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Episode 22 - Interview with Dr. Dowling-McClay on professional identity formation
Check out Part 1 of our interview with Dr. KariLynn Dowling-McClay, Assistant Professor of Pharmacy Practice at East Tennessee State University Bill Gatton College of Pharmacy. Dr. Dowling-McClay explains professional identity formation, imposter phenomenon, and the role those play in the lives of student pharmacists. She also shares her own journey to becoming a professional pharmacist.
Transcript
Introduction Teaser:
KariLynn Dowling-McClay
Doing that job, I had never felt more connected to the community and a sense of responsibility for the well-being of the community.
Main Episode:
Michele Williams
Welcome to White Coat Radio, a podcast from East Tennessee State University Bill Gatton College of Pharmacy in Johnson City, Tennessee. Each episode, we cover a wide range of topics about the pharmacy school experience, from study tips to deep dives with faculty and student pharmacists. I'm one of your hosts, Doctor Michele Williams, assistant professor and director of academic success.
Stephen Woodward
And I'm Stephen Woodward, marketing and communications manager. Today we are talking to Doctor KariLynn Dowling-McClay, assistant professor of pharmacy practice again. Her interests include women's health, substance use disorders, and public health. Welcome to White Coat Radio, Doctor Dowling-McClay.
KariLynn Dowling-McClay
Thank you. I'm excited to be here to talk with you all.
Michele Williams
I've learned so much from you. One of the things that I think is a favorite topic of yours is professional identity. And so I thought maybe we could talk about that a bit today. And just kind of in general, what is professional identity and what role does it play for student pharmacists?
KariLynn Dowling-McClay
Sure. I think it's a really interesting topic. And you're correct—it's something I've enjoyed bringing into the classroom. And honestly, I'm still learning about it. So every year when I first come to the topic again, I have more to add, I have some new perspectives, so it's one of those fun ones where it just keeps evolving. But it is a concept that really exists for any profession that's out there.
KariLynn Dowling-McClay
So that includes pharmacy, other health professions, and even things outside of health care, like lawyers—really any group that is united by the career they do or something they have in common. And so the process of professional identity formation for student pharmacists is going through this internalization of thinking, acting, and feeling like a pharmacist.
KariLynn Dowling-McClay
So it's really the idea that they start out as a student. They want to become a pharmacist. But what is this process that they go through to actually be a pharmacist by the time that they graduate and go out into their career? And so I think for a lot of students—and it would be myself included when I went to pharmacy school—I knew I was going through this four‑year curriculum, working really hard, but I kind of felt like I was just a student. And then at graduation or the day after, I would be a pharmacist, like I was just flipping a switch.
KariLynn Dowling-McClay
Which is, yes, flipping a switch—but actually there’s evidence that shows it’s a continual process that really starts from the moment someone is welcomed into a profession.
Michele Williams
Wow.
KariLynn Dowling-McClay
So yes—and it could even be earlier for students who have worked in pharmacy environments or had exposure before school. It may start at different times for different students, but definitely by the time they come here for orientation, they're all on that journey together. And like I said, it’s an internalizing process.
KariLynn Dowling-McClay
Everything they're doing is contributing to how they will use thought processes to solve problems like a pharmacist. It's their sense of belonging—feeling like they're a member of the profession. In recent years, we’ve tried to bring that to the forefront to help students be aware this process is happening. That awareness can also help in times they might struggle with belonging or feel discouraged.
Michele Williams
That makes so much sense. And I imagine there are times when a person really starts to feel like a pharmacist or really feels like they're thinking like a pharmacist—and then times when they don’t feel like that, or feel like they’re pretending to be a pharmacist… like imposter phenomenon.
KariLynn Dowling-McClay
Yes, yes. And unfortunately, I think that is a pretty universal experience. It will hit at different times for every person going through this process. But part of that process is going through those feelings of doubt and coming out the other side and realizing that you do belong in that profession—that you actually are a member of that profession and you're not just portraying that.
Michele Williams
Not fooling people.
KariLynn Dowling-McClay
Right. You actually are. And this has been studied some in pharmacy and a whole lot in medicine and nursing. The scientific field is still learning more about it, but it seems to be a common experience or a common way of understanding how students reach that endpoint of being a member of the profession.
Michele Williams
Yeah, it's good that that's being studied now, because I'm guessing that for a long time people thought they were the only one who felt like they were pulling something off.
KariLynn Dowling-McClay
Yes. Those feelings of imposter phenomenon or feeling like you don’t belong can lead to a lot of doubt—and it can be very isolating. Something we try to do in the program is help students realize they’re not alone when they struggle with those feelings. Guaranteed, there are other people in the room who are or have or will feel the same way.
Stephen Woodward
That's really interesting. So what got you interested in that topic to begin with?
KariLynn Dowling-McClay
Honestly, it wasn’t something I had ever heard about as a pharmacy student. Looking back, I know I went through the process, but I didn’t know there was a term for it or that it was a formal concept. It really wasn’t until I became a faculty member and started interacting not just with pharmacists but with educators.
KariLynn Dowling-McClay
Through pharmacy education conferences I started hearing these buzzwords—PIF, professional identity formation. Once I heard it again and again, I felt like, okay, there must be something here I need to know about.
KariLynn Dowling-McClay
I dug into it, went to talks, looked up resources. The more I read, the more it clicked that it is something always happening for our students, whether we acknowledge it or not.
KariLynn Dowling-McClay
I like to lift the hood on the car for students—not keep everything behind the scenes. So just like we talk about educational outcomes, I like to talk about PIF and help students acknowledge the process while they’re experiencing it.
Stephen Woodward
What do you think causes that imposter syndrome for health care professionals?
KariLynn Dowling-McClay
I think part of it is a disconnect. When you're brand new to something, you don't know what you don't know. Then as you gain more experience, you learn some things—but you also become aware of all the things you haven’t mastered yet.
KariLynn Dowling-McClay
When there's that imbalance, it weaves into imposter feelings. People think, “I can’t think like this, I can’t solve these problems,” when really they’re just learning. That’s part of becoming the professional—they’re still growing toward that endpoint.
Michele Williams
Do you think comparing themselves to others fosters that feeling? Thinking someone else knows all the answers, or their parents are pharmacists, or they’ve worked in a pharmacy for five years… What am I doing here?
KariLynn Dowling-McClay
I think that's actually a huge part of it. Our society and educational system prime young people to measure themselves against others constantly. Many things students must do to get into pharmacy school involve measuring up.
KariLynn Dowling-McClay
You can’t just turn that off. You have to reframe how you see yourself, and not always be in competitive mode.
KariLynn Dowling-McClay
And students are surrounded by people they want to emulate—faculty, preceptors. They’re fully developed pharmacists. But students may not realize those role models had steppingstones too. They struggled in school too.
Michele Williams
That's great. Thank you so much for sharing that. In addition to the PD course that you and I co-coordinate, what are some of the other courses in which you teach?
KariLynn Dowling-McClay
I think I have a really fun job because I get to pop up in some unexpected places throughout the curriculum. I love working with P1s in the PD series. But I also get to teach women’s health topics—early on in self-care in P1 spring, and later in pharmacotherapy.
KariLynn Dowling-McClay
I usually work with groups in the communications course or the APP program. And I take fourth-year students on an academia rotation. They spend a month with me at the college—not as students, but seeing behind the curtain how we do our jobs as educators.
Michele Williams
That's great.
Stephen Woodward
Recently you spoke to incoming P1 students and asked them to reflect on the question, “Why are you here?” What is the why that led you to become a pharmacist?
KariLynn Dowling-McClay
This is a fun exercise. I wish someone had advised me to do this when I started pharmacy school. Honestly, maybe someone did—I just didn’t listen.
KariLynn Dowling-McClay
Sometimes it's hard to put into exact words, which is why writing it down helps. For me, my “why” comes from a deep sense of caring for the community and wanting to find my role in making the community as healthy as possible.
KariLynn Dowling-McClay
Before this conversation, I pulled out my pharmacy school application essay. I wanted to see what I wrote back then. To my relief, I used very similar terminology.
KariLynn Dowling-McClay
At the time, I had started working in a community pharmacy to make sure that’s what I wanted to do. I wrote about how doing that job, I had never felt more connected to the community and felt a responsibility for the well-being of the community. That thread has carried through my entire career.
Stephen Woodward
Okay. Thank you for sharing.
Michele Williams
Thanks. What do you think inspired that desire to be of service to the community?
KariLynn Dowling-McClay
For me, it’s rooted in my upbringing. My dad is a pharmacist—he’s retired now—but he worked in community pharmacy in our hometown for close to 40 years.
KariLynn Dowling-McClay
Growing up, everywhere we went—dinner, shopping—he’d run into someone who knew him as their pharmacist. Most conversations weren’t health related. He was just well known, well liked, held in high esteem because of his care.
KariLynn Dowling-McClay
I grew up in a small Montana town where community mindedness was baked in—what do we do for each other because we all know each other?
KariLynn Dowling-McClay
I probably didn’t realize it at the time, but those experiences made me see that if I wanted to do something meaningful for my community, pharmacy was a powerful way to do it.
Michele Williams
Wow. That's great. Doctor Dowling-McClay, thank you for joining us today. It was a pleasure speaking with you and learning more about you.
Stephen Woodward
Thanks for listening to White Coat Radio. If you haven't already, be sure to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you listen to podcasts. To learn more about East Tennessee State University Bill Gatton College of Pharmacy, visit us at etsu.edu/pharmacy or follow us on social media @ETSUPharmacy. We'll see you next time.
View all episodes
By East Tennessee State UniversityCheck out Part 1 of our interview with Dr. KariLynn Dowling-McClay, Assistant Professor of Pharmacy Practice at East Tennessee State University Bill Gatton College of Pharmacy. Dr. Dowling-McClay explains professional identity formation, imposter phenomenon, and the role those play in the lives of student pharmacists. She also shares her own journey to becoming a professional pharmacist.
Transcript
Introduction Teaser:
KariLynn Dowling-McClay
Doing that job, I had never felt more connected to the community and a sense of responsibility for the well-being of the community.
Main Episode:
Michele Williams
Welcome to White Coat Radio, a podcast from East Tennessee State University Bill Gatton College of Pharmacy in Johnson City, Tennessee. Each episode, we cover a wide range of topics about the pharmacy school experience, from study tips to deep dives with faculty and student pharmacists. I'm one of your hosts, Doctor Michele Williams, assistant professor and director of academic success.
Stephen Woodward
And I'm Stephen Woodward, marketing and communications manager. Today we are talking to Doctor KariLynn Dowling-McClay, assistant professor of pharmacy practice again. Her interests include women's health, substance use disorders, and public health. Welcome to White Coat Radio, Doctor Dowling-McClay.
KariLynn Dowling-McClay
Thank you. I'm excited to be here to talk with you all.
Michele Williams
I've learned so much from you. One of the things that I think is a favorite topic of yours is professional identity. And so I thought maybe we could talk about that a bit today. And just kind of in general, what is professional identity and what role does it play for student pharmacists?
KariLynn Dowling-McClay
Sure. I think it's a really interesting topic. And you're correct—it's something I've enjoyed bringing into the classroom. And honestly, I'm still learning about it. So every year when I first come to the topic again, I have more to add, I have some new perspectives, so it's one of those fun ones where it just keeps evolving. But it is a concept that really exists for any profession that's out there.
KariLynn Dowling-McClay
So that includes pharmacy, other health professions, and even things outside of health care, like lawyers—really any group that is united by the career they do or something they have in common. And so the process of professional identity formation for student pharmacists is going through this internalization of thinking, acting, and feeling like a pharmacist.
KariLynn Dowling-McClay
So it's really the idea that they start out as a student. They want to become a pharmacist. But what is this process that they go through to actually be a pharmacist by the time that they graduate and go out into their career? And so I think for a lot of students—and it would be myself included when I went to pharmacy school—I knew I was going through this four‑year curriculum, working really hard, but I kind of felt like I was just a student. And then at graduation or the day after, I would be a pharmacist, like I was just flipping a switch.
KariLynn Dowling-McClay
Which is, yes, flipping a switch—but actually there’s evidence that shows it’s a continual process that really starts from the moment someone is welcomed into a profession.
Michele Williams
Wow.
KariLynn Dowling-McClay
So yes—and it could even be earlier for students who have worked in pharmacy environments or had exposure before school. It may start at different times for different students, but definitely by the time they come here for orientation, they're all on that journey together. And like I said, it’s an internalizing process.
KariLynn Dowling-McClay
Everything they're doing is contributing to how they will use thought processes to solve problems like a pharmacist. It's their sense of belonging—feeling like they're a member of the profession. In recent years, we’ve tried to bring that to the forefront to help students be aware this process is happening. That awareness can also help in times they might struggle with belonging or feel discouraged.
Michele Williams
That makes so much sense. And I imagine there are times when a person really starts to feel like a pharmacist or really feels like they're thinking like a pharmacist—and then times when they don’t feel like that, or feel like they’re pretending to be a pharmacist… like imposter phenomenon.
KariLynn Dowling-McClay
Yes, yes. And unfortunately, I think that is a pretty universal experience. It will hit at different times for every person going through this process. But part of that process is going through those feelings of doubt and coming out the other side and realizing that you do belong in that profession—that you actually are a member of that profession and you're not just portraying that.
Michele Williams
Not fooling people.
KariLynn Dowling-McClay
Right. You actually are. And this has been studied some in pharmacy and a whole lot in medicine and nursing. The scientific field is still learning more about it, but it seems to be a common experience or a common way of understanding how students reach that endpoint of being a member of the profession.
Michele Williams
Yeah, it's good that that's being studied now, because I'm guessing that for a long time people thought they were the only one who felt like they were pulling something off.
KariLynn Dowling-McClay
Yes. Those feelings of imposter phenomenon or feeling like you don’t belong can lead to a lot of doubt—and it can be very isolating. Something we try to do in the program is help students realize they’re not alone when they struggle with those feelings. Guaranteed, there are other people in the room who are or have or will feel the same way.
Stephen Woodward
That's really interesting. So what got you interested in that topic to begin with?
KariLynn Dowling-McClay
Honestly, it wasn’t something I had ever heard about as a pharmacy student. Looking back, I know I went through the process, but I didn’t know there was a term for it or that it was a formal concept. It really wasn’t until I became a faculty member and started interacting not just with pharmacists but with educators.
KariLynn Dowling-McClay
Through pharmacy education conferences I started hearing these buzzwords—PIF, professional identity formation. Once I heard it again and again, I felt like, okay, there must be something here I need to know about.
KariLynn Dowling-McClay
I dug into it, went to talks, looked up resources. The more I read, the more it clicked that it is something always happening for our students, whether we acknowledge it or not.
KariLynn Dowling-McClay
I like to lift the hood on the car for students—not keep everything behind the scenes. So just like we talk about educational outcomes, I like to talk about PIF and help students acknowledge the process while they’re experiencing it.
Stephen Woodward
What do you think causes that imposter syndrome for health care professionals?
KariLynn Dowling-McClay
I think part of it is a disconnect. When you're brand new to something, you don't know what you don't know. Then as you gain more experience, you learn some things—but you also become aware of all the things you haven’t mastered yet.
KariLynn Dowling-McClay
When there's that imbalance, it weaves into imposter feelings. People think, “I can’t think like this, I can’t solve these problems,” when really they’re just learning. That’s part of becoming the professional—they’re still growing toward that endpoint.
Michele Williams
Do you think comparing themselves to others fosters that feeling? Thinking someone else knows all the answers, or their parents are pharmacists, or they’ve worked in a pharmacy for five years… What am I doing here?
KariLynn Dowling-McClay
I think that's actually a huge part of it. Our society and educational system prime young people to measure themselves against others constantly. Many things students must do to get into pharmacy school involve measuring up.
KariLynn Dowling-McClay
You can’t just turn that off. You have to reframe how you see yourself, and not always be in competitive mode.
KariLynn Dowling-McClay
And students are surrounded by people they want to emulate—faculty, preceptors. They’re fully developed pharmacists. But students may not realize those role models had steppingstones too. They struggled in school too.
Michele Williams
That's great. Thank you so much for sharing that. In addition to the PD course that you and I co-coordinate, what are some of the other courses in which you teach?
KariLynn Dowling-McClay
I think I have a really fun job because I get to pop up in some unexpected places throughout the curriculum. I love working with P1s in the PD series. But I also get to teach women’s health topics—early on in self-care in P1 spring, and later in pharmacotherapy.
KariLynn Dowling-McClay
I usually work with groups in the communications course or the APP program. And I take fourth-year students on an academia rotation. They spend a month with me at the college—not as students, but seeing behind the curtain how we do our jobs as educators.
Michele Williams
That's great.
Stephen Woodward
Recently you spoke to incoming P1 students and asked them to reflect on the question, “Why are you here?” What is the why that led you to become a pharmacist?
KariLynn Dowling-McClay
This is a fun exercise. I wish someone had advised me to do this when I started pharmacy school. Honestly, maybe someone did—I just didn’t listen.
KariLynn Dowling-McClay
Sometimes it's hard to put into exact words, which is why writing it down helps. For me, my “why” comes from a deep sense of caring for the community and wanting to find my role in making the community as healthy as possible.
KariLynn Dowling-McClay
Before this conversation, I pulled out my pharmacy school application essay. I wanted to see what I wrote back then. To my relief, I used very similar terminology.
KariLynn Dowling-McClay
At the time, I had started working in a community pharmacy to make sure that’s what I wanted to do. I wrote about how doing that job, I had never felt more connected to the community and felt a responsibility for the well-being of the community. That thread has carried through my entire career.
Stephen Woodward
Okay. Thank you for sharing.
Michele Williams
Thanks. What do you think inspired that desire to be of service to the community?
KariLynn Dowling-McClay
For me, it’s rooted in my upbringing. My dad is a pharmacist—he’s retired now—but he worked in community pharmacy in our hometown for close to 40 years.
KariLynn Dowling-McClay
Growing up, everywhere we went—dinner, shopping—he’d run into someone who knew him as their pharmacist. Most conversations weren’t health related. He was just well known, well liked, held in high esteem because of his care.
KariLynn Dowling-McClay
I grew up in a small Montana town where community mindedness was baked in—what do we do for each other because we all know each other?
KariLynn Dowling-McClay
I probably didn’t realize it at the time, but those experiences made me see that if I wanted to do something meaningful for my community, pharmacy was a powerful way to do it.
Michele Williams
Wow. That's great. Doctor Dowling-McClay, thank you for joining us today. It was a pleasure speaking with you and learning more about you.
Stephen Woodward
Thanks for listening to White Coat Radio. If you haven't already, be sure to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you listen to podcasts. To learn more about East Tennessee State University Bill Gatton College of Pharmacy, visit us at etsu.edu/pharmacy or follow us on social media @ETSUPharmacy. We'll see you next time.