How do we understand ethics in a secular world? In this episode, Isabel and Jonah talk to Geoffrey Moore, about his new book: ‘The Infinite Staircase’. We attempt to weave a thread from metaphysics to consciousness, and culture, right through to ethics. We explore how each of these ‘stairs’ is dependent upon the one that precedes it, how reliable the concepts of good and bad are and how they can be grounded in a secular worldview.