Great catch up with Joe, who's transitioning well into finance and business, after a career in Rugby. A Wasps legend, and stints with Gloucester, Bath, Saracens and Sale Sharks. Proud of his England cap, but accepts he was in an era of Ben Youngs and Danny Care. Loved Rugby, but also didn't love parts of it. His honesty is admirable and it's great to see that he's realistic in his reflection on a game that still has so much more to do if it's to grow.