On this episode of Speak Out With Tim Wise, Tim speaks with antiracism educators and authors, Robin DiAngelo and Debby Irving. They’ll discuss the ways in which white obliviousness to the reality of racism, and "white fragility" as DiAngelo calls it—which causes such backlash when matters of race and privilege are raised—both complicate efforts to produce racial equity in American institutions. They’ll explore how white fragility manifests, why it’s so toxic for both people of color and (ironically) white folks, and how even “nice white people” can derail conversations and efforts aimed at rectifying racism unless the phenomenon is understood and confronted.

They also discuss the inherent tensions they all feel as whites doing antiracism work, in which they confront and critique privilege, on the one hand, while most assuredly benefitting from it on the other. How should whites navigate that space? How can we do so in a more accountable way to people of color? And how have they come to see the proper role of whites in the movement for racial justice?