In this fourth episode from New Mandala's second series of podcasts looking at the Philippines beyond the clichès, Associate Professor Nicole Curato from University of Canberra's Centre for Deliberative Democracy and Global Governance sits down with Wataru Kusaka to discuss the widespread notion that populist voters are deluded. Wataru Kusaka's extensive ethnographical work with urban poor communities has helped him develop an empathetic and deep understanding of their motivations. From this experience, Kusaka emphasises the importance of recognising populist voters as concrete individuals, rather than abstract others, in the pursuit of truly deliberative democracy.