I do a phone interview with Alexander John Shaia, author of Heart and Mind: The Four-Gospel Journey for Radical Transformation, also Returning from Camino.

Alexander John Shaia, Ph.D., is an educator, psychologist, spiritual director, liturgist, writer, and professional speaker. He is the founder and director of the Blue Door Retreat in Santa Fe, New Mexico. Shaia travels internationally, lecturing and conducting workshops on the four-gospel journey of quadratos, psychotherapy, rites of passage, and Christian meditation and spirituality.