On this episode of the Crazy Wisdom Podcast, I, Stewart Alsop, sit down with Federico Ast, founder of Kleros, to explore how decentralized justice systems can resolve both crypto-native and real-world disputes. We talk about the pilot with the Supreme Court in Mendoza, Argentina, where Kleros is helping small claims courts resolve cases faster and more transparently, and how this ties into a broader vision for digital governance using tools like proof of humanity and soulbound tokens. We also get into the philosophical and institutional implications of building a digital republic, and how blockchain can offer new models of legitimacy and truth-making. Show notes and more about Federico’s work can be found via his Twitter: @federicoast (https://twitter.com/federicoast) and by joining the Kleros Telegram community.

Check out this GPT we trained on the conversation!

00:00 Introduction and Guest Welcome

00:38 Claros Pilot Program in Mendoza

02:00 Claros and the Legal System

05:13 Personal Journey into Crypto

07:16 Challenges and Innovations in Kleros

18:02 Proof of Humanity and Soulbound Tokens

26:54 Incentives and Proof of Humanity

27:01 Interesting DAO Court Cases

27:21 Prediction Markets and Disputes

31:36 Customer Service and Dispute Resolution

38:21 Governance and Online Communities

40:02 Future of Civilization and Technology

47:16 Bounties and Legal Systems

49:06 Conclusion and Contact Information

Key Insights

1. Decentralized Justice Can Bridge the Gap Between Traditional Legal Systems and Web3: Federico Ast explains how Kleros functions as a decentralized dispute resolution system, offering a faster, more transparent, and more accessible alternative to conventional courts. In places like Mendoza, Argentina, Kleros has been piloted in collaboration with the Supreme Court to help resolve small claims that would otherwise take years, demonstrating how blockchain tools can support real-world judicial systems rather than replace them.
2. Crypto Tools Are Most Powerful When Rooted in Real-World Problems: Ast emphasizes that his motivation for building in the blockchain space came not from hype but from firsthand experience with institutional inefficiencies in Argentina—such as corruption, inaccessible courts, and predatory financial systems. For him, crypto is a means to address these structural issues, not an end in itself. This grounded approach contrasts with many in the space who begin with the technology and try to retrofit a use case.
3. Proof of Humanity and Soulbound Tokens Expand the Scope of Legitimate Governance: To address concerns over who gets to participate in decentralized juries, Kleros integrates identity verification through Proof of Humanity and uses non-transferable Soulbound Tokens to grant eligibility. These innovations allow communities—whether geographic, organizational, or digital—to define their own membership criteria, making decentralized courts feel more legitimate and relevant to participants.
4. Decentralized Courts Can Handle Complex, Subjective Disputes: While early versions of Kleros were built for binary disputes (yes/no, Alice vs. Bob), real-world conflicts are often more nuanced. Over time, the platform evolved to support more flexible decision-making, including proportional fault, ranked outcomes, and variable payouts. This adaptability allows Kleros to handle a broader spectrum of disputes, including ambiguous or interpretive cases like those found in prediction markets.
5. Incentive Systems Create New Forms of Justice Participation: Kleros applies game theory to create juror incentives that reward honest and aligned decisions. In systems like Proof of Humanity, it even gamifies fraud detection by offering financial bounties to those who uncover duplicate or fake identities. These economic incentives encourage voluntary participation in public-good functions such as identity verification and dispute resolution.
6. Kleros Offers a Middle Ground Between Corporate Automation and Legal Bureaucracy: Many companies use rigid, automated systems to deny customer claims, leaving individuals with no real recourse except to complain on social media. Kleros offers an intermediate option: a transparent, peer-based adjudication process that can resolve disputes quickly. In pilot programs with fintech companies like Lemon, over 90% of users who lost their case still accepted the result and remained customers, showing how fairness in process can build trust even when outcomes disappoint.
7. Digital Communities Are Becoming the New Foundations of Governance: Ast points out that many people now feel more connected to online communities than to their local or national institutions. Blockchain governance—enabled by tools like Kleros, Proof of Humanity, and decentralized IDs—allows these communities to build their own civil infrastructure. This marks a shift toward what he calls a “digital republic,” where shared values and participation, rather than geography, form the basis of collective decision-making and legitimacy.