Hybrid Ministry

Episode 194: Same Small Group Leader for 7 Years vs Changing Every Year

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Small Group Leaders are the life-blood of any good student ministry.

But what is our most effective strategy to deploy them? Is it to saddle a great leader with students for their entire careeer? Or is it rather to introduce students to great leaders along their journey?

In this first debate style episode we have two amazing youth pastors, on two different sides of the argument, and they're going head to head, and you get to be the voter!

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🕰️TIMECODES
00:00 The Same or Different Small Group Leaders
02:33 Meet Stephen
04:25 Meet Isaac
05:25 Students should keep the same leaders
08:02 Students should change to different leaders
10:08 What if a student doesn’t like their leader?
11:56 What about Social Media?
13:05 How do you discern when to move a student?
16:21 How many leaders in each group?
20:08 The Ultimate Small Group Win
22:28 New Leader Every So Often Closing Statement
23:22 Same Leader Every So Often Closing Statement

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TRANSCRIPT
Nick Clason (00:00.103)
All right, well here we are. I mean, this is about to get really, really like real now because we have two amazing youth pastors with two completely different points of view on what's best for small group student leadership. And so again, by random draw that you'll have to trust because I'm a youth pastor, so I get paid to tell the truth. Isaac was randomly drawn to give his first two minute argument. So.

Isaac (00:04.782)

Hmm.

Stephen Rose (00:12.276)

You

Nick Clason (00:29.009)

We're about to put two minutes on the clock. are you ready?

Isaac (00:33.026)

Yeah, and just just clarifying because I want to make sure we are talking about leaders walking with students like. Are is it better? Is it better for them to go each year with them or every year? Let's recycle. That's the main question.

Nick Clason (00:41.915)

during

Nick Clason (00:50.235)

That's the question at hand. Yeah, I mean, we won't get into like the pizza lock-in, like social media debate. Those are, you know, those are meaningful ones in youth ministry as well, but this one in particular, yes, that's what I'd like you to argue. I hope that you came prepared for that and not like your pro lock-in debate, cause it might not fit. Real quick here at chat GPT, real quick, give me new notes. All right, are we ready?

Isaac (00:52.526)

Let's go.

Isaac (00:58.254)

Hmm.

Stephen Rose (01:10.656)

Thank

Isaac (01:11.534)

I have to change all my notes right now.

Stephen Rose (01:17.876)

Thank

Isaac (01:18.178)

Yeah, yeah, give me new notes. All right, yep, let's go.

Nick Clason (01:21.776)

Two minutes on the clock, take it away.

Isaac (01:24.654)

All right, two minutes, here we go. The key word that I'm looking at is discipleship and what does discipleship really look like? And so, and this is something that I've been kind of studying and learning about in my 17 years of youth ministry. And so I've changed and I've morphed, but I keep leaning more towards, man, let's really walk alongside these students. Here's some examples from the Bible. Jesus, he's come down, he's like, let me really pray over who I'm really going to invest in.

because he had other people that were interested in following him, but he said, no, I'm really going to invest in these 12. And he did that for three years. And then you have Paul and his relationship with Timothy, and he's being able to say things like, hey, Timothy, your grandmother, and he's naming family members and stuff, which I just don't think that you can do that in a year's time of knowing someone that you really want to get into that. So discipleship really means relationship and knowing.

How does someone come in and they're fully known and fully loved? So when you're with them longer, you know the students, you know their parents, you know the deaths that happened in their family, you know what sports they're involved in, you know the injury that set them back a few years prior. And so when they confess this thing, you go, I know the meaning behind that because I've had this relationship with you for a while.

I guess my main question that I would ask is why don't we go in and hire a new youth pastor every one year? You want a youth pastor to be there and and longevity breeds just this this trust that's that parents now have and I feel like as a youth pastor I'm trying to equip other leaders to come in and essentially be youth pastors And so I don't want to hire new youth pastors every year because I want that trust

and that relationship and that discipleship to happen. And that can only happen over a stretch of time and not hitting the reset button every single year.

Nick Clason (03:27.12)

Wow, did you rehearse that?

Isaac (03:31.49)

No.

Nick Clason (03:32.39)

Strong work, my man. Strong work. Alright, Steven. It's been laid down. Like, the challenge has been issued. Are you ready?

Stephen Rose (03:32.788)

Thank

Stephen Rose (03:42.404)

Yes, yes, I'm ready.

Nick Clason (03:43.354)

All right, and the microphone's working and the internet is streaming and yeah, yeah. All right, sweet. All right, bro, two minutes on the clock for you, Steven. Your side is you think that it's useful for students to have a variety of leaders year in, year out, or every so often. So, my friend, take it away.

Stephen Rose (03:46.548)

Internet's not crashing out right now.

Stephen Rose (04:07.504)

Awesome. Yeah, I love what you said about discipleship. Couldn't agree more. And for me, one of the things I think is so important and what we really focus on in my context is helping students own their faith by the time they graduate. And there's been like some studies done where the more, not like infinitely, but the more adults, specifically the number was around five. If you have five good relationships.

with adults who are like spiritual mentors or people that you know on at least a relatively deeper level, then you're much more likely to stick with a faith post-graduation. And I would argue that the reason for that is because their faith is hopefully being more grounded in Jesus than a specific leader. And they're rooted in Jesus. He is their firm foundation, not like an awesome leader or the youth pastor or something like that.

And so when you move, not necessarily every year, but every so often, you're just more likely to build relationships with more adults. And I view that as a huge win. And so what I like to see is them build relationships, be really intentional in the year or the two years span that they're with that leader, and then really focus on the transition so they can then build a new relationship.

with new leaders and the students stay together. So they're able to keep building those long-term relationships where they can grow alongside of each other. But the leaders can shift as far as small group goes. But the long-term relationships still stay the same. Just like a small group leader that I had when I was in eighth grade, I still got to talk to them later in later years and they still knew me and they still could pour into me and disciple me. And so the process

can keep happening even though we're still looking towards helping them meet more people and grow closer relationships with more people.

Nick Clason (06:13.38)

Right on time, my man, both of you. This might be the first time two youth pastors hit their time mark right when they're supposed to. That's crazy. All right, so what we'll do now, guess, I like this. I think we're gonna go to a more open forum, all right? So let's do two minutes, but here's the thing, just so you guys know.

Stephen Rose (06:20.041)

Hehehehehe

Nick Clason (06:40.804)

I don't need to include the clock. like if it's good and free flowing, like I'm just not going to interrupt it. Like don't, don't worry about it. I'm just trying to keep things moving and make it not be like a, you know, long and boring episode. so I'll put this on, but why don't you, why don't you guys ask some clarifying questions just like back and forth and just like answer, ask, answer, ask, answer. and then, when, when we feel satisfied with that, we'll, we'll move on to the like closing testimony or whatever, whatever they call it in the courtroom.

Stephen Rose (06:51.316)

Thank

Nick Clason (07:10.758)

I don't watch enough court TV. So, does anyone have like a question to start? Like to ask the other person? All right, great. You go first then.

Stephen Rose (07:11.092)

Sounds good.

Isaac (07:12.627)

Okay.

Stephen Rose (07:19.216)

Yeah, yeah I do.

Perfect. So Isaac, wonder in your context, if a student doesn't get, like we'll just say student doesn't get along great with a certain leader. What does that look like? Like do you go about that?

Isaac (07:40.396)

Yeah, man, that's great. Context, I think, matters a lot. So I've worked in a small church, a medium church, and a large church. So let's just talk about the numbers that I have here. It's weird to talk about that in church culture, but that helps context so much. So I have about 160 leaders. And in that, have, for sixth grade boys, we have five sixth grade boy groups.

Stephen Rose (07:45.246)

I agree.

Stephen Rose (07:55.732)

for sure.

Isaac (08:07.854)

And then each one of those groups has four leaders. And so I think that that helps so much for the person watching right now. They're like, well, this might make sense because of this. And the dynamics can shift because for you saying, hey, does a sixth grade boy, if he's if he's not enjoying this, then what? Well, he he can move to another group. He can go to one of the other four options. And that's easy. Now, when I was at a church for six and a half years and it was like

Stephen Rose (08:08.049)

Mm-hmm.

Stephen Rose (08:27.252)

Uh-huh.

Stephen Rose (08:30.675)

Right.

Isaac (08:37.59)

You have middle school boys, high school boys, middle school girls, high school girls. That's your option. Then it's like, well, what do we do when they don't like that person? And so for us in our context, it makes sense of if there's not someone getting along, there is another option in another group that they can go to.

Stephen Rose (08:44.444)

Right. I'm

Stephen Rose (08:58.772)

Sure. and

Nick Clason (09:00.39)

How do you guys, either of you, discern this is not a good fit and we need to quote unquote rescue the student from the fit? Or this is an opportunity to lean in and disciple the student to push through something more difficult and maybe getting along with their leader is like what God has for them in this season of their spiritual growth. Like how do you discern between those two? Because I feel like

Like a parent can come to you like they hate their leader and you want to like solve that so so that the kid doesn't get mad or the family doesn't leave the church or whatever. But I think sometimes it's like, dude, you need to stop being so entitled. You know what I mean? How do you how do know?

Stephen Rose (09:43.219)

Yeah, that's really good. For me, I tend toward having them stay either way because I don't want for students just to pick a leader based off of, I love this leader. I can't stand that leader, which by the way, my team is awesome. I have awesome leaders, all that. And so it's really a side point. But of course, if there was

if it was like coming to an unhealthy place, then I would say I'd be more willing to like figure it out. Especially if it was like a newer student, you know, who maybe isn't even a follower of Jesus yet. And okay, I'm trying to help them get comfortable first, help them feel accepted and have a good experience. And so that'd be a little different if it's someone I've been walking with for a while. And then, hey, it's time for you to grow up and, you know, and be...

be mature about this and grow in your maturity. I part of that is definitely not being in your favorite spot at all times.

Isaac (10:46.552)

Yeah, that's good. I think that, you know, scripture says if at all possible as far as it depends on you, live at peace with with everyone. And if there's some kind of disunity there, obviously that's what the enemy is trying to seek out and bring to light is some kind of disunity. So it's our jobs as the shepherds of that to say, well, what's causing this? And so it should start with a conversation with both student and leader and saying,

Nick Clason (10:46.587)

Good.

Stephen Rose (10:56.372)

Mm.

Isaac (11:14.926)

Why? Why is there a disunity and how can we go towards unity? What's the conversation? Maybe you just need to say some things. Let's get it out on the table. Truth is gonna be great. Let's get it out on the table. But if it becomes a thing where it's like, we're not coming here. My kid doesn't wanna show up. I'm even pro, well, there's also another church in town because...

Stephen Rose (11:29.78)

Yeah.

Isaac (11:42.742)

The gospel doesn't just happen at this address. It happens in lot of places in discipleship. And so hopefully I am then connecting with other youth pastors in the area where I can then give a trusted, hey, why don't you go over here to this church? Because this youth pastor is also going to teach the Bible. Discipleship is also happening. But I'm not nervous to, I don't want to say threatened. It's not threatened, but to give, go ahead. If you can't grow here.

Ultimately, what we are concerned about for you as a student is your growth. Go grow anywhere.

Stephen Rose (12:14.045)

Yeah.

Nick Clason (12:17.776)

Good.

Stephen Rose (12:18.238)

That's good.

Isaac (12:19.83)

Steven, got a question for you if I'm allowed to ask. Yeah, because I love what you said about having five good relationships with adults. Yes, man, let's try to, as youth pastors, bring in as many adults and as many leaders as possible in their time of being there. What does it look like in your context for how many leaders do you have in each group? Yeah, what does that look like for you?

Stephen Rose (12:21.982)

Sure.

Nick Clason (12:22.638)

Yes, yes, go.

Stephen Rose (12:39.718)

.

Stephen Rose (12:47.234)

Yeah, we have two leaders in each group. so, over time, would naturally develop relationships with multiple, I mean, hopefully, in prayerfully, you would develop relationships with your small group leaders in that time. And for us, we're, I guess, the medium church size. And so,

Like for high school, for example, we have two high school guys groups, underclassmen and upperclassmen currently. And so you would meet four of the people right then and there. And then hopefully, like even like myself and some other people, because certainly our youth ministry is not the only context which you can have a relationship with an adult. But as far as what we're trying to do, it fits that mold pretty well.

Isaac (13:30.51)

Sure, yeah.

Isaac (13:38.978)

Yeah, so when you say upperclassmen leader and, what is it called? Underclassmen? That just sounded weird. Underclassmen? That just sounds underwear. Anyhow, when you have both of the, so the upperclassmen, are you saying then that those two leaders are with them for two years?

Stephen Rose (13:46.608)

under underclassmen.

Stephen Rose (13:58.579)

Yes.

Isaac (13:59.648)

Okay, so it's kind of like a hybrid then of it's not, I'm not thinking every year it's I'm still kind of building this. I'm in this context. So it's still once because for me, I don't even know if I'm pro you should be with them for seven years. I do like the for me, three years of middle school, you get a new high school leader, because there's just a difference between high school and middle school.

Stephen Rose (14:16.923)

Mm-hmm, right.

Nick Clason (14:16.966)

Mm-hmm.

Stephen Rose (14:22.587)

Thank

Stephen Rose (14:27.586)

Right.

Isaac (14:27.84)

If there is someone that's committed for seven years, my hope is that they are bringing in dads, moms, and other people to it. Because I think that what you said is key. They need to have five adults in their life or more that where they can say, it's not just one person that believes this. It's not just their characteristics, but that in discipleship, they are inviting others to be a part of it as well. If you're going to do that seven year plan. Yeah.

Stephen Rose (14:32.35)

Thank you.

Stephen Rose (14:37.765)

So.

Right.

Stephen Rose (14:46.388)

you

Yes. Right.

Nick Clason (14:57.05)

Yeah, yeah. And I'll just say from a youth pastor logistical standpoint, you get someone to commit for seven years, that's amazing. Are they still committed to loop back down and start a sixth grade group? Going from being a 12th grade leader to a sixth grade leader is tough. And so I've been in situations where they're committed all the way through, but then I'm always having to recruit.

Stephen Rose (15:17.416)

Hey.

Nick Clason (15:24.462)

at the entry point because no one wants to loop back down. They feel like they've quote unquote done their time and they want to be involved in student ministry, but then they want to be involved in more of like a consulting role or a coaching role. And it's like, I love that for you, but I really could use a sixth grade leader, my friend. And so that's been, that's been my experience when they loop all the way through as we, we pool all the way down at the end of the quote unquote conveyor belt, if you will. And I got some really great leaders who aren't doing ministry anymore, but if you're doing

Stephen Rose (15:30.42)

That's how you do it. Okay.

Stephen Rose (15:53.716)

What am I? You just answered about the full seven years or if it's more of a middle school to high school, because I'm I agree. I'm a little less.

Nick Clason (15:54.694)

Like if you're like, yo, you're the underclassmen leader and you're just going to be an expert in ninth and 10th grade. Like, and then you'll see every kid's face, hopefully as they, as they loop through. Um, it's just, it's just the way I think about it.

Isaac (16:08.684)

Yeah, I love that. Steven, did you have any other questions?

Stephen Rose (16:23.832)

cause I can see there's definitely real positives in doing both ways. And, but the seven years is the one where I really, I don't want to say worry, but for lack of a better word, worry about like a students attaching to a certain leader and, that, is a good thing. but especially if they're, if they're not a part of the church at large, like the whole church body, and they're just attached to youth group and just attached to the leader. I just saw so many examples before I even got in youth ministry.

And then those kids, the leader's gone, they're done with youth ministry and they're they're toast. know, they just kind of walk away. And so I guess it was really just on my heart to like, I don't want to see like that happen. And I know there's other intentional ways of working against that too. But that was just really like on my heart.

Isaac (17:12.408)

Yeah, yeah, I would. Here's I mean, Nick, you kind of set us up. You're like, haha, caught you. You're in a trap coming debate this. And so I'm going to I'm going to, you know, share. The perspective of everyone wins, I guess, because here's what I would rather see if this is a would you rather question of would you rather have one leader who intentionally disciples a student for one year or have a leader that walks alongside?

Stephen Rose (17:20.83)

But.

Isaac (17:41.448)

and invest in a student for seven years, I would say give me the one year intentionally disciple. Because so often we recruit leaders that they won't say, I'm just a babysitter. They're not going to say that. We're not going to say that. But if you're like, we're just hanging out, I'm going to their games and they're doing some good things, but they're not intentionally discipling, we're still missing out. And so I would say that the key thing for me is find the leader that's going to disciple.

Stephen Rose (17:46.484)

Yeah.

Isaac (18:09.998)

Which means that they are really getting in and saying do you know Jesus? What is he teaching you? Are you opening up the Word of God? Are you praying? Are you building a community around you? Where are you serving? How's your evangelism life? And they're really working out all of these disciplines And it's more than just let me show up to your play Let me high-five and we'll go get coffee together because you can just hang out But you're not just being friends. You're intentionally discipling so

Nick Clason (18:25.51)

.

Stephen Rose (18:30.04)

Right.

Nick Clason (18:33.03)

you

Isaac (18:37.986)

Give me the one year intentional disciple.

Nick Clason (18:38.34)

Yeah.

Stephen Rose (18:39.572)

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Nick Clason (18:42.166)

That's good. That's good for youth pastors. That's good for Like that's good for this whole conversation. Just like having like a well-rounded perspective of it. It's bad for Trying to elicit emotion and you guys like hating each other. So Way to be a Christian way to ruin YouTube, but no, I agree and

Isaac (19:03.661)

Yeah, yeah. And he's a Cavs fan. Yeah, this is great. We love each other. We're best friends now. Thank you, Nick.

Stephen Rose (19:07.704)

Hey, I know

Nick Clason (19:09.51)

Yeah, you're so welcome. Congratulations. Yeah. Well, let's do like your final statement, right? We'll just do a minute on the clock or less. Just give like your final word, kind of like put a bow on it. And then, yeah, then I guess we'll take it from there. So who went first last time? I think it was Isaac, right? So Steven, we'll have you minute on the clock, finalize your argument. You ready? All right, let's go.

Stephen Rose (19:36.663)

Yep.

All right, so I believe that transitioning through different small groups is best for students because they get to build multiple relationships with adults, which helps them own their faith, not just the youth's faith or my faith or their leader's faith, but their faith in Jesus. And so I think it's best to move them through. And then I also, as a side note, I think it can create a spot for leaders to star in their roles where, hey, if I'm always with freshmen girls,

then I'm gonna be able to really get good at welcoming them. Or if I'm always with the senior and junior guys, I'm gonna get really good at helping them through this transition as they get older, as their problems change. But they kinda are the same perpetually for new juniors, new seniors. And so they get to start starring in their roles as they get year after year of experience with them.

Nick Clason (20:36.282)

Nice, good job. All right, Isaac, one minute on the clock. Take it away.

Isaac (20:43.66)

Awesome. Quantity will produce quality. The more that you're hanging out with someone, the better the conversations. And so getting someone there for a length of time, it's just going to produce the quality that we're looking for. It avoids the six months, like, do I actually know this person? Can I make that inside joke? I accidentally said something about their parents or

Stephen Rose (21:07.284)

You you

Isaac (21:12.498)

Whatever all their life story the more opportunity that you have with their story the more that they can feel Fully known fully seen and fully loved which really I think just shows grace more discipleship more and and what Jesus was Really trying to aim for when he said this is what a disciple maker

Nick Clason (21:38.15)

Nice, strong work, both of you.

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Hybrid MinistryBy Nick Clason