In this episode of Hash It Out, Matt Howard hosts a conversation with zero trust creator John Kindervag from Illumio and implementation expert Don Jeske from Virtru. They discuss why organizations continue struggling with zero trust adoption despite its clear benefits for national security and data protection. Kindervag explains how zero trust shifts focus from products to policy and protection, emphasizing the concept of 'protect surfaces' - identifying what specifically needs protection rather than trying to protect everything at once. Jeske shares his experience implementing zero trust at DHS and the Department of Navy, highlighting how government agencies often turn cybersecurity into acquisition problems and checklist exercises rather than focusing on strategic data protection. The conversation covers the journey nature of zero trust implementation, the importance of starting small with practice protect surfaces, and how AI is forcing organizations to finally address data classification and governance challenges they've long avoided. Both experts emphasize that successful zero trust requires understanding what data you're protecting, who needs access to it, and building incremental capabilities around people, process, and finally products.