love all people and we don't get to choose. And if there's someone that has been, if there's a people group that the church has not done a good job of reaching, they're really an unreached people group. In the United States, the Muslim community, because there's fear of engaging them.

Those are the very people that we should be engaging with love and not out of some side way of with any other agenda, but to love them as image bearers of God, to listen to their story, to build friendships with them, and to pray that God would open up gospel conversations and the Holy Spirit would move and give us wisdom and discernment.

That's what we do. And I think people understand that and they receive that when they consider it in that framework, and they move from a posture of fear to a posture of mission and love. Thank you for that. Looking back on last year's multifaith picnic, what were the most meaningful takeaways?

I think just the image in my head of the mixing of culture and people like you shared, sharing delicious food and our kids playing together on the bounce houses and in the petting zoo and the conversations that are coming forward or around the market. That was really a powerful experience.

And what it has led to is, a deeper desire for engagement and not just with continuing to do work and to connect with the mosque, but also to say, Hey, how are we reaching our neighborhood? So I'll give you an example. There's been this kind of, desire to say we need to do a better job of loving the neighborhood in which we're situated.

And that, and I th I believe that the multi-faith picnic was a big part of that. And so that has led to now us launching mo free movie nights or people in the Brickell area to come bring a blanket with their family and friends. Watch on a big 30 foot screen tv, a free movie night, and to get to know their neighbors.

And that was born out of a desire to bring different people from different cultures with different beliefs together for the sake of getting to know one another and for the sake of learning how to love each other. We're believing that's also going to open up opportunities for people to experience the love of Jesus as well.

So these are some of the tangible fruits that we didn't expect that are coming out of this friendship and this partnership.

 COMMERCIAL BREAK]

Jessica: As you prepare for the upcoming event. As I understand it April 26th, you're having the next multifaith picnic, so this will be the second one. What changes or progress do you hope to see?

Carter: Honestly, I want it just to be exactly like the last one. So I hope that we can replicate that. But this time it's going to be at our church. So in last time we went to the mosque, this time the mosque is going to come to the church.

And so I, I am just praying right now that the Lord gives us wisdom of how we can create the most hospitable environment. 'cause we recognize that a lot of. Those that come from the mosque to the events will probably have never gone to a church or on a church property before. And just like our people had never gone to a mosque, it the same will be in reverse.

And we want to show the same level of hospitality and sensitivity that they did to us. And so we're in that process of planning that and make and trying to ensure that they feel the same level of comfort and acceptance. As we felt when we came.

Jessica: I do recall that now that the plan was to take turns each year, one year, the mosque host, and the next year the church host and then repeat, right?

Carter: Correct. Correct.

Jessica: I'm excited to see how it will pan out this year when I attend because I imagine now that it has conspired one time that. People have a general idea of what to expect, although it's a different location and it probably comes with its own new things, as you indicated for a lot of attendees.

But I would imagine that people have a little bit of understanding of what to expect. I'm interested to see I that turn out. I want to go back to something earlier you were talking about, when you were discussing about the Muslims in our country being an unreached group. I thought that was a really powerful statement and I will share with you that at the end of last year, I was speaking to some Muslims in my community and we were actually talking about, the possibility of interviewing some people for a radio program that we have been experimenting with. It's called LYNC Square. And the whole idea is that you ask people just general public, people in the public square, the same questions like foundational questions around their perception of.

Let's say terms like religious freedom of what social cohesion means to them of when was the last time they spoke to someone who had different beliefs than them, things like that. But the, we only did it one time as a pilot, and we found that the towns that we did it in, I had a few correspondence in a couple of different states and different towns, but they still fell under.

Either being Christian, atheist or agnostic mostly. And we were looking for some diversity, but I found in talking to the Muslims in my community some that I've had somewhat of a dialogue with, that there is a lot of fear on their end. Especially as things develop across the world globally that the gap is widening.

Yeah. Christians who have a burden to just have a conversation with them, to show them that they care about them. What advice would you give them?

Carter: I would say

I would say find opportunities to walk into contact with them. And don't be afraid of asking questions. I think for those that are Christians, if someone comes up to you that's an atheist or not agnostic and says, Hey, I I heard you're a Christian, or, I know you're a Christian, can you tell me why you think like this?

Or can you explain to me what you believe about this? Most Christians would say That would be amazing. I would love it if someone asked me. To share what I believe or why I believe what I believe or why I practice some certain thing, or why do you go to church every Sunday? If we would love to share, then those that are of the Muslim faith, they're human beings too.

And they would love to share their experiences, their feelings. You don't have to be afraid of asking, Hey, tell me, what is it like to be a Muslim in our city? Tell me your story. How did you, where, where are you from and how did you get connected and what has your experience been?

Those questions are questions that open up, friendship and conversation. I always think about Jesus and John four when he goes to the woman at the well. And we always think about that sermon...