In this episode of the Refuse to Lose Podcast, for the first we are stepping outside Rugby League and I couldn't think of a better guy to do it with then Kieran Jack. Kieren is a former captain of the Sydney Swans who played 256 games in the AFL. But he is so much more than just an athlete.

In this episode Kieren touches on his early life growing up as the son of a Balmain Tigers legend. He touches on his transition into the AFL and how he turned himself from a draft reject into a premiership winning superstar who played in three grand finals. He also lifts the lid on the entire Adam Goodes booing saga for the very first time. Giving an insight in to what it was like to be a teammate of Adam's during the AFL's darkest days. He talks about the anger, the confusion and the great sorrow it caused him and how he still looks back on what he could have done differently at the time.

Kieren also talks about retirement and how it's allowed him to throw himself into community work and help him become an advocate for a number of important issues. I've done a lot of sports interviews for my job and this is seriously one of the most honest, intellectual and eye opening conversations I've ever had. There is also some great locker room stories ranging from the Dalai Lama, to toothbrushes. Please enjoy my chat with Kieren jack.