This week, I'm pleased to be joined by the lovely Vicky Osterweil, author of the new book In Defense of Looting: A Riotous History of Uncivil Action. In this wide-ranging conversation, we talk about the inextricable nature of class and race, the abolition of whiteness as a necessary step for police and prison abolition, the efficacy of riots, and why joy is what scares cops and politicians the most whenever the looting starts.

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Music:

• Intro: "I Ain't Got No Home in this World" by Woody Guthrie
• Interlude: "Start a Riot" by Duckwrth, Shaboozey
• Outro: "Blue Lies" by Year of the Knife