Join Birmingham Civil Rights National Monument superintendent Kristofer Butcher as he interviews Denise Gilmore. Ms. Gilmore serves the City of Birmingham as the Senior Director in the Division of Social Justice and Racial Equity in the Mayor's office. The City of Birmingham and the National Park Service co-own and co-manage the A.G. Gaston Motel, and collaboratively support the other stakeholders that make up the National Monument

Welcome to We Will Rise: National Parks and Civil Rights. Close your eyes and imagine a National Park. Are you picturing waterfalls and mountains? Or do you think of Dr. King's childhood home, Japanese internment camps, and a school that became a battleground for racial integration? National Parks aren't just wilderness. They are spaces of remembrance, founded to preserve the stories of who we are and how we came to be. National parks inspire us to do better, be better, to climb mountains both physical and figurative. Join park rangers, researchers, authors, and activists as we discuss what liberty and justice for all means on our public lands.

Kris: Hello, and welcome to the We Will Rise: National Parks and Civil Rights Podcast. I'm Kris Butcher, the superintendent of Birmingham Civil Rights National Monument, and I am joined today by Denise Gilmore. Denise serves the city of Birmingham as the Senior Director in the Division of Social Justice and Racial Equity in the Mayor's office. She started her career in the city as a Director of Cultural Preservation in 2018. Previously, she worked in Washington, DC at the National Trust for Historic Preservation, which, she worked in Detroit, Louisville, Philadelphia, and Atlanta on projects that focused on using historic preservation as a catalyst for neighborhood revitalization. She hails from Kansas City, Missouri, where she has reported the barbecue is superb. Denise, welcome. Good morning.

Denise: Well, good morning and thank you, Kris. So you know that I'm a barbecue snob, so you might want to start our conversation off that way.

Kris: I in no way want to be confrontational about barbecue.

Denise: I am so delighted to join you today for this conversation.

Kris: Yes, thank you so much for joining us. And again, I think it's such an important conversation, and your broad experience, I think, is going to be so informative and inspirational and challenging as we go into the second century of the National Park Service existence. And in 2021, we're having these conversations, unfortunately, are as relevant today as they've ever been in history. So before we get into the really hard hitting topics and subjects, if you could, can you talk a little bit about yourself and how you ended up coming to Birmingham?

Denise: Okay, let me go back to Kansas City because I think that really is probably the beginning of the work that I'm doing today. It goes back to Kansas City, which, as you said, that is my home. I am officially a Kansas Jayhawk, but in terms of claiming teams and the Chiefs and the Royals, so I claim them all. But my work in the cultural preservation and equitable redevelopment space really began at 18th and Vine in

Kansas City, which is the historic African American neighborhood where the Negro Leagues were founded. And, of course, the heyday of the jazz scene was in the 18th and Vine Jazz District. And so I had the opportunity in Kansas City to really lead the redevelopment and revitalization of the 18th and Vine Jazz District. Again, because of desegregation, it had been a good 40 years that the district had really just declined and there hadn't been investment in the district. And I always want to acknowledge our then-Mayor, Emmanuel Cleaver, who is Congressman Emmanuel Cleaver today. He has the vision as mayor that it was so important that this history and culture be saved. I had the opportunity to join the Jazz District and then ultimately to lead the revitalization. And so one of the things that when we talk about the work today, I have to reflect on the fact that I've been in this equitable development and equitable opportunity space long before - it's fashionable now, but 18 years ago, people really weren't talking about that. In fact, people would run the other way when you talked about equity and preserving African American culture and history. It has been really a privilege to be able to know that the work that I'm doing and have done has been to help preserve these African American spaces and places. From there, I had the opportunity to go to the National Trust for Historic Preservation, really as focusing on helping frame the National Trust approach to community development and revitalization. And it comes as no secret to you, Kris, that the historic preservation field has largely been a white led field, and I would say probably up until really about the last five to seven years when there's been a turn to really understanding the importance of saving places for people of color, for Black, indigenous, people of color, for women, LGBTQ, to broaden those stories that are being preserved and told. And so I had the opportunity at the Trust to work in different cities, including Washington, DC, in the Anacostia neighborhood, but also Birmingham was one of the cities in that portfolio and had an opportunity with other colleagues from the Trust to come to Birmingham in 2017 and lead a preservation leadership training. Really, it was for Birmingham, but it was regional in that people from across the state were invited. And then we also had some national participants. And that was really my first opportunity to be in Birmingham and to engage Birmingham, looking at the cultural space. From that, I'll kind of fast forward because I know that we have a lot of other things to get to. But from that, I had the opportunity, of course, you know, 2017 was a pivotal year. So President Barack Obama had just created the Birmingham Civil Rights National Monument before he left office. And so at the federal level, there was a national election, and then locally in Birmingham, there was a municipal election, and Mayor Randall Woodfin was successfully elected in 2017. And so you kind of had that whole year because the political changes at the local and federal level that while the National Monument had been created, there really hadn't been anything really focused to really stand it up. I like to say it was beautiful words on paper, but now how do we put the there there? I had opportunity, Mayor Woodfin invited those of us that had been working on this prior to his election to come and to meet with him and his key leaders at the time to really talk about how do we stand this thing up. So, long story short, the Mayor invited me to come and join his team to help stand up the National Monument. So that's what brought me to Birmingham. I came as Director of Cultural Preservation because the Mayor recognized that Birmingham's legacy and history was important and sacred and that it really needed focused attention on saving these historic sites.

Kris: Wow, that's great. It's amazing how all of the things that have happened up until this point really kind of came together in this opportunity that we have in this position and role that you're in now. It's really great and inspiring how things like that happen. So besides Birmingham Civil Rights National Monument, working for the National Trust, what's been your experience with National Parks? I'm going to assume that Birmingham is your favorite National Park site, selfishly, but what is your favorite National Park maybe experience and why?

Denise: So that's kind of interesting because you're right. In terms of favorite, it's really hard to pick because for different reasons, of course, I've had the opportunity to experience different national parks for different reasons. So I would say for historic significance, of course, having the opportunity to work in the historic Anacostia neighborhood, the Frederick Douglas Historic Site, his Cedar Hill home. One of the opportunities I had in DC at the Trust was to really work with the local neighborhood preservationist to make sure that we could preserve the homes there, which is hard in DC. So I'm going to even pause before I say this, to try to ensure that incumbent residents could stay, just because of the gentrification pressures in Washington DC. But again, it was another place that it was hard to navigate that neighborhood. And you see that Cedar Hill home site and just know that this was one of our premier thought leaders and so far ahead of his time. I never could figure out too, with all those steps, I said, boy, they really were in good shape.

Kris: No doubt.

Denise: So that one is one really that was inspiring to me and to really be able to work closely around the historic site in that neighborhood. Another one that I think that always just touches me is the African Burial Grounds in New York City. And again, it's just a thought to understand that these bodies were buried without ceremony, without recognition, without…there. And so that one is always inspiring to me. When I get to New York, I try to go there just for the peace of the site. And so I'll say just for the natural beauty. I have a lot, I don't have just one. But for simple natural beauty, I love Muir Woods and that's one that actually I saw something today that they were trying to protect the trees from the fires that are burning right now, and of course, the Grand Canyon, because I had an opportunity to experience that ground level and took a helicopter ride over it and promised that I would never do that again.

Kris: Yeah. Wow. It's really interesting and amazing to hear when people talk about their experiences. And so many people like, their first reaction is Grand Canyon or Muir Woods or Yellowstone or Yosemite. But I think I'm with you. For me, the most inspirational are a lot of the ones that you talked about, especially when you contrast, like, going to Arlington National Cemetery and seeing the respect and the reverence that occurs around the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier. And then you contrast that with African Burial Grounds. Wow, this is a really stark difference and a very telling and powerful moment to think about. And honestly, we could go have entire additional conversations about gentrification pressures and what that means and the legacies of desegregation and how that's impacted communities and what that means.

So we won't crack into that. We'll maybe have to schedule you for a follow up discussion. But you had mentioned you originally came here as the Director for Cultural Preservation. So can you talk about the transition into your current role as the Senior Director in the Division of Social Justice and Racial Equity? Kind of what inspired that change, and why do you think it's important to the city and to you?

Denise: So, in 2018, Mayor Woodfin set out a strategic vision for his administration. And one of those goals included to establish an Office of Social Justice and Racial Equity to focus on creating a just and equitable city. And so because of my work, not only within cultural preservation, but as I said to you, that my work really predates the work in Birmingham and going back to Kansas City and looking at really working in the equity space. And so our office was created really to be the lens for the city, to help really employ social justice as a core principle in the city's policies and the operations and decision making through advocacy, engagement and implementation. Our office is really charged with bringing an equity lens to policies, initiatives and practices. So we had separate offices that were all really impacting the social justice and racial equity spaces, so our LGBTQ liaison on our Office of Peace and Policy, our special initiatives, we had a faith-based outreach, immigrant affairs. So we had people that were doing different things, but all really operating in this space. And so the mayor's vision really was to try to consolidate those efforts through this office. And then, of course, I was pleased when he asked me if I would lead the team. And so I still maintain the cultural preservation portfolio. Kris, as you well know, I'm really good at doing two or three jobs.

Kris: That's the understatement of the day there, Denise, yes, ma'am.

Denise: So I maintain our cultural preservation portfolio in addition to leading the Division of Social Justice and Racial Equity.

Kris: Fantastic. So obviously you've touched on it and helped us understand what racial equity and social justice means. But can you help us understand how these principles are fundamental to your work? You kind of talked about you're wanting it to be a part of everything that the city does. But in kind of maybe a layman definition, what does that mean? What is racial equity and social justice in kind of a day to day context?

Denise: So I'll start with, social justice is the belief that everyone deserves equal economic, political, civil and human rights and opportunities. Racial equity is the treatment of people of all races that really results in equitable opportunities and outcomes. So racial equity often addresses systemic and structural change. While there may be a focus on antiracism, it's not just the absence of discriminatory practices and inequities, but the presence of deliberate and intentional practices to change and challenge systems and to redistribute power in an equitable manner. So racial equity is a process. And so these principles are fundamentally embedded in our work in the city through social equity, which includes the space that we work in, Kris, the cultural preservation and historic preservation and promotion of tradition, stories and cultures. Birmingham's history really requires that we respect these legacies of the past, which was as much about social and economic justice as it was about civil rights. My position as Director of Cultural Preservation was unique at the time. There were not positions equivalent to that in other cities and it was really a focus on the cultural assets and the preservation. And I also say promotion, right. So how do we actually develop them for tourism? How do we make sure that people appreciate and they're educated about these sites as well? And so that was a very unique position at the time to be really focused on preservation, both cultural and historic. So when we look at other cities, I'm going to say maybe positions that were similar but not specific. Other cities have like Cultural Affairs or Multicultural Offices and they primarily focus on observances, special events, festivals. So really to maybe celebrate the diversity of the city, if that makes sense, which is equally important. But to draw the contrast between the position that was focused on recognizing that Birmingham had really special, significant historic resources that needed focused attention. Now, the position as Senior Director of Social Justice and Racial Equity was also a unique position. So some cities have offices that focus on diversity and inclusion, which is very common cities, universities, corporations that focus on diversity and inclusion. What you're seeing now is that expansion to diversity, equity and inclusion. So there's more focused attention on not just kind of an equal representation, but the opportunities to make sure that we are really focused on equitable opportunities for all. And so I guess I've had really the opportunity, thanks to Mayor Woodfin, to really kind of be a trailblazer in those two areas as far as municipal government is concerned. So it has been really a privilege to serve in both capacities. It's never a dull moment, Kris. There's so much work that needs to be done, as you well know, through your lens at the Park Service.

Kris: Yeah, you're exactly right. It's amazing to have the opportunity and the privilege to work in Birmingham, like you said, that is really blazing the trail and being a leader in this arena and having these conversations and with the Park Service, I think everybody that at least has a passing interest in kind of the Park Service as an organization understands the challenges that it's had with its representation, or lack thereof, being more than 60% male, the workforce, I think almost 80% white. So thinking about the Park Service recently celebrated its first kind of century, its anniversary. What is a National Park Service or any organization, right, that truly values and strives for racial justice and social equity, what does that look like in kind of talking about the access and representation and all the things we've discussed up to this point?

Denise: So I would say, first of all, it's really just acknowledgment of the work that has to be done. So when you have data that tells you that your workforce is you said 80%...

Kris: Sorry, it's 60% male…

Denise: …and 80% white. So that's not even reflective of the diversity of the country, right? And so when you really think about that so, first of all, we really have to acknowledge the work that has to be done. So I'm saying “we” but within the National Park Service, acknowledge where you are, look at your data, and then be willing to assess what that means. So look at your organizational efforts. Does it really reflect the diversity? Look at your top leadership staff, in particular, friends organizations, the people that supports the work of the National Park Service. So it's much more than being caretakers of sites with diverse history, right? It's internal. It's looking at your leadership and holding yourself accountable to establish measurable outcomes. So if you're starting with those stats, then what any organization would say is, okay, this is where we are, but this is where we want to be. And so the leadership would pick something, a five year plan or something, some concrete, measurable numbers that they can work towards so that we can be more diverse and more equitable. But I would also say with numbers like that, it also tells us that it's structural, that it's systemic. It's the way that your hiring practices are. It is that, for whatever the reason, there are barriers to women and Black, indigenous, people of color being able to be in the National Park System from an employee and a leadership standpoint. And so it really calls for really candid, honest conversation when you sit in a conference room, and I'm just going to say, you have 20 leaders and you look around and they all kind of look the same, somebody has to say, why do we look like this? And what we need to do, in a real serious manner, to start changing it? And I would guess that it's structural. So some of it really comes down to the things that, doing things the way you've always done, doesn't work. And so you've got to change that. So I just kind of think about, for example, when my daughter was in college and of course they look for these internship opportunities over the summer. And a lot of the internships, particularly in DC, were unpaid internships. And so a lot of Black children were not able to do these unpaid internships at these, either prestigious…either Capitol Hill or other organizations because they needed to earn money over the summer. Well my daughter actually had the opportunity to do an unpaid internship just because of other scholarship opportunities that she had. But when you look at that, that, again, is the basis for other opportunities. So if you're not able to have basic level entry, it's really hard then later on to say that these people are prepared for leadership. Not knowing the inner workings of the Park Service, but Kris, you asked me, so, you know, I'm going to opine, I would say that it really needs a real hard look at those numbers and then a leader to say, “We're going to change that.”

Kris: Wow. Yeah. I think you absolutely hit the nail on the head. There's not just one challenge, right. There are multiple. The barriers to entry and just the intake, but also something at the very foundation. Right. If you keep doing the same thing for 100 years and it has always looked the same, then that's probably one of the issues, right. And like you talked about unpaid internships, that's not necessarily, I think most of our internships, there's at least a stipend that comes along with it. But for so many employees, specifically in the park ranger field, which is what, so many people who visit a national park site, their first and in many cases only experience with the National Park Service or employees, it's not uncommon to be a seasonal, which is four to six months over multiple years at different places across the country, and then having to find a different job somewhere else until you get enough hours in that you can qualify for a hiring authority to be brought into the Park Service. And it's a huge barrier for people who can't have that level of uncertainty for where their paycheck is going to come in when this temporary assignment is over.

Denise: That's an absolute barrier because especially if you think about people young and starting their careers, they're probably looking for at least something that resembles full time employment. But that's a perfect opportunity for the Park Service to really examine that and to change their structure and their systems so that it becomes more available to people of color.

Kris: Right.

Denise: So, yeah, it's a big undertaking.

Kris: And it requires all of us, and it requires, I think, voices like yours that have, again, such a diverse experience and robust experience to help us examine ourselves, because that's always hard to find, maybe identify your own shortcomings or weaknesses. So have trusted voices help you identify areas that you can be better, I think is so important. So thank you so much for your observation. I think I think it's spot on.

Denise: Well, you have to be willing to actually acknowledge the work that needs to be done.

Kris: Right.

Denise: You have to acknowledge that you're not where you want to be. And so what do we need to do to get there? Does that mean that we need, for example, implicit bias training for leadership and for staff and for people to understand that we all have biases and they show up different ways? And so it's not just a racial bias. They're all different types of biases that we have. So I think it's really recognizing that and having a leader that's willing to say, “We're going to change this. We're not going to continue to do what we've always done.”

Kris: Right. Well, I think, again, I can't thank you enough for one of the conversations that we had about and you kind of challenging me, and to look at where are we getting services from. And essentially, where are we putting our financial resources as the Park Service to procure services and supplies? Are we patroning minority owned businesses and women own businesses, equitably. Right. Or are we going to kind of the same old tried and true places we've always gone? Because that's easy, right. That's quick, right.

Denise: And those vendors you've always worked with, they have learned how to navigate the system. Where the BIPOC community, maybe they've not. And so that means are there extra steps that we have to take? Do we need to do workshops to train, to understand how to complete the RFPs, to how do we become a vendor? And it takes some extra effort, as opposed to just, “We posted it and these are the people that responded, so we're done.” I think that that's the other thing, not just the Park Service. You said earlier this is really the challenge for the country in many different aspects, is to really look at how we have done, really, I'm going to say business as usual. And that to rethink that if we really want to reach people that we've not reached, we really have to change our behaviors and our approach.

Kris: Yeah, that's so true. So we can pivot a moment. Birmingham Civil Rights National Monument is fairly unique in the National Park Service. There are almost 425 National Parks Service sites across the country, some large, some small, some old, some new. But Birmingham is fairly unique in that it was established with the intent of having federal ownership or the piece of the Park Service directly owns and manages be very small in the footprint of the national monument boundary. And everything else within it is either a city owned property or park or building, nonprofit, a church, something like that. And all of us are charged and obligated to manage this together collaboratively and to work together, which is a challenge, right. The more people in a room you have, the harder it is sometimes to get consensus, but it's also an unbelievable opportunity to bring together people who've been doing this work forever and lived this story and truly embody everything that the park and the Park Service wants to do. Can you talk a little bit about some of the successes and the things that have been achieved specifically in the civil rights district, in the national monument, but really even citywide in regards to racial equity and social justice?

Denise: So, Kris, basically your comment is really one of the things I think is really one of the biggest successes, is that we have all come together to work for the preservation of these historic sites. And I think actually to form a collective vision for social justice, racial equity, preserving the history, to ensure that I always say current generations, because we can't skip to future generations without making sure we're engaging current generations. And so that's one of the things that I really think that we can't overlook, was our ability for all of us to come together and to work collectively toward this thing that was decreed as the Birmingham Civil Rights National Monument. And it's our collective efforts that are really making the national monument a success. And I think that, again, we have so many opportunities within the various sites to be able to tell these stories. But also, for example, right, 16th Street Baptist Church, they were offering a COVID vaccine. So, I mean, you think about it, so history, yes, current day needs, absolutely. So being responsive to the needs right now. And so it has, of course, the foundation of the history to build upon. But all of these sites, Historic Bethel is actively working to help redevelop and to stabilize the neighborhood around the church. So the sites become a catalyst for other revitalization and other opportunities around these historic sites. And of course, with Urban Impact leading the northwest downtown planning process, it really gives an opportunity to really look at redeveloping, revitalization of the broader civil rights district. So I am really proud of our collective, collaborative efforts and the fact that as far as the city, the city is able to support these efforts, we're able to bring resources, even our work on the Gaston Motel, to be able to understand that the work that we're doing is really not for us, it's for future generations and it's for posterity sake as well. So I'm really pleased with our collaborative work.

Kris: I'm so glad you said that because I think, again, so many national park sites stand as monuments or testaments to something that happened in the past and we can infer and take lessons and apply them, like you said, to the current generation but also to the future. But here in Birmingham, the sites that make up the national monument and countless others in the city, their work and advocacy and their fight for what we're talking about didn't stop, right? They are still leaders in their communities and in their city and in this world. And it's such an inspiring place to be because it is really hallowed ground all across the city. So we've talked about a lot about, I think, organizational change which can be kind of overwhelming, especially if you feel like you're at maybe the lower rungs of an organization. You're not in the boardroom or whatever. But obviously we all have a responsibility as individuals to be leaders and to be people who are championing and fighting for equity and justice. Can you help tell and help us talk about how can an individual contribute towards achieving these goals? What can I do as a single person to be on the front lines fighting for this thing or these things that I believe in and think are important?

Denise: So, first of all, recognizing that racial equity is not a program. It's not something that we just plan, we do and we're done. That, it really is about a process. It's an approach. It's a mindset with achievable outcomes. And so it's really about a day to day practice of how we shift our behaviors and powers. So what does that mean? Does that mean that we adopt antiracist principles? That we are holding ourselves accountable at all levels? We're trying to work together to transform our respective spaces and then really just the commitment to continued improvement and education. So for an individual, if you're not really understanding or familiar with racial equity and racial equity principles I always say education is really probably the best place to start with most things is to inform yourself. So does that mean that maybe you take a training on implicit bias or antiracist principles so that you understand how you show up? Are there things that you're doing individually that you could take a different approach or a different attitude or that you didn't even recognize, maybe, that you had certain, I'm going to say prejudices meaning as prejudging people, right? I would say that certainly as an individual, start with your own knowledge and your own understanding of how you show up in your spaces and what you can do to contribute to a better workplace, it could be your church, it could be your school, wherever you are. But in this case, we're talking about the spaces in which we work. And it becomes important because we interact with the public in the work that we do. I think it's even more important for training for park rangers, training for our respective staff, to understand - and leadership - to understand some of these, I'm going to say, kind of basic principles in regard to social justice and racial equity.

Kris: That's so powerful. And you're right, they are basic. They should naturally just be a part of everything we do. But I think to your point earlier, assuming that is really what partly we're failing because there is some ignorance and a lack of understanding, education about what this means. And so thank you so much for taking the time to help us have this dialogue and hopefully begin to expose this idea, this kind of way of being an employee, a citizen, just a human being of valuing social justice and racial equity and understanding that there are things in place, systematic things in place that have been in place for so long that prevent that equity and truly are challenges for so many of our neighbors and our family and our friends to succeed. And again, just thank you so much for taking the time to speak to us. Is there anything, as we kind of wrap up here that you'd like to say?

Denise: Again, thank you, Kris. So as we really think about our conversation today, just recognizing that from the city's perspective, I'm here because Mayor Woodfin was intentional in that he wanted an administration to reflect his goals and his values, which included embracing and directing the organization to be deliberate in assessing our policies, our practices, initiatives, and really in recognition that we are, as is the National Park Service, a public service organization, and in that we serve the public, we have to demonstrate a commitment to practicing social justice and racial equity principles, basically with the goal to make sure that we can achieve equitable outcomes. That honest assessment of where we are is really the starting point for that. I have the opportunity now to participate with a cohort of cities through the Living Cities Network Closing the Gap Initiative that really strives to help municipalities work on racial equity efforts to close the wealth gap. It has been really for this past year that we participated and so that has allowed us access to resources, access to training. It really becomes important not only just to say we're going to be in this space, but that we're educated. We also have the opportunity within the city to participate as part of the Complete Communities Initiative with Implicit Bias training for all of the city's department and division directors. So again, understanding that the policies and the way that we show up is representative of how the city shows up and what a resident sees. And I would say that if you just extrapolate that out, that when the Gaston Motel is complete and we have visitors coming in, we want to make sure that all of the folks who staff that site and as well as our other sites, that we understand the space that we're, in we understand that we're able to interact with our visitors in a way that is respectful of them, of their culture and is welcoming. And so I would just say, in closing, that our work is just really too important not to give it our full selves. And I actually would even say that what we have the privilege to do, Kris, is not even work. It's really a calling. It's because we get to preserve these historic sites for future generations and understand that we do step on sacred ground every day that we show up at these sites.

Kris: There's absolutely no way to improve upon that. So I will just say I could not agree more. Thank you so much. And I hope all of us have been inspired and challenged to, like you said, embody and live these principles in every day and everything that we do. Denise, thank you so much for your time.

Denise: Thank you, Kris. I really appreciate it. Thank you.

Ranger: This is We Will Rise: National Parks and Civil Rights. Thanks to the Psalters for use of their song Turn Me Round. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe to our series. Until next time.

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