Host Dave Johnson sits down with Matthew Gracie and Brandon Levene, two longtime security practitioners who have transitioned into teaching the next generation of cybersecurity professionals. This conversation explores their educational journeys, teaching philosophies, and what makes today's cybersecurity students different from previous generations.

Key topics & timestamps

Educational backgrounds (2:45 - 6:17)

• Brandon: Psychology degree, early Palm Pilot hacking, LAN party SubSeven pranks
• Matt: English degree, desktop support, voluntold into security by CIO in 2005
• Both learned security before formal education programs existed

Path to teaching (8:01 - 14:24)

• Matt negotiated teaching cybersecurity in exchange for hosting BSides Buffalo
• Brandon pitched cybercrime course at Johns Hopkins after conference conversation

Teaching challenges (10:00 - 21:39)

• Diverse graduate student backgrounds: accounting majors to IT veterans
• Balancing content for newcomers vs. experienced students
• Brandon's classes: majority female in 2 of 4 semesters, policy-focused
• Matt's program: technically-oriented under computer science department

The "Wild West" of cyber education (21:40 - 25:01)

• No standardized curricula across institutions
• Programs emerging from different departments (criminal justice, accounting, CS)
• Difficult to evaluate cybersecurity degrees from unknown schools

Industry challenges (25:02 - 35:45)

• Warning against bootcamp promises without technical fundamentals
• Communication skills as crucial as technical abilities
• Reality check: High stress, long hours, constant learning required

Industry recommendations (36:00 - 39:12)

• Better support systems for junior professionals
• Focus on communication skills alongside technical training
• Sustainable career progression from junior to senior roles

Key quotes

"We're kind of in that same stage that computer science was back in the 60s and 70s, when it was still mostly math professors who just happened to be teaching computer science stuff." - Matt Gracie

"What if we train them and they don't stay, and the counter is, what if we don't train them and they do? I would much rather train them and have competence and they don't stay but incentivize them to actually grow and stay." - Brandon Levene

"Security works best as a dual class... You come up as desktop support or help desk or network engineering, and then transfer into a more security focused role." - Matt Gracie

Helpful links

• B-Sides Buffalo (on X)
• The Rural Tech Fund
• KC7 Cyber

Production Credits

• Co-hosts: Dave Johnson
• Producer: Ben Baker
• Sponsor: Expel MDR

Connect

• Follow Expel (follow us on LinkedIn, X, and YouTube)
• Rate and review on your favorite podcast platform

The Job Security Podcast explores the unique perspectives and stories of the people who make the cybersecurity industry what it is, whether they realize it or not.