Key Learning Points:

1.The Father Stunter Culture and how it is holding men back at home and at work

2.Replacing the concept of Breadwinning with Carewinning and why this matters

3.How workplaces can help to challenge some of the harmful social norms that get in the way of gender equity in modern society

On the penultimate episode of the Parenthood Dairies, we are here to talk about modern fatherhood with Danusia Malina-Derben. Alongside being a mum of ten, an academic, entrepreneur, author, speaker and thought leader, Danusia also leads a global firm that fixes boardroom strategy and consults on achieving peak performance. And on top of that, she also hosts two podcasts, School for Mothers and School for Fathers and has also recently written two books on parenthood. We are very excited to have her on the podcast to discuss the latest of these: Spunk.

We first ask Danusia where the idea for Spunk came from. Writing on leadership and feminism, Danusia tells us that she released her first book on motherhood from her own experience and research in 2021. Spunk was the next natural step in that journey, as she had spoken to hundreds of men about fatherhood. Yet this book needed to be research-led even more than her last - so she built a small team of researchers and spoke to over 1,300 respondents, all who were fathers.

Josie says to Danusia how she particularly enjoyed her chapter ‘Share’ - about how Fathers are viewed as the assistant - whether that’s with regard to parenting or domestically. Often, Dads are seen as the fun ‘playmate’ rather than a part of the day-to-day grind.

Danusia says how her research revealed that the ‘domestic zone’ remains women’s, and there were tasks that the surveyed men unanimously did not do in the home. We discuss how mothers are often perpetuating this through ‘maternal gatekeeping’, where women see certain tasks as theirs and assume that they can do them better than their male partner could. This contributes to the ‘father-stunter culture’ - which Danusia believes makes it difficult for men to step into ‘the fatherhood they really want’. Her research revealed a clear desire from men for fatherhood to be viewed differently and to dismiss the idea that men cannot parent as well as women. Danusia points out that it is only through addressing the imbalance in the domestic domain that we can achieve real change in the workplace. She believes that Men, as well as women and children, are being hurt by these ‘patriarchal narratives’.

Josie then asks about another chapter - ‘Fathers with Spunk Care’ - and the concept of a ‘carewinner’ rather than a ‘breadwinner’. Danusia found that men’s identity ‘is squarely around work and financial contribution’, and wished to explore what was standing in the way of being caring fathers. She found that fathers are often ridiculed by others when showing care, as well as demeaned when prioritising their family life over work. She, therefore, invented the phrase ‘carewinner’ - which keeps the narrative of breadwinning - but also embraces fathers who dearly care for their families. Sadly, men who are carewinners are often inhibited to express their feelings as a carer. Danusia argues that workplaces have an opportunity to disassemble these stereotypes; for example, by making sure that part-time and flexible working is targeting men as well as women.

We wrap with Danusia by asking for her final thoughts. Danusia says she believes progressive workplaces have the opportunity to revolutionise domestic life by considering the home lives of their people. There needs to be an understanding that work and home life are linked - which she believes is the key to having a happy and motivated workforce.

Danusia’s top tip is simple: have those difficult conversations. Talk with your partner and analyse your household responsibilities - and involve your children too!