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Episode 131: Secrets Revealed for Middle School Phone Usage
✏️Collaborative Worksheet
https://share.hsforms.com/1t_3g3O3XTBqI-vq1Orq7ngnumis
🎧 Ronald's Podcast
https://podcast.downloadyouthministry.com/category/middle-school-ministry/
DESCRIPTION
In this conversation, Nick Clason and Ronald Long discuss the challenges and opportunities of youth ministry in the digital age, particularly focusing on the role of technology and cell phones among middle schoolers. They explore the importance of engagement in content creation, the necessity of guidelines for responsible phone use, and the balance between digital and in-person ministry. The discussion emphasizes the need for open conversations between parents and children regarding technology, as well as collaborative resources for youth pastors to navigate these challenges effectively.
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⌚TIMECODES
00:00 The Role of Technology in Middle School Ministry
04:50 Guidelines for Responsible Cell Phone Use
09:50 Balancing Digital and In-Person Youth Ministry
14:53 Encouraging Healthy Conversations About Technology
20:01 Collaborative Resources for Youth Pastors
TRANSCRIPT
Nick Clason (00:00)
What's up everybody? I'm Nick and this is.
Ronald (00:04)
Hey guys, I'm Ronald Long. How you doing?
Nick Clason (00:06)
We're excited to be here, Ronald. This is a weird thing. This is your show, this is my show, this is our show.
Ronald (00:08)
we are excited to be here.
Whose show is it really? That's a question.
Nick Clason (00:15)
That is the question that people want to know the answer to.
Ronald (00:19)
Did I just take over hybrid youth ministry? I think I did. I did. great. This is mine now. And yours? You get middle school ministry. Yeah, this is it. Tell Andrea. no.
Nick Clason (00:23)
You did, you did. Yeah. Welcome. Well, actually, yeah, and I'm taking over middle school. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you have exactly. Bye, Andrea. Bye. Anyway, you know, Ronald, it's interesting and I'm excited to have this conversation because probably the biggest, one of the biggest pushbacks I get when I'm pushing stuff like in my hybrid ministry, just idea and whatnot is what about middle schoolers?
especially like in our context, we don't get middle schoolers until like, or we get them at sixth grade, which there's an inflection point. And depending on the conservative nature of your church, there could be a lot of those students that have cell phones. And then a lot of students that don't, you know? And so like my main thing with hybrid ministry is trying to intersect people where they are. And I think the cell phone is just a great spot to try and aim for. Right. But what about those middle schoolers that are young and like don't have cell phones? And so.
Ronald (00:57)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Nick Clason (01:21)
I'm excited to have this conversation with you because you as a lifelong middle school youth pastor and host of podcasts, like you and a dad of daughters in that age age range, right? Like I want to hear your perspective because I'm it feels to me and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but it feels to me like middle schoolers kind of run the gamut. Some that don't even have access to any technology and then some that are just all in way too much. You're a little scared for their well-being, you know.
Ronald (01:29)
EW.
Yeah.
Absolutely, and you're right because their parents also run the gambit too. So for people listening who don't know, I have in my house four teenage daughters. I have 18 year old senior graduating this year, then I have a freshman, a seventh grader, and a fifth grader. So I've got everybody.
Nick Clason (01:54)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, you're right there.
Ronald (02:15)
And my elementary school kid who's in fifth grade, Ruth is telling me about like her friends who have cell phones and have had cell phones since like third and fourth grade. Like that's just been their reality. They have always had a phone. Think of the iPad kid who just like parents are like, yeah, whatever here, right? Here's just the next step up. Go ahead and have a phone. Don't care. Put whatever on it. And then like,
Nick Clason (02:42)
So
Ronald (02:45)
me and my family, this has become our rule, it was our rule with our first, you get your cell phone at the end of fifth grade. And so, and we'll talk a little bit more about this too because I have really appreciated what other parents like told me and helped me figure out. That cell phone only can do a couple things, right? And we stair-step eventually through it.
Nick Clason (02:54)
Okay.
Hmm. So as we like lean into this, first of all, everyone should know, no matter where you're listening, hit the link down below, because Ronald and I put together kind of like a collaborative hybrid ministry for middle schoolers kind of resource. So take it, download it, use it, share it with your parents, whatever you want to do. But especially like here we are post-Christmas, and isn't it so true that most middle schoolers
Ronald (03:30)
Use it.
Nick Clason (03:41)
there's a lot of technology that's given under the tree. And so this is just a very timely conversation, right? Like let's talk about technology use and middle schoolers. give us, like, why you start there where you did a little bit, like dive a little deeper into that. Fifth grader, that's your rule. Is that your recommendation? Do you take it, would you recommend parents take that on more of a case by case type basis? What's the wisdom principle in that, or is it?
Ronald (03:44)
100%.
yeah.
Nick Clason (04:08)
you know, hard and fast, like, yeah, as soon as they're done with fifth grade, they're mature enough to have a cell phone or like, what's your, how do you make that decision? I guess, or how would you coach parents to make that decision?
Ronald (04:17)
So what we went through and what was kind of like the deciding factor for us is, I live in San Antonio and so we have, once my kid was finished with elementary school, our oldest, she had friends who were splitting up into like the four winds, right? And we wanted to give her a way to stay connected to them and so we were like, okay, we're going to give you a phone, but.
Nick Clason (04:36)
Mm.
Yeah.
Ronald (04:46)
Big stipulations. We had it, it's an iPhone, so we locked it down pretty tight to where she couldn't download any apps without requesting permission, so that's a big deal. There's no browser on it. So in fact, my high schooler just got a browser this year for ninth grade. to put that in, yeah, no browser.
Nick Clason (04:51)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Okay, so that's like all of middle school. Yeah.
Ronald (05:16)
Specifically also, no social media. She actually also just got her first social media, which was Pinterest. you, stair steppin' man. That's a stair step. But that, okay, here's what I tell parents, and here's what I have told parents and what I am taking through. Imagine a cell phone like a car, right? You are, even for the visual.
Nick Clason (05:25)
Okay. Which, does that even count? know, like that's one of those fringe ones.
For sure.
Mm-hmm.
Ronald (05:46)
You're giving keys away to your kid. for the audio too. on. There we go. Little foley. Little foley for our audio listeners. You don't just give the Ferrari away to a 16 year old or a 15 year old and say, right, go figure that out. guess you know more about this than I do. Like, no, no.
Nick Clason (05:46)
There you go.
Those are car keys, people. Ronald's jingling them. We'll narrate this.
Yeah.
Ronald (06:15)
you start that kid backing in and out of your driveway in the beater, right? And so we took that principle and applied it to our kids having cell phones. So like, okay, you're going to get like a not great iPhones, not the brand new one. It's going to be like, the one with the one camera. Yeah. The one camera type deal. And we're going to stair step you through this. Well, that's just an Android, Nick. That's what you.
Nick Clason (06:30)
Mm-hmm. me down. Yeah.
Maybe some crack screens like my Android here.
The glass is apparently weaker.
Ronald (06:45)
That's fine. No, and so we've stair-stepped. so my seventh grader who has a phone, also has a phone in middle school, has a phone but doesn't have, again, social media doesn't have a browser. And we also put like a stipulation on where the phone can go. My girls, I live in a two-story house. All the bedrooms are upstairs. No phones upstairs. Like that's a rule for us. And so when ...
Nick Clason (07:11)
Great rule, by the way. I approve. Yeah.
Ronald (07:14)
When it's time to go to bed, the charger's downstairs and they have to charge their phone downstairs. No phones at the dinner table. In fact, even it's no phones after dinner. So we say, hey, get it done after dinner, no phones. Those are just like things that we have done as a family to be like, hey, here's the deal. We are going to give you permission that expands with responsibility. And then also cool thing as a parent, my kids don't have a cell phone after supper.
Nick Clason (07:18)
Yeah, good.
Mmm. It's good. It's good.
Mm-hmm.
Ronald (07:44)
So if I'm just scrolling on my cell phone after supper, they're like, hey dad, what are you doing? I'm like, yeah, you're right. I need to be off my phone. I need to pay attention to you.
Nick Clason (07:46)
They're calling you out.
That's so smart. That's just like built in accountability right there, for sure. Yeah. And you know, the thing that I, I try and tell parents as well in our context and other youth ministry avenues and whatever, honestly, just like a lot of times the question is what product or what resource do you use to like monitor like your kids screen usage and all those types of things. And rest assured, there are a million different like resources and things out there that you can use and you can lean into.
Ronald (07:57)
It's huge.
Absolutely.
Nick Clason (08:22)
But at the end of the day, the goal is for that thing not to become your kid's parent. The goal is for you to be the parent of it. Right. And so I love your rules because those guidelines are things that you've put in place. Like you can lock down an iPhone all you want, but you can still abuse it if it's in the room and they're on it until way after bedtime or you know, the no, no phones after dinner thing. Like there can be indiscriminate use or just like mindless use of it. And so.
Ronald (08:50)
Mm-hmm.
Nick Clason (08:51)
You're being proactive and in on top of it, you know, and that's, that's what I really like and appreciate because that's the tech. There's always a workaround in the technology. That's what I've found. Like there's no foolproof piece of technology. It's always a work.
Ronald (09:02)
Heck yeah.
No, I figured it out when I was dealing dial-up modem internet and my parents had the protective things when I was in high school. like, I can figure this out, you know? So no amount of blocking software or things like that will get around actual discipleship of your kids. Because you are a person who is imperfect, just like your kids. They're gonna make mistakes. So what do do?
Nick Clason (09:10)
Yeah.
Exactly. Yeah.
Yeah, for sure.
That's it. That's it. That's good. That's good. Let's shift gears a little bit then. Let's talk about your, how you've noticed technology, cell phones, whatever, within actual confines of youth ministry. Not just, you you parenting your kids with it, but like, what's it like navigating? Cause in a lot of cases, like we said, you got kids that don't even have it at all versus kids who are like using and fully on like all the social apps. So.
Ronald (09:36)
Like, how do you figure that out? Big deal.
Yeah.
Nick Clason (10:03)
What was your typical practice as a middle school pastor with technology?
Ronald (10:10)
Yeah, of it was just being open about that being a potential barrier between you and other people. And the other thing was not, because I was in a real conservative context, there was almost like some judgment to kids who did have a phone, which was really funny. And so I had to like stamp, yeah, I'm glad you get it. So.
Nick Clason (10:28)
Mm
Yeah, same here by the way, so I can relate to that.
Ronald (10:39)
On the one hand, whenever I had a parent being like, you know what, my kid just say that they don't connect very, they don't have any friends in youth ministry. And I'm looking at their kid, I so remember this one specific instance of girl, phone here, face down, and even her hair like covered the side of her face to where all it was, and she was in a corner on her phone looking down at it and not engaging with the room.
Nick Clason (10:59)
Yeah.
Ronald (11:07)
And then like I got a email three weeks later being like, my daughter is just not making any friends. I'm like, yeah, no joke. I've tried. And so trying to have a conversation with students where it's both not being judgmental, but also making sure they're aware of like, hey guys, if you feel lonely, one of the reasons in a list might be you're on your phone too much and you're missing what's going on right in front of you.
Nick Clason (11:13)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Ronald (11:36)
you care more about your online persona or the next funny video than you do your friend who's literally sitting three feet away from you. so trying to navigate that well was always the thing. And so that would just be like application. But on the other hand, you can do that in really great ways to be like, Hey guys, if you've got a phone, text a friend verse right now, someone who's not in this room, text an encouraging verse.
Nick Clason (11:52)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Ronald (12:03)
so that you can be a light in their life, right? It's both and, right? So I don't like telling a kid, hey, cell phones are the devil, you should never have one. And I don't like telling parents, just give your kid a phone and don't worry about it, because it's absolutely both and.
Nick Clason (12:08)
Yeah. Yeah.
Right.
Yeah, yeah. Well, and that's honestly, that's exactly like what I feel like my entire podcast is predicated on. what this started out of, I don't know, I guess like a moment of frustration and a little bit of like an inflection point. like we'd gone pretty hard in on like digital ministry during COVID. I was working in Chicago and so it was necessitated, like it had to happen.
But then we found some really fun and cool wins out of doing ministry in a digital sort of context and some opportunities that actually opened up for us that weren't available to us doing ministry pre-COVID. And so as we were all sort of coming back from, you know, restrictions and lockdown and all those types of things, we were then trying to navigate this like tension between like how much should we swing the pendulum, right? And so my whole, like my whole thing, like the whole name of this like hybrid ministry is like,
Ronald (13:08)
Yeah.
Nick Clason (13:13)
It's not just your digital, but it's not just your in-person. It's kind of that both and, and I think in all of life, it's easier for us. We like to draw hard and hard and fast lines and be like, cell phones are bad. So you should not, but I like your, you know, your Ferrari example because you have to work, you have to work up to it. You don't just earn it immediately. And so like my contention is as much as we, especially older generations want to lament cell phones and how difficult they are for
ministry and connection and they are like in some cases they definitely are, but like there's also a lot of good, you know, that comes out of them. your friend a verse or group chats. Like group chats are such a simple thing that didn't exist. Was it 10 years ago? 15 years ago? Like even if you have people with Android, like group chats are still a way to stay connected, you know, to one another. but you know, so like that's, that's kind of like my contention is like
Ronald (13:54)
Mm-hmm.
No, you can't connect with people with Androids over group chat. It doesn't happen.
Nick Clason (14:11)
we have to help students navigate this well and not just settle for the easy answer of just throw your cell phone in a river. It's terrible and it's the enemy. And if we think that, then why are we getting our kids these things for Christmas? It's like, I just need to call them at practice. Okay, but now you've opened Pandora's box and that's not necessarily a bad thing, not condemning any parent for doing that. I'm just saying now we have to help them navigate that well, both at the parent level and also while we're like...
Ronald (14:20)
Yeah. Yeah.
Absolutely.
Nick Clason (14:40)
navigating and managing that within like our student ministries.
Ronald (14:44)
Sure, and it's just as important as showing your kid what you version can do and be like, hey, you know what's really cool about you version? It's a Bible reading plan. Let's you and me do it together, parent and kid. Or, hey, as a ministry, we're gonna do this month long Bible reading plan. That's on your phone. Yeah, it's absolutely being able to use the tools that are available to us, because we could have said the same thing about lamenting the invention of the car, taking away our, aw man, we're not as
Nick Clason (14:50)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Course privileges.
Ronald (15:14)
connected. So yeah, and since this is the middle school ministry podcast too, it matters to a middle school student what you model to them. Because they take that to heart. so my whole thing was not trying to judge those who had a cell phone. But yeah, absolutely. If they're going to be on YouTube,
Nick Clason (15:22)
Mm-hmm.
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Ronald (15:44)
watching you know Mr. Beast do whatever Mr. Beast does then I kind of also want them to hear from their youth pastor every now and then and so that's an easy thing to do like you pastor to take your phone spend five minutes making five reels and then or five shorts for YouTube and be like hey look my kids are gonna get some encouragement for me this week that's it's out there
Nick Clason (15:51)
Why not? Yeah, exactly.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I absolutely. And one thing I've noticed and I've seen in like studies and stuff here recently is like, you know, Gen X boomers even have all sort of like settled in on Facebook millennials. Are you millennial, Ronald? Yeah. All right. Me too. Me too. Instagram, right? It's kind of like millennials favorite platform. Gen Z sort of like made tick tock its thing. We're noticing
Ronald (16:22)
yes, and how dare you.
Mm-hmm.
Nick Clason (16:34)
Jen Alpha's making YouTube kind of their spot. And I, yeah. And I even read that it, for Jen Alpha, it's taking the place of Google as its preferred search engine. And so what an opportunity for us like to be on there, you know, and for middle school kids to see us, to see their youth pastor, to maybe even see themselves or their friends from youth group. You know, if you post shorts, reels, all that type of stuff on there, like
Ronald (16:36)
Yeah, it is YouTube.
Absolutely.
Nick Clason (17:01)
You're so right. Like it's such a fantastic opportunity. it really, just exactly what my whole goal with hybrid is like showing up where they are. Like if they're on YouTube, how cool is it? Like they can get on there and they can watch MrBeast who's all across the country and also their church.
Ronald (17:17)
Well, and to even use the platform like it's currently being used then, how cool would it be if your kid typed in how to study the Bible and they got an answer from their youth pastor immediately? Like you already had a five minute video on how to study the Bible that you had prepared for your kids and it was there, right? Because that's how they're using the platform.
Nick Clason (17:30)
Right? Yeah. Exactly.
Exactly. Yeah, it's not just like, it's not just there for you as a youth pastor to have another channel for announcements, though you can be, but I would, what I encourage people to do is use the platforms for their intended uses. And so if you're going to use it for a thing that you think is what your ministry needs, but it's not in alignment with the intended use of the platform, you're not going to see the same types of results than if you actually use it for what it's being used for, which is answering specific questions.
Ronald (17:46)
Mm-hmm.
Yep. Yep.
Nick Clason (18:09)
And frankly, entertainment, right? And maybe like a little bit of inspiration too. So that's good. So what would you say to a middle school youth pastor or any youth pastor out there, like who's got people in their church like you and like me who are a little leery about cell phone, cell phone usage, middle school. Like what's the, how would you coach them, you know, to either lean in and have that conversation or.
Ronald (18:26)
Mm-hmm.
Nick Clason (18:38)
with parents or how to like manage maybe some of that potential like turbulent waters of, you know, angry parents who think cell phones are evil and of the devil.
Ronald (18:48)
You know what's funny is when I first started in ministry, there was a big deal where we said, don't bring any cell phones to camp. And then there was a really turbulent season in between when we arrived to my kid as a parent saying, my kid will bring their phone to camp or they're not going.
Nick Clason (18:58)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
yeah.
Ronald (19:18)
And so navigating that in between, I think there are far fewer parents who are going to say that a cell phone is evil. They might be saying, my kid has to have one because I need to be connected and know what's up with my kid at all times.
Nick Clason (19:27)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Ronald (19:35)
which is a different type of unhealth, that's fine. We can go from there. To help a youth pastor navigate the cell phones. Cell phones are bad, right? A cell phone is the same, to use the car analogy. It's a tool. can take you someplace great. It can take you someplace awful. And if you want to be the youth pastor who's like, no cell phones in the youth room. They go in this box over here and we use paper Bible still. Like that's fine.
Nick Clason (19:45)
Yeah.
Yeah, you can do that. Yeah, yeah.
Ronald (20:04)
if you explain that, right? As long as you're saying, why we do this as a ministry, this is the vision, this is what we're trying to accomplish. Do that, but you're going to have parents who, when you go to camp, when you go to retreat, they're gonna push back on you and be like, hey, my kid is going to take their cell phone. I don't care what their rules are.
Nick Clason (20:28)
Yeah. Well, like when did you get a cell phone? Like how old were you when you got a cell phone? Yeah.
Ronald (20:31)
I was 16 and I got a cell phone because my parents were afraid that I was going to get lost when I started driving by myself. So I got my dad's secretary's old Nokia phone.
Nick Clason (20:45)
But so you're 16, right? And now you're the type of parent in that particular age bracket and demographic, you're sending your daughter's kids to camp. like that's all, know, cell phones from the age of 16 for you and on up. Like I was about the same, you know, so here in a couple of years when my kids are old enough to go to camp, I only, that's my like comfort zone, you know? And so like I get their scary stuff on it, but
Ronald (20:56)
Yeah. Yeah.
Nick Clason (21:14)
It's also gonna, it's not, you're not never gonna give your kid a cell phone. So how do we, and that's my thing, how do we help lean in and teach them the good things of it? Put good, good rules and guidelines and guardrails all around it so that you're hopefully protecting your kids and having conversations, you know, with it.
Ronald (21:25)
Yeah.
It's exactly that. It's continued conversations with kids. And even as a parent being okay to say, these are our non-cell phone times to where we're going to talk. I know parents who like to say no phones in the car because that 15 minute, 20 minute drive can be like, hey, we can actually have a conversation as we drive around. But just having conversations about your phone usage. Hey, who are you following? Hey.
Nick Clason (21:35)
That's it, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, so true.
Mm-hmm.
Ronald (22:00)
I or even telling like I will do this with my girls. I'll send them goofy videos and goofy memes Not because I think they're the funniest thing in the world But I'm trying to connect with them on their level like to my own kids and so like It's funny because they don't have social media what I'm doing is screen recording a funny reel I saw and then sending that to them as a message
Nick Clason (22:09)
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah dude. Yeah, for sure.
Bro, that's so committed, but I love it. Like that's, you you're like, we're not doing the social media thing, but I still want you to see this thing that I saw on social media and it's funny. So you'll like it. It's great.
Ronald (22:34)
Yeah, and I want you to know that I'm thinking of you throughout the day. I want you to laugh. This is a funny thing. And yeah, phones aren't the devil. Yeah, so it's trying to continually have a conversation with your kid. And even where you're saying, hopefully they're coming to you and being like, my friend is being dumb in the group chat. They go, okay, what did they say? Talking through what's good to text, what's not good to text, how...
Nick Clason (22:43)
That's great,
Ronald (23:02)
inflection matters and be like, Hey, I know you hate it, but this might be a FaceTime moment because it sounds like you guys are not seeing each other texting back and forth. Maybe you need to like actually talk.
Nick Clason (23:12)
Yeah. Yeah, man, that's so good. Well, anything else, Ronald, before we hang this sucker up?
Ronald (23:19)
I think the most important thing a parent can do with their kid and having a phone is have some guidelines and have lots of conversations. I think if you stick into those two places, like you're gonna be in a spot where maybe sometimes it's uncomfortable, maybe it's sometimes you're giving a little bit more, you're giving more unearned responsibility away than you're ready for, but like that's parenting as a whole. You don't want your 18 year old kid.
to get a cell phone and all social media all at once and be like, well, now I'm gonna learn everything. It's much, I think it's a much better experience for you and the kid if you walk them through the process together with you in the driver's seat sometimes and them in the driver's seat sometimes.
Nick Clason (24:04)
That's good. Yeah, actually, if anyone's listening to this, watching this like here live, like in the next several weeks, like that's what I'm doing on my podcast is I'm doing like some parent and kid kind of like tech talks. And so they're like aimed for youth pastors to like curate or have that conversation with like some downloadable worksheets and stuff like that that they can share. because I think that's, that's the key in all of this. Like it's, it's easier to draw a line in the sand and be like, no, this, like this is it. We're not doing that, but like we,
Ronald (24:16)
Mmm, yeah.
Nick Clason (24:34)
That's the phone has not allowed us to do that. It's not going away. So instead we got to figure out how do we lean into it into what's uncomfortable and maybe like uncertain waters, like lean into it to just open up that continued kind of conversation thing. So I think that's, that's so good. So, yo, if you're listening here for me on my channel, go follow everything Ronald's doing, middle school ministry podcast. It's dope. It's all about middle schoolers and he's got dope co-hosts.
Ronald (24:48)
Absolutely.
Yeah. I just want to thank everybody for listening to my podcast, the hybrid ministry podcast. Thank you so much. That's really great. No, and if you're, if you're listening to this from middle school ministry podcast, you should definitely go check out what Nick Clayson is doing over in hybrid ministry. Some really good stuff, some really helpful things to carry the conversation forward when it comes to the digital world and youth ministry.
Nick Clason (25:05)
that you've taken over.
Yeah, no, I love it. So good. And like I said, we both collabed on a little resource. It's free in both of our show notes, so go grab that. that's it, man. We'll talk to guys next time.
Ronald (25:34)
See you around.
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By Nick Clason✏️Collaborative Worksheet
https://share.hsforms.com/1t_3g3O3XTBqI-vq1Orq7ngnumis
🎧 Ronald's Podcast
https://podcast.downloadyouthministry.com/category/middle-school-ministry/
DESCRIPTION
In this conversation, Nick Clason and Ronald Long discuss the challenges and opportunities of youth ministry in the digital age, particularly focusing on the role of technology and cell phones among middle schoolers. They explore the importance of engagement in content creation, the necessity of guidelines for responsible phone use, and the balance between digital and in-person ministry. The discussion emphasizes the need for open conversations between parents and children regarding technology, as well as collaborative resources for youth pastors to navigate these challenges effectively.
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⌚TIMECODES
00:00 The Role of Technology in Middle School Ministry
04:50 Guidelines for Responsible Cell Phone Use
09:50 Balancing Digital and In-Person Youth Ministry
14:53 Encouraging Healthy Conversations About Technology
20:01 Collaborative Resources for Youth Pastors
TRANSCRIPT
Nick Clason (00:00)
What's up everybody? I'm Nick and this is.
Ronald (00:04)
Hey guys, I'm Ronald Long. How you doing?
Nick Clason (00:06)
We're excited to be here, Ronald. This is a weird thing. This is your show, this is my show, this is our show.
Ronald (00:08)
we are excited to be here.
Whose show is it really? That's a question.
Nick Clason (00:15)
That is the question that people want to know the answer to.
Ronald (00:19)
Did I just take over hybrid youth ministry? I think I did. I did. great. This is mine now. And yours? You get middle school ministry. Yeah, this is it. Tell Andrea. no.
Nick Clason (00:23)
You did, you did. Yeah. Welcome. Well, actually, yeah, and I'm taking over middle school. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you have exactly. Bye, Andrea. Bye. Anyway, you know, Ronald, it's interesting and I'm excited to have this conversation because probably the biggest, one of the biggest pushbacks I get when I'm pushing stuff like in my hybrid ministry, just idea and whatnot is what about middle schoolers?
especially like in our context, we don't get middle schoolers until like, or we get them at sixth grade, which there's an inflection point. And depending on the conservative nature of your church, there could be a lot of those students that have cell phones. And then a lot of students that don't, you know? And so like my main thing with hybrid ministry is trying to intersect people where they are. And I think the cell phone is just a great spot to try and aim for. Right. But what about those middle schoolers that are young and like don't have cell phones? And so.
Ronald (00:57)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Nick Clason (01:21)
I'm excited to have this conversation with you because you as a lifelong middle school youth pastor and host of podcasts, like you and a dad of daughters in that age age range, right? Like I want to hear your perspective because I'm it feels to me and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but it feels to me like middle schoolers kind of run the gamut. Some that don't even have access to any technology and then some that are just all in way too much. You're a little scared for their well-being, you know.
Ronald (01:29)
EW.
Yeah.
Absolutely, and you're right because their parents also run the gambit too. So for people listening who don't know, I have in my house four teenage daughters. I have 18 year old senior graduating this year, then I have a freshman, a seventh grader, and a fifth grader. So I've got everybody.
Nick Clason (01:54)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, you're right there.
Ronald (02:15)
And my elementary school kid who's in fifth grade, Ruth is telling me about like her friends who have cell phones and have had cell phones since like third and fourth grade. Like that's just been their reality. They have always had a phone. Think of the iPad kid who just like parents are like, yeah, whatever here, right? Here's just the next step up. Go ahead and have a phone. Don't care. Put whatever on it. And then like,
Nick Clason (02:42)
So
Ronald (02:45)
me and my family, this has become our rule, it was our rule with our first, you get your cell phone at the end of fifth grade. And so, and we'll talk a little bit more about this too because I have really appreciated what other parents like told me and helped me figure out. That cell phone only can do a couple things, right? And we stair-step eventually through it.
Nick Clason (02:54)
Okay.
Hmm. So as we like lean into this, first of all, everyone should know, no matter where you're listening, hit the link down below, because Ronald and I put together kind of like a collaborative hybrid ministry for middle schoolers kind of resource. So take it, download it, use it, share it with your parents, whatever you want to do. But especially like here we are post-Christmas, and isn't it so true that most middle schoolers
Ronald (03:30)
Use it.
Nick Clason (03:41)
there's a lot of technology that's given under the tree. And so this is just a very timely conversation, right? Like let's talk about technology use and middle schoolers. give us, like, why you start there where you did a little bit, like dive a little deeper into that. Fifth grader, that's your rule. Is that your recommendation? Do you take it, would you recommend parents take that on more of a case by case type basis? What's the wisdom principle in that, or is it?
Ronald (03:44)
100%.
yeah.
Nick Clason (04:08)
you know, hard and fast, like, yeah, as soon as they're done with fifth grade, they're mature enough to have a cell phone or like, what's your, how do you make that decision? I guess, or how would you coach parents to make that decision?
Ronald (04:17)
So what we went through and what was kind of like the deciding factor for us is, I live in San Antonio and so we have, once my kid was finished with elementary school, our oldest, she had friends who were splitting up into like the four winds, right? And we wanted to give her a way to stay connected to them and so we were like, okay, we're going to give you a phone, but.
Nick Clason (04:36)
Mm.
Yeah.
Ronald (04:46)
Big stipulations. We had it, it's an iPhone, so we locked it down pretty tight to where she couldn't download any apps without requesting permission, so that's a big deal. There's no browser on it. So in fact, my high schooler just got a browser this year for ninth grade. to put that in, yeah, no browser.
Nick Clason (04:51)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Okay, so that's like all of middle school. Yeah.
Ronald (05:16)
Specifically also, no social media. She actually also just got her first social media, which was Pinterest. you, stair steppin' man. That's a stair step. But that, okay, here's what I tell parents, and here's what I have told parents and what I am taking through. Imagine a cell phone like a car, right? You are, even for the visual.
Nick Clason (05:25)
Okay. Which, does that even count? know, like that's one of those fringe ones.
For sure.
Mm-hmm.
Ronald (05:46)
You're giving keys away to your kid. for the audio too. on. There we go. Little foley. Little foley for our audio listeners. You don't just give the Ferrari away to a 16 year old or a 15 year old and say, right, go figure that out. guess you know more about this than I do. Like, no, no.
Nick Clason (05:46)
There you go.
Those are car keys, people. Ronald's jingling them. We'll narrate this.
Yeah.
Ronald (06:15)
you start that kid backing in and out of your driveway in the beater, right? And so we took that principle and applied it to our kids having cell phones. So like, okay, you're going to get like a not great iPhones, not the brand new one. It's going to be like, the one with the one camera. Yeah. The one camera type deal. And we're going to stair step you through this. Well, that's just an Android, Nick. That's what you.
Nick Clason (06:30)
Mm-hmm. me down. Yeah.
Maybe some crack screens like my Android here.
The glass is apparently weaker.
Ronald (06:45)
That's fine. No, and so we've stair-stepped. so my seventh grader who has a phone, also has a phone in middle school, has a phone but doesn't have, again, social media doesn't have a browser. And we also put like a stipulation on where the phone can go. My girls, I live in a two-story house. All the bedrooms are upstairs. No phones upstairs. Like that's a rule for us. And so when ...
Nick Clason (07:11)
Great rule, by the way. I approve. Yeah.
Ronald (07:14)
When it's time to go to bed, the charger's downstairs and they have to charge their phone downstairs. No phones at the dinner table. In fact, even it's no phones after dinner. So we say, hey, get it done after dinner, no phones. Those are just like things that we have done as a family to be like, hey, here's the deal. We are going to give you permission that expands with responsibility. And then also cool thing as a parent, my kids don't have a cell phone after supper.
Nick Clason (07:18)
Yeah, good.
Mmm. It's good. It's good.
Mm-hmm.
Ronald (07:44)
So if I'm just scrolling on my cell phone after supper, they're like, hey dad, what are you doing? I'm like, yeah, you're right. I need to be off my phone. I need to pay attention to you.
Nick Clason (07:46)
They're calling you out.
That's so smart. That's just like built in accountability right there, for sure. Yeah. And you know, the thing that I, I try and tell parents as well in our context and other youth ministry avenues and whatever, honestly, just like a lot of times the question is what product or what resource do you use to like monitor like your kids screen usage and all those types of things. And rest assured, there are a million different like resources and things out there that you can use and you can lean into.
Ronald (07:57)
It's huge.
Absolutely.
Nick Clason (08:22)
But at the end of the day, the goal is for that thing not to become your kid's parent. The goal is for you to be the parent of it. Right. And so I love your rules because those guidelines are things that you've put in place. Like you can lock down an iPhone all you want, but you can still abuse it if it's in the room and they're on it until way after bedtime or you know, the no, no phones after dinner thing. Like there can be indiscriminate use or just like mindless use of it. And so.
Ronald (08:50)
Mm-hmm.
Nick Clason (08:51)
You're being proactive and in on top of it, you know, and that's, that's what I really like and appreciate because that's the tech. There's always a workaround in the technology. That's what I've found. Like there's no foolproof piece of technology. It's always a work.
Ronald (09:02)
Heck yeah.
No, I figured it out when I was dealing dial-up modem internet and my parents had the protective things when I was in high school. like, I can figure this out, you know? So no amount of blocking software or things like that will get around actual discipleship of your kids. Because you are a person who is imperfect, just like your kids. They're gonna make mistakes. So what do do?
Nick Clason (09:10)
Yeah.
Exactly. Yeah.
Yeah, for sure.
That's it. That's it. That's good. That's good. Let's shift gears a little bit then. Let's talk about your, how you've noticed technology, cell phones, whatever, within actual confines of youth ministry. Not just, you you parenting your kids with it, but like, what's it like navigating? Cause in a lot of cases, like we said, you got kids that don't even have it at all versus kids who are like using and fully on like all the social apps. So.
Ronald (09:36)
Like, how do you figure that out? Big deal.
Yeah.
Nick Clason (10:03)
What was your typical practice as a middle school pastor with technology?
Ronald (10:10)
Yeah, of it was just being open about that being a potential barrier between you and other people. And the other thing was not, because I was in a real conservative context, there was almost like some judgment to kids who did have a phone, which was really funny. And so I had to like stamp, yeah, I'm glad you get it. So.
Nick Clason (10:28)
Mm
Yeah, same here by the way, so I can relate to that.
Ronald (10:39)
On the one hand, whenever I had a parent being like, you know what, my kid just say that they don't connect very, they don't have any friends in youth ministry. And I'm looking at their kid, I so remember this one specific instance of girl, phone here, face down, and even her hair like covered the side of her face to where all it was, and she was in a corner on her phone looking down at it and not engaging with the room.
Nick Clason (10:59)
Yeah.
Ronald (11:07)
And then like I got a email three weeks later being like, my daughter is just not making any friends. I'm like, yeah, no joke. I've tried. And so trying to have a conversation with students where it's both not being judgmental, but also making sure they're aware of like, hey guys, if you feel lonely, one of the reasons in a list might be you're on your phone too much and you're missing what's going on right in front of you.
Nick Clason (11:13)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Ronald (11:36)
you care more about your online persona or the next funny video than you do your friend who's literally sitting three feet away from you. so trying to navigate that well was always the thing. And so that would just be like application. But on the other hand, you can do that in really great ways to be like, Hey guys, if you've got a phone, text a friend verse right now, someone who's not in this room, text an encouraging verse.
Nick Clason (11:52)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Ronald (12:03)
so that you can be a light in their life, right? It's both and, right? So I don't like telling a kid, hey, cell phones are the devil, you should never have one. And I don't like telling parents, just give your kid a phone and don't worry about it, because it's absolutely both and.
Nick Clason (12:08)
Yeah. Yeah.
Right.
Yeah, yeah. Well, and that's honestly, that's exactly like what I feel like my entire podcast is predicated on. what this started out of, I don't know, I guess like a moment of frustration and a little bit of like an inflection point. like we'd gone pretty hard in on like digital ministry during COVID. I was working in Chicago and so it was necessitated, like it had to happen.
But then we found some really fun and cool wins out of doing ministry in a digital sort of context and some opportunities that actually opened up for us that weren't available to us doing ministry pre-COVID. And so as we were all sort of coming back from, you know, restrictions and lockdown and all those types of things, we were then trying to navigate this like tension between like how much should we swing the pendulum, right? And so my whole, like my whole thing, like the whole name of this like hybrid ministry is like,
Ronald (13:08)
Yeah.
Nick Clason (13:13)
It's not just your digital, but it's not just your in-person. It's kind of that both and, and I think in all of life, it's easier for us. We like to draw hard and hard and fast lines and be like, cell phones are bad. So you should not, but I like your, you know, your Ferrari example because you have to work, you have to work up to it. You don't just earn it immediately. And so like my contention is as much as we, especially older generations want to lament cell phones and how difficult they are for
ministry and connection and they are like in some cases they definitely are, but like there's also a lot of good, you know, that comes out of them. your friend a verse or group chats. Like group chats are such a simple thing that didn't exist. Was it 10 years ago? 15 years ago? Like even if you have people with Android, like group chats are still a way to stay connected, you know, to one another. but you know, so like that's, that's kind of like my contention is like
Ronald (13:54)
Mm-hmm.
No, you can't connect with people with Androids over group chat. It doesn't happen.
Nick Clason (14:11)
we have to help students navigate this well and not just settle for the easy answer of just throw your cell phone in a river. It's terrible and it's the enemy. And if we think that, then why are we getting our kids these things for Christmas? It's like, I just need to call them at practice. Okay, but now you've opened Pandora's box and that's not necessarily a bad thing, not condemning any parent for doing that. I'm just saying now we have to help them navigate that well, both at the parent level and also while we're like...
Ronald (14:20)
Yeah. Yeah.
Absolutely.
Nick Clason (14:40)
navigating and managing that within like our student ministries.
Ronald (14:44)
Sure, and it's just as important as showing your kid what you version can do and be like, hey, you know what's really cool about you version? It's a Bible reading plan. Let's you and me do it together, parent and kid. Or, hey, as a ministry, we're gonna do this month long Bible reading plan. That's on your phone. Yeah, it's absolutely being able to use the tools that are available to us, because we could have said the same thing about lamenting the invention of the car, taking away our, aw man, we're not as
Nick Clason (14:50)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Course privileges.
Ronald (15:14)
connected. So yeah, and since this is the middle school ministry podcast too, it matters to a middle school student what you model to them. Because they take that to heart. so my whole thing was not trying to judge those who had a cell phone. But yeah, absolutely. If they're going to be on YouTube,
Nick Clason (15:22)
Mm-hmm.
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Ronald (15:44)
watching you know Mr. Beast do whatever Mr. Beast does then I kind of also want them to hear from their youth pastor every now and then and so that's an easy thing to do like you pastor to take your phone spend five minutes making five reels and then or five shorts for YouTube and be like hey look my kids are gonna get some encouragement for me this week that's it's out there
Nick Clason (15:51)
Why not? Yeah, exactly.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I absolutely. And one thing I've noticed and I've seen in like studies and stuff here recently is like, you know, Gen X boomers even have all sort of like settled in on Facebook millennials. Are you millennial, Ronald? Yeah. All right. Me too. Me too. Instagram, right? It's kind of like millennials favorite platform. Gen Z sort of like made tick tock its thing. We're noticing
Ronald (16:22)
yes, and how dare you.
Mm-hmm.
Nick Clason (16:34)
Jen Alpha's making YouTube kind of their spot. And I, yeah. And I even read that it, for Jen Alpha, it's taking the place of Google as its preferred search engine. And so what an opportunity for us like to be on there, you know, and for middle school kids to see us, to see their youth pastor, to maybe even see themselves or their friends from youth group. You know, if you post shorts, reels, all that type of stuff on there, like
Ronald (16:36)
Yeah, it is YouTube.
Absolutely.
Nick Clason (17:01)
You're so right. Like it's such a fantastic opportunity. it really, just exactly what my whole goal with hybrid is like showing up where they are. Like if they're on YouTube, how cool is it? Like they can get on there and they can watch MrBeast who's all across the country and also their church.
Ronald (17:17)
Well, and to even use the platform like it's currently being used then, how cool would it be if your kid typed in how to study the Bible and they got an answer from their youth pastor immediately? Like you already had a five minute video on how to study the Bible that you had prepared for your kids and it was there, right? Because that's how they're using the platform.
Nick Clason (17:30)
Right? Yeah. Exactly.
Exactly. Yeah, it's not just like, it's not just there for you as a youth pastor to have another channel for announcements, though you can be, but I would, what I encourage people to do is use the platforms for their intended uses. And so if you're going to use it for a thing that you think is what your ministry needs, but it's not in alignment with the intended use of the platform, you're not going to see the same types of results than if you actually use it for what it's being used for, which is answering specific questions.
Ronald (17:46)
Mm-hmm.
Yep. Yep.
Nick Clason (18:09)
And frankly, entertainment, right? And maybe like a little bit of inspiration too. So that's good. So what would you say to a middle school youth pastor or any youth pastor out there, like who's got people in their church like you and like me who are a little leery about cell phone, cell phone usage, middle school. Like what's the, how would you coach them, you know, to either lean in and have that conversation or.
Ronald (18:26)
Mm-hmm.
Nick Clason (18:38)
with parents or how to like manage maybe some of that potential like turbulent waters of, you know, angry parents who think cell phones are evil and of the devil.
Ronald (18:48)
You know what's funny is when I first started in ministry, there was a big deal where we said, don't bring any cell phones to camp. And then there was a really turbulent season in between when we arrived to my kid as a parent saying, my kid will bring their phone to camp or they're not going.
Nick Clason (18:58)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
yeah.
Ronald (19:18)
And so navigating that in between, I think there are far fewer parents who are going to say that a cell phone is evil. They might be saying, my kid has to have one because I need to be connected and know what's up with my kid at all times.
Nick Clason (19:27)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Ronald (19:35)
which is a different type of unhealth, that's fine. We can go from there. To help a youth pastor navigate the cell phones. Cell phones are bad, right? A cell phone is the same, to use the car analogy. It's a tool. can take you someplace great. It can take you someplace awful. And if you want to be the youth pastor who's like, no cell phones in the youth room. They go in this box over here and we use paper Bible still. Like that's fine.
Nick Clason (19:45)
Yeah.
Yeah, you can do that. Yeah, yeah.
Ronald (20:04)
if you explain that, right? As long as you're saying, why we do this as a ministry, this is the vision, this is what we're trying to accomplish. Do that, but you're going to have parents who, when you go to camp, when you go to retreat, they're gonna push back on you and be like, hey, my kid is going to take their cell phone. I don't care what their rules are.
Nick Clason (20:28)
Yeah. Well, like when did you get a cell phone? Like how old were you when you got a cell phone? Yeah.
Ronald (20:31)
I was 16 and I got a cell phone because my parents were afraid that I was going to get lost when I started driving by myself. So I got my dad's secretary's old Nokia phone.
Nick Clason (20:45)
But so you're 16, right? And now you're the type of parent in that particular age bracket and demographic, you're sending your daughter's kids to camp. like that's all, know, cell phones from the age of 16 for you and on up. Like I was about the same, you know, so here in a couple of years when my kids are old enough to go to camp, I only, that's my like comfort zone, you know? And so like I get their scary stuff on it, but
Ronald (20:56)
Yeah. Yeah.
Nick Clason (21:14)
It's also gonna, it's not, you're not never gonna give your kid a cell phone. So how do we, and that's my thing, how do we help lean in and teach them the good things of it? Put good, good rules and guidelines and guardrails all around it so that you're hopefully protecting your kids and having conversations, you know, with it.
Ronald (21:25)
Yeah.
It's exactly that. It's continued conversations with kids. And even as a parent being okay to say, these are our non-cell phone times to where we're going to talk. I know parents who like to say no phones in the car because that 15 minute, 20 minute drive can be like, hey, we can actually have a conversation as we drive around. But just having conversations about your phone usage. Hey, who are you following? Hey.
Nick Clason (21:35)
That's it, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, so true.
Mm-hmm.
Ronald (22:00)
I or even telling like I will do this with my girls. I'll send them goofy videos and goofy memes Not because I think they're the funniest thing in the world But I'm trying to connect with them on their level like to my own kids and so like It's funny because they don't have social media what I'm doing is screen recording a funny reel I saw and then sending that to them as a message
Nick Clason (22:09)
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah dude. Yeah, for sure.
Bro, that's so committed, but I love it. Like that's, you you're like, we're not doing the social media thing, but I still want you to see this thing that I saw on social media and it's funny. So you'll like it. It's great.
Ronald (22:34)
Yeah, and I want you to know that I'm thinking of you throughout the day. I want you to laugh. This is a funny thing. And yeah, phones aren't the devil. Yeah, so it's trying to continually have a conversation with your kid. And even where you're saying, hopefully they're coming to you and being like, my friend is being dumb in the group chat. They go, okay, what did they say? Talking through what's good to text, what's not good to text, how...
Nick Clason (22:43)
That's great,
Ronald (23:02)
inflection matters and be like, Hey, I know you hate it, but this might be a FaceTime moment because it sounds like you guys are not seeing each other texting back and forth. Maybe you need to like actually talk.
Nick Clason (23:12)
Yeah. Yeah, man, that's so good. Well, anything else, Ronald, before we hang this sucker up?
Ronald (23:19)
I think the most important thing a parent can do with their kid and having a phone is have some guidelines and have lots of conversations. I think if you stick into those two places, like you're gonna be in a spot where maybe sometimes it's uncomfortable, maybe it's sometimes you're giving a little bit more, you're giving more unearned responsibility away than you're ready for, but like that's parenting as a whole. You don't want your 18 year old kid.
to get a cell phone and all social media all at once and be like, well, now I'm gonna learn everything. It's much, I think it's a much better experience for you and the kid if you walk them through the process together with you in the driver's seat sometimes and them in the driver's seat sometimes.
Nick Clason (24:04)
That's good. Yeah, actually, if anyone's listening to this, watching this like here live, like in the next several weeks, like that's what I'm doing on my podcast is I'm doing like some parent and kid kind of like tech talks. And so they're like aimed for youth pastors to like curate or have that conversation with like some downloadable worksheets and stuff like that that they can share. because I think that's, that's the key in all of this. Like it's, it's easier to draw a line in the sand and be like, no, this, like this is it. We're not doing that, but like we,
Ronald (24:16)
Mmm, yeah.
Nick Clason (24:34)
That's the phone has not allowed us to do that. It's not going away. So instead we got to figure out how do we lean into it into what's uncomfortable and maybe like uncertain waters, like lean into it to just open up that continued kind of conversation thing. So I think that's, that's so good. So, yo, if you're listening here for me on my channel, go follow everything Ronald's doing, middle school ministry podcast. It's dope. It's all about middle schoolers and he's got dope co-hosts.
Ronald (24:48)
Absolutely.
Yeah. I just want to thank everybody for listening to my podcast, the hybrid ministry podcast. Thank you so much. That's really great. No, and if you're, if you're listening to this from middle school ministry podcast, you should definitely go check out what Nick Clayson is doing over in hybrid ministry. Some really good stuff, some really helpful things to carry the conversation forward when it comes to the digital world and youth ministry.
Nick Clason (25:05)
that you've taken over.
Yeah, no, I love it. So good. And like I said, we both collabed on a little resource. It's free in both of our show notes, so go grab that. that's it, man. We'll talk to guys next time.
Ronald (25:34)
See you around.