I talk with Ivo about manhood and learning through relationships and he shares his work at a new kind of thinking organisation concerned with ‘Emergence’. We consider why is it important to take this new approach and what are the more subtle constraints in our existing institutions and processes. We talk about the importance of shadow work when discussing Islam and the West. Then the conversation grows more experimental as we explore reconceiving of power through  ‘exousiance’ and in doing so pause and dwell in not knowing. At the end, I introduce some of my more experimental ideas about Jesus as Game B sage and what is meant by ‘I am’ in scripture.