Matt and Jeremy are joined by two of B.C.'s leading thinkers on forestry -- Prof. Gary Bull of UBC's school of forestry, who focuses on the economics of the forestry sector, and Torrance Coste, the leader of the Wilderness Committee, an activist organization that advocates for an end to old-growth logging. In this expansive conversation, the guests look beyond the activism at Caycuse and Fairy Creek to ponder the future of forestry in B.C. Whether it's from policy change or the extinction of old growth, the logging of ancient trees will some day come to an end. So what comes next? Along the way, Prof. Bull and Torrance discuss Indigenous land rights, the ecosystem services provided by old trees, the challenges of shifting to ecotourism and value-added products, and the impact of that now-viral image of a giant log rolling down a Vancouver Island highway. Finally, Torrance shares some nervy experiences he's had as an activist working in and with forest-dependent communities.